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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
A continuing vexation over the seeming lack of reverance shown by Galadriel to Gandalf, despite her knowledge of what he is and her high esteem of him. I hope they will rectify this in the coming films.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 6 2013, 10:23pm

Post #1 of 56 (1281 views)
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A continuing vexation over the seeming lack of reverance shown by Galadriel to Gandalf, despite her knowledge of what he is and her high esteem of him. I hope they will rectify this in the coming films. Can't Post

I don't mean to gripe. I really enjoyed, even loved, some parts of the interaction between the two. Their obvious camraderie, and Galadriel's affectionate concern for the Wizard were especially pleasing to me. Yet, through it all she was portrayed too much as somehow superior to him, which was deeply problematic. She seemed at all points the director and advisor, but never the advised. The dynamic hearkened too much to her interactions with Frodo and Aragorn. . . that dynamic was pitch perfect in relation to both of them, but completely wrong in interaction with one of The Ainur, The Holy Spirits who formed the world, even an Ainur in a limited incarnation. We know that Galadriel greatly valued and trusted in the wisdom of Gandalf, and we know that she had desired his leadership for THe Council. We also know that she knew what he truly was. There is, unfortunately and dissapointingly, no evidence of that in this film. Another poster noted that her husband was not sure whether or not Galadriel was one of the Wizards! And I can understand how he came to such a conclusion. If not for the fact that it is earlier mentioned that there are only Five Wizards, including Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast, with the two Blue Wizards off stage, I think any layperson might easily draw that same notion. She is portrayed almost as being the co-leader of The Council alongside Saruman.

I love Galadriel, and she was both wise and mighty, even among The Noldor, and I am glad to see her portrayed thus. But she was not without flaws of pride and early folly. And she had been a student of the Maiar Ainur, but she was NOT their tutor, neither Melian's nor Olorin's. The Istari were not even answerable to each other (aside from that being specifically stated, one recalls a certain Wizard sitting aside and blowing smokerings whilst Saruman spoke. . . then issuing a very precise number of rings, and holding up his hand to make them vanish before the other Wizard's eyes), certainly they were not answerable to any of The Eldar. The Valar and Eru were their directors and sole superiors, not Galadriel of Valinor, Doriath and Lothlorien. I am HAPPY to see Galadriel portayed as a mighty and great Power in Middle-Earth. But it is wrong for them to diminsih or make servile Gandalf in the process. The Wizards were sent to give counsel, advice, motivation and aid to ALL the people's of Middle-Earth, including the High Elves who remained, from the greatest to the least. All people, from the remaining Noldor to the Hobbits of The Shire, were Gandalf's concern, who had thought and pity even for the slaves of Sauron.

My hope is, in the following films, he will give as much counsel to The Lady of Lorien as he receives, recalling to mind the scene in Unfinished tales whereupon he tells her that, contrary to her fears, The Valar have not put Middle-Earth and those who dwell thereupon out of their thought. And hopefully she will be seen to show him more reverance as well, even if it is merely the same tilt of the head that he gives to her.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Ardamírë
Valinor


Feb 6 2013, 11:14pm

Post #2 of 56 (675 views)
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They've gone to too much trouble... [In reply to] Can't Post

to build her up as the "Elf-witch of terrible power" that Gimli describes in FOTR. They're not going to strip that all away now so that Gandalf can be her equal when that's clearly not what they want to show, as unfortunate as it may be (and I do think it's unfortunate).

There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 6 2013, 11:30pm

Post #3 of 56 (624 views)
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It is shameful. Him being a Great Wizard (and a Holy Spirit veiled in flesh) does not [In reply to] Can't Post

detract in anyway from her being "an Elf-Witch of terrible power," which she would remain, and certainly by the reckoning of Men, Dwarves and Hobbits. But she should not be so awe inspiring to a Holy Wizard as she should to a Man or a Dwarf. Some perspective should be kept. She is a powerful Elf-Enchantress. . . she is not a Goddess. She is not Varda, nor Nienna nor Yvanna, nor Este, nor any of The Queens. She is not Uinen or Melain, who are of Gandalf's original kind. They don't have to show her as subserviant, but it is completely wrong to show are almost as the director of The Istari.

