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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
A continuing vexation over the seeming lack of reverance shown by Galadriel to Gandalf, despite her knowledge of what he is and her high esteem of him. I hope they will rectify this in the coming films.
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Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Feb 7 2013, 4:27pm

Post #26 of 56 (299 views)
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Even then, she did not get her way... [In reply to] Can't Post

Galadriel did want Gandalf to lead the White Council. However, Saruman insisted that, as head of the Order of the Istari, it was his responsibility and perogative to head the Council as well.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Kassandros
Rohan


Feb 7 2013, 4:40pm

Post #27 of 56 (304 views)
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On a more serious note... [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought that Gandalf and Galadriel were both fantastic in AUJ, equal to (in the case of Gandalf) or exceeding (in the case of Galadriel) their performances in LotR. I had no problems with their interactions with each other or anyone else. I respect your right to disagree with the film's portrayal, but I do think you're taking things a bit too far when you use start using words like shameful.

The only interaction between Galadriel and Gandalf that Tolkien portrayed was Galadriel asking Gandalf to lead the White Council and Gandalf declining and Galadriel nursing him back to health after his encounter with the Balrog. The filmmakers seemed to portray the former in Galadriel's alliance with Gandalf over Saruman in AUJ and I imagine that we'll likely see a transposed version of the latter in DoS based on the rumors of Galadriel rescuing Gandalf. We don't really know the details of their interactions. The filmmakers make their choices. You disagree with those choices. That's fine and even interesting to read, but I don't see why we need to make this a great moral failing on the part of Jackson, Walsh, and Boyens. More criticism and less outrage, basically.

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 7 2013, 4:44pm

Post #28 of 56 (292 views)
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It wasn't Saruman's insistence but Gandalf's refusal that settled the matter. [In reply to] Can't Post

Saruman could not have made them appoint him to head their council, he was expressly forbidden from doing such a thing. He could not have leaned on Gandalf about it either. The Wizards ranking was not command oriented. I.E. they were able to operate independant of one another, and higher members like Saruman and Gandalf were not empowered to give orders to lower members like Radagast.

Gandalf expressly refused the position. Saruman took it, and resented that it had been made to Gandalf to begin with.

You are quite right on the main point however. She did not have her way in the matter.

In Reply To
Galadriel did want Gandalf to lead the White Council. However, Saruman insisted that, as head of the Order of the Istari, it was his responsibility and perogative to head the Council as well.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Feb 7 2013, 4:45pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 7 2013, 4:49pm

Post #29 of 56 (302 views)
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Actually, there is a very intimate encounter between them which Tolkien relays, [In reply to] Can't Post

though it is in the off limits Unfinished Tales, wherein there is a version of him bringing the Elessar Stone as a sign from The Valar. Galadriel laments that surely The Valar no longer give thought for Middle-Earth, whereupon Gandalf assures here that it is not so, and om token of that presents her with the Stone, returned to Middle-Earth by the will of Yavanna, and as a temporary gift of hope to Galadriel, but not for her to keep indefinitely, but to pass on to he who would bear the same name as the stone.

In Reply To
I thought that Gandalf and Galadriel were both fantastic in AUJ, equal to (in the case of Gandalf) or exceeding (in the case of Galadriel) their performances in LotR. I had no problems with their interactions with each other or anyone else. I respect your right to disagree with the film's portrayal, but I do think you're taking things a bit too far when you use start using words like shameful.

The only interaction between Galadriel and Gandalf that Tolkien portrayed was Galadriel asking Gandalf to lead the White Council and Gandalf declining and Galadriel nursing him back to health after his encounter with the Balrog. The filmmakers seemed to portray the former in Galadriel's alliance with Gandalf over Saruman in AUJ and I imagine that we'll likely see a transposed version of the latter in DoS based on the rumors of Galadriel rescuing Gandalf. We don't really know the details of their interactions. The filmmakers make their choices. You disagree with those choices. That's fine and even interesting to read, but I don't see why we need to make this a great moral failing on the part of Jackson, Walsh, and Boyens. More criticism and less outrage, basically.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Feb 7 2013, 4:57pm

Post #30 of 56 (277 views)
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This makes me wonder... [In reply to] Can't Post

...did Elrond knew the true nature of Gandalf and the other Wizards? And what about Bilbo, Frodo, or Aragorn?
The latter probably figured it our after Gandalf's resurrection...?