In Reply To
to build her up as the "Elf-witch of terrible power" that Gimli describes in FOTR. They're not going to strip that all away now so that Gandalf can be her equal when that's clearly not what they want to show, as unfortunate as it may be (and I do think it's unfortunate).


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 6 2013, 11:39pm

Post #4 of 56 (613 views)
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Galadriel and gandalf [In reply to] Can't Post

This post really has me thinking.

You are completely correct in the interpretation textually of their respective places in ME. While Galadriel is certainly wise, she remains close to if not directly stained by the Kinslaying.

I think their dynamic was demonstrated as one of mutual affection with Gandalf's head tilt being more a part of male to female chivalry versus reverence. Elrond's small, warm smile over Gandalf's shoulder as Gandalf greets her gives me this feel too. (Evidence by the Oh S%$@! sort of look Elrond has towards Gandalf when Gandalf hears Saruman speak.) In support of Gandalf, Galadriel does defend him against Saruman's interruption. Of course, does this imply to viewers that she is superior in the Council to Saruman or is Saruman yielding to suggestion the same gender dynamic as above? I saw it more gender related...but as the non-fan poster described perhaps it comes across as either superior or wizard-level-equal.

She does show some respect for Gandalf. She accepts all the information and statements that he makes without dissent. And she is the only one present who does not begrudge Gandalf the decision to help the Company, Saruman being firmly against and refuting Gandalf out of hand, Elrond being perhaps neutral or inclined perhaps to disagree.

Does her statement "You are right to help Thorin Oakenshield..." imply superiority by simply making the statement? Or is that more of a respectful acknowledgement of Gandalf's judgement? I think its a point that leaves itself open to interpretation. I felt more of the respect perhaps. And her question of "Why the Halfling?" is perhaps the same issue. My own sense is that Galadriel cannot see the rationale, but does not quibble with the wisdom, and therefore needs that rationale to be supplied by Gandalf. Tacit revererence perhaps.

So I think I feel like its a relationship of strong affection, which perhaps obscures the respect of Galadriel for Gandalf but not the other way around, possibly due to the onscreen gender dynamic.

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.

(This post was edited by Brethil on Feb 6 2013, 11:40pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 6 2013, 11:56pm

Post #5 of 56 (604 views)
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Only the "Why the Halfling" line. [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that she is truly curious about this hugely important decision. . . the one decision to which his waking thought has little answer. Though I would have liked (and it may yet happen) his commentary on it feeling right. . . on feeling in his heart that Bilbo should be a part of this quest. . . that his involvement is somehow very important.

As to the other things. . . I think the problem is it is TOO easily interpreted as her sanctioning what Gandalf is doing, rather than deferring to any wisdom of his.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 6 2013, 11:59pm

Post #6 of 56 (544 views)
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yes, true [In reply to] Can't Post

from the Istari from whom comes "do not be eager to deal out death in judgement..." it leaves one wanting a bit more.

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 7 2013, 12:15am

Post #7 of 56 (553 views)
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Dol Goldur [In reply to] Can't Post

So the offer of help...respect and love or assumption of equality?
How do you see this playing out in Dol Goldur, where that offer of help will surely come to fruition?

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 7 2013, 12:17am

Post #8 of 56 (556 views)
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Well . . . I don't want to get into what it means for him to carry him from [In reply to] Can't Post

the aftermath of the battle. Unsure Could go eitherway, but I fear where Boyens is taking things in this matter, and Jackson as well.

In Reply To
So the offer of help...respect and love or assumption of equality?
How do you see this playing out in Dol Goldur, where that offer of help will surely come to fruition?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 7 2013, 12:43am

Post #9 of 56 (543 views)
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Like echoing the staff breaking in Minias Tirith [In reply to] Can't Post

and a too-weak Gandalf. With the need to attempt onscreen to portray a Gandalf who cannot vanquish evil entirely alone.
Hmmm. I feel very dense about making this whole issue work onscreen. Having faith it will all fly, timeline and tone-wise given the space of two more films.

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.

(This post was edited by Brethil on Feb 7 2013, 12:51am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 7 2013, 1:08am

Post #10 of 56 (515 views)
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Ach! God. I blot it from my mind. Thank God it was only in EE, NOT the theatrical. [In reply to] Can't Post

I am hopeful, but not very hopeful. I have concerns that this is a set of errors they don't want to right. Elves aren't Angels/Ainur, incarate or otherwise. . . but Phillipa perhaps wishes otherwise.

In Reply To
and a too-weak Gandalf. With the need to attempt onscreen to portray a Gandalf who cannot vanquish evil entirely alone.
Hmmm. I feel very dense about making this whole issue work onscreen. Having faith it will all fly, timeline and tone-wise given the space of two more films.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 7 2013, 1:38am

Post #11 of 56 (505 views)
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too far in (?) [In reply to] Can't Post

I tend to think that die has been cast.
Having not been able to bring any creation lore into LOTR now we are at a junction where the Firstborn rather equal this universe's gods, and thus no clarity could subsequently be offered for the origins of the Istari. Unless we see it somewhere in this trilogy. Am hoping for some of this sourcing since the split to three films was announced. But it could be a done deal from a scriptwriting perspective.
Thus Gandalf and Galadriel may stay mutually affectionate equals.

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


Elessar
Valinor


Feb 7 2013, 2:31am

Post #12 of 56 (471 views)
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Interpretation [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought he did say that without saying exactly like that. Saying its basically the little things and everyday people that to me is why he feels Bilbo is very important. Obviously it's very much how open to interpretation I think.

Again, I can see how some one could take it that way I took it as she respected Gandald so much that she knew he made calculated good decisions.



AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 7 2013, 4:02am

Post #13 of 56 (444 views)
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If only it were clearly even equal! [In reply to] Can't Post

Unsure Wink Crazy.

The portrayl seems more subordinating of him. And I hope more lore or at least adherence to lore is brought in. They might not be able to use Silmarillion and Unfinished tales, but there is enough in Rings, appendices et. To go on. That there are Valar, that there are Spirits akin to them, like Melian, that the Istari are such having been sent by them etc. etc. That Sauron and The Balrog were the servants of Morgoth. If they can work in the hue of the other two Wizards, as well as some of the other edge skating they manage, they can manage the relationship between Istari and Eldar a little more carefully. Unsure

In Reply To
I tend to think that die has been cast.
Having not been able to bring any creation lore into LOTR now we are at a junction where the Firstborn rather equal this universe's gods, and thus no clarity could subsequently be offered for the origins of the Istari. Unless we see it somewhere in this trilogy. Am hoping for some of this sourcing since the split to three films was announced. But it could be a done deal from a scriptwriting perspective.
Thus Gandalf and Galadriel may stay mutually affectionate equals.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Feb 7 2013, 9:29am

Post #14 of 56 (396 views)
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In the high fells [In reply to] Can't Post

Dol Guldur or wherever it pleases the writers, Gandalf could be confronting the wraiths and make a comment like "I who existed before the waking of the elves will not fear the wraith of a man" although this will conflict with his ROTK doubts when talking to Pip about the WKing.


Fredeghar Wayfarer
Lorien


Feb 7 2013, 10:20am

Post #15 of 56 (391 views)
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Legal issues [In reply to] Can't Post

The filmmakers can't go into the origins of the Istari or even hint at it, most likely. We Tolkienites know that the wizards are Maiar spirits sent from the Uttermost West. We know that Galadriel deduced their true nature. But this is information from Unfinished Tales, a text that Jackson and his team don't have the rights to. They're not going to show Galadriel honoring Gandalf as a holy messenger.