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 7 2013, 5:05pm

Post #31 of 56 (269 views)
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Elrond knew. Cirdan and Glorfindel knew. Others of the Eldar may have guessed, but they did not definitively know until the end of The Third Age. [In reply to] Can't Post

Legolas may have deduced it after the ressurection. Possibly Aragorn may have as well, being lore learned. As to Bilbo and Frodo. . . I doubt it. Pippin wonders what Gandalf is at one point, but I doubt any of the hobbits were learned enough in the lore of The Powers to have ever surmised such a thing. Even the kings of Men did not know such things, nor even Treebeard, though he too may have had suspicions. But, in terms of certain knowledge, only Galadriel, Cirdan, Elrond and Glorfindel are known to have known beyond doubt.

It is likely that, ere the departure at The Havens, the whole Fellowship had better knowledge, as the Wizard became more open and revealing, at least concerning the fact that he had been sent, became more himself upon his return as The White, and would be going "back" not merely "to" when he took the ship from Mithlond Into The Ancient West.

In Reply To
...did Elrond knew the true nature of Gandalf and the other Wizards? And what about Bilbo, Frodo, or Aragorn?
The latter probably figured it our after Gandalf's resurrection...?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Feb 7 2013, 5:08pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 7 2013, 5:06pm

Post #32 of 56 (274 views)
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UT material [In reply to] Can't Post

That would make a stunning scene.

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


Kassandros
Rohan


Feb 7 2013, 5:07pm

Post #33 of 56 (266 views)
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I'm not sure how they could portray this. [In reply to] Can't Post

The filmmakers have pretty strictly avoided the divine mythology of Middle-Earth. The closest they've come is portraying Gandalf being sent back by some sort of divine force. But nothing about the Maiar or Valar is ever explained. I think if they included a scene like this, it'd be very confusing. Gandalf, in the movies, is a very mysterious and very poweful wizard who seems to have some connection to the Divine and seems to work to influence the fate of Middle Earth, but that's pretty much as far as it goes. Of course, I thought Galadriel was respectful of Gandalf, so I didn't really have any problem. I do see why you did, but I still think it's a bit unfair to speak so harshly about the portrayal. It's a very subtle point of interpretation. It's not as if they've gone and turned Gandalf into court jester or something.

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Feb 7 2013, 5:11pm

Post #34 of 56 (268 views)
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I agree... [In reply to] Can't Post

that would be breathtaking. It would also sort of 'prophesize' Aragorn as king.

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Feb 7 2013, 5:13pm

Post #35 of 56 (257 views)
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Thank you... [In reply to] Can't Post

for your answer. Interesting to read, that was :)

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 7 2013, 5:18pm

Post #36 of 56 (256 views)
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I wouldn't expect them to portray this scene. They can't. They COULD [In reply to] Can't Post

certainly have some quiet scene where Galadriel laments, or questions whether The Powers (who are mentioned in passing in the appendices and thus not banned from mention) still give thought for the troubles of those on Middle-Earth, and where Gandalf assures her that Middle-Earth, its people and creatures, are still very much in their thought etc. I don't expect it, but they would not be violating clauses and conditions, so long as they didn't start naming names.

My problem is that she seems like his supervisor, Kassandros. She seems like Saruman's co-captain and Gandalf's boss, to anyone who doesn't know already better. Read the reviews. Many reviewers commented on "Gandalf's mentors and superiors," at the council. His who? His what? None of them had a strict mentor/pupil relationship with him, anymore than anyone can at various points learn something from anyone else, and only Saruman could be considered his superior in a general sense. Her interaction with him, while I loved the intimacy of it, did not seem appropriately different from her interactions with Aragorn or Frodo, despite the vast differences in the nature of their relationship.

In Reply To
The filmmakers have pretty strictly avoided the divine mythology of Middle-Earth. The closest they've come is portraying Gandalf being sent back by some sort of divine force. But nothing about the Maiar or Valar is ever explained. I think if they included a scene like this, it'd be very confusing. Gandalf, in the movies, is a very mysterious and very poweful wizard who seems to have some connection to the Divine and seems to work to influence the fate of Middle Earth, but that's pretty much as far as it goes. Of course, I thought Galadriel was respectful of Gandalf, so I didn't really have any problem. I do see why you did, but I still think it's a bit unfair to speak so harshly about the portrayal. It's a very subtle point of interpretation. It's not as if they've gone and turned Gandalf into court jester or something.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 7 2013, 5:19pm

Post #37 of 56 (258 views)
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You are [In reply to] Can't Post

Very welcome. Glad I could be of aid.
I would add that, at some point, men realized that they were NOT human men. "They came to fear them, even when they loved them," though not by any attempt by the Wizards to make them afraid. Men merely noted that they not only had many powers, but also did not die even as the fathers and sons, mothers and daughters of Men were born, and aged and passed away. Many held them to be of Elf kindred, hence Gand Alf, Wand Elf, though that was not the case, as we know.