And what's more, I don't think they would want to. The intended effect of that scene was to show the two of them as (very) old friends. They show compassion for each other, the mutual respect of equals, and even a sly secret joke via telepathy. I never got the sense that Galadriel was disrespecting Gandalf or that he was showing servitude to her. The White Council were played as peers, with Saruman as de facto leader due to being head of the wizard order.

I don't think there's anything wrong with this interpretation. Even ignoring the legal issues, Galadriel has lived alongside Maiar in the West, studied with Melian, and has served on a council with the Istari for hundreds of years. After a while, I imagine the awe and reverence wears off and one comes to think of them as simply friends.


(This post was edited by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Feb 7 2013, 10:22am)


Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


Feb 7 2013, 12:53pm

Post #16 of 56 (360 views)
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Being mad on Istari-justice, I agree with you, though I think it depends on interpretation [In reply to] Can't Post

Take Elrond's line: "It is not me you must answer to". I don't see this as him saying "You must answer to your superior, Galadriel", rather I see it as him saying "I am not the only one among the Wise who does not understand your reasoning". I know that PJ was almost definitely trying to imply Gandalf's "inferiority" but those who think differently can ignore that connotation it as it's not explicitly stated.

I think that Gandalf's burst of magic in G-T was a direct response from PJ & Co. concerning the lack of powerful magic employed by Gandalf in LOTR, and to give those people who keep arguing about whether Dumbledore or Gandalf is the better wizard something to think about (of course we all know the answer to that one here). Indeed it will be hard for Galadriel to top that power display, I think, unless she destroys Dol Guldur in the films as many believe she may. I've no idea how much power she has compared to Saruman in PJ's world, though she's undoubtedly more powerful than Elrond or Radagast in the film adaptation.

Either way, even if Galadriel is more powerful in the Jackson universe, Gandalf has by far the greater wisdom, and is probably equal to Galadriel (if not slightly more powerful) in his guise as Gandalf the White.

Despite all of this, one thing has to be remembered: this is not like some sort of card game where power is defined explicitly: as a Maia Gandalf is more powerful but maybe PJ is trying to emphasize that his power is limited in M-E, and that his role is to guide rather than to use force. In fact, I think that many of these discussions about "who is more powerful" would have annoyed Tolkien somewhat because of the reasoning I've given at the beginning of this paragraph.

"These are Gundabad Wargs! They will outrun you!"

"THESE are Rhosgobel Rabbits! I'd like to see them try...."



(This post was edited by Radagast-Aiwendil on Feb 7 2013, 12:55pm)


MorgolKing
Rivendell

Feb 7 2013, 1:40pm

Post #17 of 56 (344 views)
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Yup [In reply to] Can't Post

It's gone too far. This is why I want to edit the Hobbit. If you watch the White Council scene, if you cut to the Company right after Gandalf says "perhaps it's because he gives me courage" it's a very natural transition and cuts a lot of the bull.

Although I admit it doesn't completely remedy all of the problems. Boyens really went through a lot of trouble to show Galadriel as "the most powerful being on ME"

Ridiculous.


stoutfiles
Rohan


Feb 7 2013, 2:44pm

Post #18 of 56 (337 views)
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Then you'll love the Dol Guldur scenes [In reply to] Can't Post

In which Galadriel is supposedly carrying Gandalf because she is so mighty and he is so helpless.


Mahtion
Rivendell

Feb 7 2013, 3:40pm

Post #19 of 56 (324 views)
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Gandalf became mightier later on [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't forget that Tolkien didn't characterize Gandalf's power or origins when he wrote the Hobbit. For all intents and purposes Gandalf was a human wizard and not yet one of the Ainur or holy ones. Therefore many purists should be happy with this decision by PJ because it follows more accurately to the Hobbit Gandalf who being only a human wizard would be beneath the Calaquendi who saw the light of Aman before the sun and moon.