In Reply To
for your answer. Interesting to read, that was :)


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Feb 7 2013, 5:22pm)


dubulous
Rohan

Feb 7 2013, 5:54pm

Post #38 of 56 (242 views)
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I hope they will do no such thing [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think there's anything that needs to be rectified in the manner in which either Gandalf or Galdriel has been portrayed. Gandalf the Grey is supposed to a humble character whose power, though great, is not very visible or tangible before he becomes Gandalf the White. Galadriel, also great in her way, is not bound by those restrictions.


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 7 2013, 5:59pm

Post #39 of 56 (247 views)
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For love of a Wizard. Its threads like this [In reply to] Can't Post

that brought me back to TORn after many years of lurking only. Thank you for your passion and knowledge and for a fascinating discussion!

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 7 2013, 8:45pm

Post #40 of 56 (218 views)
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Humble in part by choice, Dubulous. Humple, not subserviant. [In reply to] Can't Post

Certainly there are moments when his great power should and does show through. And certainly Galadriel is great. But she is NOT his superior, nor his director, nor his commander, nor his supervisor. He is not a supplicant of Galadriel, and that much should be made clear. To suggest that she is somehow in a position of authority over him, in anyway, or that because of his humble bearing she is actually the Holy one and he a mere acolyte of her glory, is terribly misleading and contrary to the facts.

And what are you saying exactly, by "hoping they do no such thing"? Are you seriously saying you would have a problem with Gandalf, the emissary of The Valar, giving any advice or being seen to be capable of advising the Lady of Lorien? Really? Are you honestly saying he should seem like her subsidiary, and that the lay audience should be given that impression? If so I must fervently and emphatically disagree with your notions.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Feb 7 2013, 8:48pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 7 2013, 8:49pm

Post #41 of 56 (212 views)
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*blushes mightily* [In reply to] Can't Post

BlushEvilThank you, and I am glad that you found the topic interesting Smile

In Reply To
that brought me back to TORn after many years of lurking only. Thank you for your passion and knowledge and for a fascinating discussion!


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Kassandros
Rohan


Feb 7 2013, 9:21pm

Post #42 of 56 (210 views)
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I have no idea why someone would think she was his superior. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't see it at all. They seemed like old friends to me. They formed an alliance, of sorts, in a council of four. If anything, since they needed to subvert Eldrond and Saruman, Galadriel and Gandalf seemed to be ranking below those two.

Your idea is certainly interesting and I think that scene could work. I don't know if there's enough context about Galadriel's background for it, but it certainly has merit and could be a moving scene.

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 7 2013, 9:54pm

Post #43 of 56 (208 views)
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A LOT of people thought so. Problematically, the people who lacked the prior knowledge to know better. [In reply to] Can't Post

Consider: From the start Elrond says to Gandalf, "it is not me to whom you must answer." Cue Galadriel entrance. I know that Elrond was not referring to her (technically Gandalf doesn't have to answer to Saruman either, nor do any of the other Istari, but we will let that be a seperate matter), but it is not made abundantly clear. There is great ambiguity, and where there is such ambiguity after a line like that, there is bound to be misunderstanding.

Within the council scene she does seem, at points, more authoratitive than Saruman (though I do note only the Wizards are seated, perhaps as a denotation of honour. . . or perhaps because they are the only ones burdened by any semblance of age?). And, in the bulk of their interactions, she seems to be instructing Gandalf (or else giving the authoritative word of approval to his deeds/intentions), instruction which he at no point really reciprocates.

I still took some of this as non-dominant interaction, but PRIMARILY because I already know the history, relationship and background of both players. For someone without any of the pre-existing knowledge, I can very easily see how the relationship could be badly miscontstrued, and I think that is terribly unfortunate.

In Reply To
I don't see it at all. They seemed like old friends to me. They formed an alliance, of sorts, in a council of four. If anything, since they needed to subvert Eldrond and Saruman, Galadriel and Gandalf seemed to be ranking below those two.

Your idea is certainly interesting and I think that scene could work. I don't know if there's enough context about Galadriel's background for it, but it certainly has merit and could be a moving scene.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Rostron2
Gondor


Feb 7 2013, 10:01pm

Post #44 of 56 (197 views)
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It's a different canon now [In reply to] Can't Post

Movie canon versus book canon. No one complained (except me) when JJ Abrams changed Star trek canon and blew up Vulcan in a lazy hackneyed way so he could create his own 'canon'.

The changes here are relatively minor, in my view. Lots more thought went into these AUJ interactions that I think is being credited. In the end, it's their product. We can only look forward to it all being better explained in the follow up movies.