It is possible that the movie canon hasn't acknowledged the true divine nature of the Istari. A compromise between both Hobbit and LOTR Gandalf may have been decided in order to create a more flawed and relatable character. For the record as powerful as Olorin may be Dumbledore is actually a greater wizard. It seems unfair to compare a remarkable human and a divine demi-god of sorts. Gandalf's power is innate and immeasurable derived from spiritual power while Dumbledore has trained and taught himself in the ways of magic through discipline, struggle, and loss. There is no question who is better characterized and has more depth. It's like comparing Gabriel and David in Judeo Christian mythology, one is more of an essence and abstract and the other is a true multifaceted character with nuanced personality experiencing change and growth. Becoming Gandalf the White changed his character yes but removed him of most of his personality and character enrichments. Even Ian decried as much attesting to the boring nature of Gandalf the White. Despite my comparisons and defense of Dumbledore I prefer LOTR setting to Harry Potter despite the obvious differences and qualities of each.


(This post was edited by Mahtion on Feb 7 2013, 3:43pm)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Feb 7 2013, 3:53pm

Post #20 of 56 (339 views)
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I don't think that Galadriel's depiction is that far off... [In reply to] Can't Post

Keep in mind that Lady Galadriel did chair the previous Councils of the Wise before the arrival of the Istari. It was at her specific behest that the Wizards were invited into the Council in the first place. Also, the Istari were meant to act as advisors, not leaders, despite their great power.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Kassandros
Rohan


Feb 7 2013, 4:05pm

Post #21 of 56 (317 views)
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Quite shameful indeed! [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope that Jackson, Walsh, and Boyens are very ashamed of themselves. I wonder what we can do to help shame them some more? Should we make "tsk tsk" sounds at appropriate points when we watch the movie in public? Or declare, out loud, "Shame on you Peter Jackson!" at the debut of DoS if a similar dynamic is present?

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 7 2013, 4:10pm

Post #22 of 56 (302 views)
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The Appendices already say that they are sent from The Lords of The West. [In reply to] Can't Post

Who in other places in the appendices are mentioned as the Valar. Melian, mother of Luthien, is also once mentioned therein as being "of the divine race of the Valar." It also clearly stated that they were sent to contest Sauron, and to unite all people and creatures of goodwill, but were forbidden to match his power with their power, or to dominate Elves or men by force or by fear etc. All of this is IN the appendices of Lord of The Rings, to which they have access. It is worth noting, however, that all of the Lord of The Rings movie Tie In books (Visual companions, official guides etc.) all speak extensively of the Wizards as Maiar.

As to what they want to do. . . that may be the problem. Phillipa Boyens seems to want to portray Galadriel as the hands down most powerful being in Middle-Earth, with no need for tests to prove the claim and no thought for Istari, Bombadil or a Balrog, and seemingly not for The Necromancer. Saruman also is head of The Council because Gandalf refused the position, being unwilling to be answerable to any save those who sent him, and because Saruman had the most Ring lore. The lay person watching, however, will almost inevitably see Galadriel as being superior. That is they way it is played. Not disrespectful but dominant, in a way not appropraite for that particular relationship.

When I say reverent, I don't expect her to be in any way in awe of Gandalf. He would not desire such a thing, and she would be less likely than most to exhibit it. But reverent respect, at least as deep as that which he seemed to show for her in these films.

In Reply To
The filmmakers can't go into the origins of the Istari or even hint at it, most likely. We Tolkienites know that the wizards are Maiar spirits sent from the Uttermost West. We know that Galadriel deduced their true nature. But this is information from Unfinished Tales, a text that Jackson and his team don't have the rights to. They're not going to show Galadriel honoring Gandalf as a holy messenger.

And what's more, I don't think they would want to. The intended effect of that scene was to show the two of them as (very) old friends. They show compassion for each other, the mutual respect of equals, and even a sly secret joke via telepathy. I never got the sense that Galadriel was disrespecting Gandalf or that he was showing servitude to her. The White Council were played as peers, with Saruman as de facto leader due to being head of the wizard order.