(This post was edited by Rostron2 on Feb 7 2013, 10:02pm)


IdrilofGondolin
Rohan

Feb 8 2013, 1:43am

Post #45 of 56 (183 views)
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Galadriel is walking [In reply to] Can't Post

about because she is wearing that amazing dress. Also because the scene would be too static is everyone was seated. I do not think it is anymore complicated than that.

As everyone recalls people were concerned that the trailer depicted a Galadriel and Gandalf romance. Silly people. It is clear that Galadriel was not Gandlaf's superior. What is also clear is that Gandalf considered Saruman his superior and that is what Elrond probably meant by his remark.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 8 2013, 2:09am

Post #46 of 56 (170 views)
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I was actually suggesting that the seating denoted an honouring of the Istari, not the Elves. [In reply to] Can't Post

Anyway. . .

It is obvious to YOU. And to those of us who know better. But , are we at peace??! . . . Excuse me, I mean, do other people know better? Does the lay person? The commentaries from at least several critics for major publications and outlets suggest that many of them certainly do not know. Drop your backnowledge for a moment. Forget all that you know of Ainur, and of The Maia, of their Angelic nature and their part in the shaping of the world, of Eru and of Valar and their emmissaries, of Calaquendi and of Noldor, and just think about the scene. Void of all your knowledge of the legendarium and cosmology, can you still say that it is clear that she is not his superiour? Because for many of the people who don't already know better, it was not so clear at all.

In Reply To
about because she is wearing that amazing dress. Also because the scene would be too static is everyone was seated. I do not think it is anymore complicated than that.

As everyone recalls people were concerned that the trailer depicted a Galadriel and Gandalf romance. Silly people. It is clear that Galadriel was not Gandlaf's superior. What is also clear is that Gandalf considered Saruman his superior and that is what Elrond probably meant by his remark.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Súlimë
Rivendell


Feb 8 2013, 3:29am

Post #47 of 56 (156 views)
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I like your suggestion about the seating [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree. With prior knowledge, I managed to convince myself that the dynamic between Galdalf and Galadriel was that of equals, and not her being superior.

Still, I have another weird theory...

I've always been slightly bothered by how 'human' the Elves are in the LotR movies. When I read the books, I felt that there was a different air to the Elves -- something very old and poetically sad. I know it is difficult to convey on film.

So perhaps Galadriel, and Elf born in the First Age in Valinor, is meant to be different from other Elves, and maybe her aloofness does not convey superiority, but just a strange other-worldliness feel.

Also, I've always felt that the Istari in a way became 'human' when they were sent to Middle-Earth. When I read the books, I always had this impression that Gandalf's memory of Valinor was quite vague, and his purpose and mission were almost like a religious calling -- there but intangible, buried deep in his soul, while his 'human experience' is quite real and alive. I also use this to understand the corruption of Saruman. After seeing what happened to Melkor/Sauron -- I doubt any Maia would be stupid enough to 'seek power' the way Saruman did. Being limited to human form and therefore human failings, however, made it possible that Saruman got 'lost' along the way and got tempted by greed for power. (I don't think he is evil by nature; otherwise the Valar would not have chosen him. I think Saruman was just weak, and he failed the test)

So I think maybe that is what we are seeing. Galadriel experiences the world in a very different way. Middle-Earth is not her entire world. She remembers what exists in the West. For Gandalf, things are less clear. Deep down he knows, but being clad by human form and human emotions, he has doubts.

In short, Galadriel is just aloof. In the movie she also had a very strange and aloof way of welcoming the Fellowship, so it's just her style of communication. :P


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 8 2013, 7:13am

Post #48 of 56 (154 views)
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I get what you are saying, and there is some truth in what you are saying, however her [In reply to] Can't Post

being aloof was not my problem. Indeed, I very much liked some of the intimacy of friendship that she shared with Gandalf in the film. My problem was that, outside of those affectionate moments, she seemed, not so aloof as dominant. Thranduil, a being of FAR lesser power and wisdom than the truly great Galadriel, seemed more aloof and alien in his way. In Fellowship she seemed perfect to me (and in the other Rings movies), a near sacred being in the eyes of hobbits, less potent Elves, dwarves and Men. But here she is in the company of The Istari, of Angels temporarily bound in flesh, and while they are not manifested in the fullness of their power and wisdom, they are still sacred in their own fashion, and ancient, and sent by supremely Divine authority. . . who would not have sent them to the aid of Elves, Men and all other free folk if the High Elves were deemed sufficient enough.

As to his memory of Valinor. . . distant but poingnant, is how it is described, a vision for which The Wizards yearned so long as they remained true to their purpose. As to Saruman. . . he was good and Great, and a mighty Spirit. Mighty among the kindred of Aule. Not unlike Sauron. Indeed, too like Sauron. Where Olorin was wary of the guile, malice, cunning and power of Sauron, Curumo thought himself more than sufficient to the task, and perhaps did not even properly contemplate the limitations flesh would place upon him. And Sauron understood Saruman exceedingly well. So well, Tolkien said, that even without the Palantir he was largely able to predict how Saruman would behave, for it was how he himself would behave in similar circumstance. They both desired knowledge, rule and order, after a fashion, and neither began with truly evil intent, beyond a growing desire to dominate. It is said that it was the ability of Melkor to effictively impose his will (not his wanton destructiveness and wreckless wrath) which first attracted Sauron to him.

I don't have a problem with her being too aloof in this film, but I would like to see her interaction with Gandalf be more akin to the way she addressed Elrond, i.e. on more equal terms, and with entreating questions alongside her advice. . . it should be more apparent that she is open to his advise and deeply respectful of his wisdom as well. There were simply moments when she seemed too much like his director, and she should not come across as either his supervisor nor as HIS guardian angel. She can be mighty and wise in her own right, as she undeniably is, without sublimating the wisdom and power of the Wizards.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Feb 8 2013, 7:14am)


Súlimë
Rivendell


Feb 8 2013, 8:15am

Post #49 of 56 (138 views)
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The White Council scene [In reply to] Can't Post

After watching it again I've come to the conclusion that Galadriel treats everyone the same way -- even Saruman who, according to the movie, has 'sent for' her.

Gandalf seems to show reverence to everyone -- even Elrond. It just seems that Elrond simply chooses to be 'friendly' and Galadriel chooses to be 'aloof'?

To be honest, I have never really liked how the Elves are portrayed in all the movies -- so maybe that's why at this point the scene doesn't bother me as much as it should :P


Mahtion
Rivendell

Feb 8 2013, 2:24pm

Post #50 of 56 (130 views)
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Elf Portrayal and Gandalf Personality [In reply to] Can't Post

Good point Sulime, the elves act completely different to their book counterparts. Yes they are grim and full of melancholy but they are almost equally full of mirth and childlike wonder. This dualism contributes to their non human and seemingly alien demeanor. They are like humans in some regard but mostly strange and react in extremes.

As for Gandalf, I believe part of his personality comes into play with his interactions. Being a humble spirit taking the guise of a wizened elderly fellow he embodies restrained wisdom and selfless pride. It is not in Gandalf's nature to dominate others or demand respect. However Galadriel is full of pride and as one of the Noldor more aligned with the personality and character as one of Aule in the vein of Sauron and Saruman.

Of course Gandalf is an "angelic" being but his true self is concealed for a specific purpose and intent. Do any angels or servants of higher beings demand reverence or adulation? Therefore Gandalf naturally assumes a position of subservience because he is in fact on a mission to assist the peoples of Middle Earth. In fact I would personally find fault in a reversed situation, I just could not imagine Gandalf commanding Galadriel or demonstrating an air of superiority, he is simply far too humble and meek an individual.

I know personally Olroin, you took serious offense with the way Gandalf was portrayed in the White Council scene but you shouldn't concern yourself with the interpretations of the common audience. The average moviegoer has little understanding of Tolkien mythos and there are many embellished scenes even in LOTR which fail to convey the depth or complexity of the story. The average person would see Arwen as possessing elemental power over water which we know is not the case. The average person would see Elrond as detached and jaded by suffering and loss to the point of angry possessiveness of his daughter which is so unlike his book counterpart. Most infuriatingly the average person thinks Sauron was invincible and was by freakish coincidence slain by a lucky Isildur but we know that it was Elendil and Gil-galad who was responsible. These changes exist and alter dynamics and nuances but can be reconciled with the lore. More importantly it is irrelevant what the general masses think of LOTR.

Obviously AinurOlorin you have a great deal of interest and intrigue for Gandalf, but you shouldn't let sentimental notions blind you to the greater picture of the White Council. If a hobbit can give a spiritual entity courage why can't one of the firstborn which has endured much more than a sheltered servant of a god give advise and counsel? Many times even the Valar have shown surprise and wonder at the firstborn's ability and capacity. It is not outside of reason to suggest that Galadriel and the Noldor know more of the enemy and the effects of its evil than the Maiar who have not been as personally affected. In terms of experience and knowledge on the subject it is possible Elrond and Galadriel are better positioned to assist the Istari in their chief objective, to help the free peoples deny and unturn Sauron.

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