I don't think there's anything wrong with this interpretation. Even ignoring the legal issues, Galadriel has lived alongside Maiar in the West, studied with Melian, and has served on a council with the Istari for hundreds of years. After a while, I imagine the awe and reverence wears off and one comes to think of them as simply friends.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 7 2013, 4:19pm

Post #23 of 56 (292 views)
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Whaaaaaa? [In reply to] Can't Post

I know what you mean, but you are talking rough drafts. Cannon is the authors finished intent, or that which is closest to it and in published form when he or she stops writing. In all finished versions of everything, Gandalf is Olorin the Maia, underneath that beard and that aged costume. This is the larger world of LOTR, not just The Hobbit. In The Hobbit there is no one named Galadriel, nor any Ringwraiths, and only one magic Ring. . . which isn't at all powerful beyond its useful ability to make a fellow dissapear.

Also, movie Cannon has acknoledged it. Nobody else comes back from death in the movies. Certainly they do not return with holy light streaming from them, causing even Legolas, a Sindar Elf prince, to bow to his knees. He also says, in TTT, "for 300 lives of men I have walked this Earth." That cancels actual human status right there. Demi-god isn't the right term though. Avatar of a lesser god or Angel is more accurate. Demi-gods are part god and part man. As to the Dumbledore stuff. . . I am content to see Gandalf's powers portrayed as the book describes them, explosions, thunder voice et al. If the Warg scene from the Fellowship novel had been in the movies, or if his battle with The Nine makes it in with a form resembling what is described in the books, he will match up just fine with the Harry Potter magicians in the mind of the average movie goer.

In Reply To
Don't forget that Tolkien didn't characterize Gandalf's power or origins when he wrote the Hobbit. For all intents and purposes Gandalf was a human wizard and not yet one of the Ainur or holy ones. Therefore many purists should be happy with this decision by PJ because it follows more accurately to the Hobbit Gandalf who being only a human wizard would be beneath the Calaquendi who saw the light of Aman before the sun and moon.

It is possible that the movie canon hasn't acknowledged the true divine nature of the Istari. A compromise between both Hobbit and LOTR Gandalf may have been decided in order to create a more flawed and relatable character. For the record as powerful as Olorin may be Dumbledore is actually a greater wizard. It seems unfair to compare a remarkable human and a divine demi-god of sorts. Gandalf's power is innate and immeasurable derived from spiritual power while Dumbledore has trained and taught himself in the ways of magic through discipline, struggle, and loss. There is no question who is better characterized and has more depth. It's like comparing Gabriel and David in Judeo Christian mythology, one is more of an essence and abstract and the other is a true multifaceted character with nuanced personality experiencing change and growth. Becoming Gandalf the White changed his character yes but removed him of most of his personality and character enrichments. Even Ian decried as much attesting to the boring nature of Gandalf the White. Despite my comparisons and defense of Dumbledore I prefer LOTR setting to Harry Potter despite the obvious differences and qualities of each.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Feb 7 2013, 4:20pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 7 2013, 4:23pm

Post #24 of 56 (281 views)
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She invited them, and asked that Gandalf be the leader of The Council entire. [In reply to] Can't Post

She did not seek to claim that position, nor did she suggest that she would be somehow over the council. She would be a member, and she was content, and indeed sought, to have him lead it, trusting in his wisdom. He declined, in part for the reasons you say, while Saruman, whose pride and desire for mastery had grown great, accepted and begrudged that the position had even been offered to another.

In Reply To
Keep in mind that Lady Galadriel did chair the previous Councils of the Wise before the arrival of the Istari. It was at her specific behest that the Wizards were invited into the Council in the first place. Also, the Istari were meant to act as advisors, not leaders, despite their great power.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Feb 7 2013, 4:24pm

Post #25 of 56 (285 views)
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We should take both of those options under advisement, and [In reply to] Can't Post

into deep consideration. Tongue

In Reply To
I hope that Jackson, Walsh, and Boyens are very ashamed of themselves. I wonder what we can do to help shame them some more? Should we make "tsk tsk" sounds at appropriate points when we watch the movie in public? Or declare, out loud, "Shame on you Peter Jackson!" at the debut of DoS if a similar dynamic is present?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

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