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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Thorin's initial reaction to Orcrist

Súlimë
Rivendell


Feb 5 2013, 4:35am

Post #1 of 25 (1309 views)
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Thorin's initial reaction to Orcrist Can't Post

Sorry if this is something that is very obvious to everyone. But I've been wondering about it for a while now and it was only during my 3rd viewing that I noticed this:

In the trolls' cave, once Gandalf said the swords were made by Elves, a very brief look of annoyance crossed Thorin's face and he was about to put it down, but Gandalf said they were very fine blades and Thorin changed his mind.

Can someone please confirm this? I don't know why I didn't notice it before -- maybe because in my mind it should be common knowledge that Elven blades are the greatest blades ever made and everyone should be squealing with joy when they get their hands on them :P

When I finally noticed it, the scene with Elrond in Rivendell makes more sense when Thorin finally 'officially' accepts Orcrist.


GloryBox
Bree


Feb 5 2013, 5:47am

Post #2 of 25 (732 views)
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You're quite right. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thorin did look as if he was about to put Orcrist back in the troll horde. Gandalf made him reconsider when he said "You could not ask for a finer blade!" After Elrond recounts a bit of Orcrist's orc-slaying history and says "May it serve you well", Thorin looks quite content with it.

...one morning long ago in the quiet of the world, when there was less noise and more green... The Hobbit


Elizabeth
Valinor


Feb 5 2013, 7:46am

Post #3 of 25 (703 views)
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They're trying to emphasize the Dwarf vs. Elf friction. [In reply to] Can't Post

For movie-Thorin to show delight in an Elven sword would have weakened the point they're trying to make.








florian
The Shire

Feb 5 2013, 2:49pm

Post #4 of 25 (622 views)
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He does not like the elves (MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS IF HAVEN"T READ BOOK) [In reply to] Can't Post

When Erebor was taken and the Dwarves tried to retake Moiria(?) they recieved no help from anyone. Thranduil (in the movie) was right there on the ridge overlooking Erebor and turned away, leaving the dwarves to fend for themselves. So Thorin hates everything about them. By his taking Orcrist afterall, I think it showed he IS able to put his hard feelings aside in some instances and can be reasonable. Perhaps PJ did this as a sublte way to show viewers that even tho Thorin goes a bit whacky at the end with his gold-lust, there is still hope for him yet.

Speaking of the gold-lust, does anyone feel it will be a lust for the gold that affects him or just for the Arkenstone itself, which represents Erebor and the throne--over which he is most obsessive? I think it is being able to reclaim Erebor and the throne that really drives him more at this point, albeit, that may well change in the next installments.


Súlimë
Rivendell


Feb 5 2013, 3:20pm

Post #5 of 25 (586 views)
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It was a nice little moment [In reply to] Can't Post

I know about Thorin's hatred of Elves (and I've read the book) -- but that little look of disgust when he first heard "made by the Elves" was something I didn't notice in the first two viewings.

I thought it was a nice touch -- the way they showed how it was almost instinctive how Thorin reacted to the word 'Elves'. It was quite subtly done too. They could have made him say "I would not have anything to do with Elves!" a few times more (like when he knew Gandalf was leading them to Rivendell), but I loved how they chose to convey it through these brief expressions :)


Angharad73
Rohan

Feb 5 2013, 3:35pm

Post #6 of 25 (566 views)
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It is a nice touch [In reply to] Can't Post

And I also like the look Thorin has when Elrond tells him about Orcrist - like he shows sudden interest in the sword, not because it is made by elves, but because of it's name and by implication what it has already done. And he accepts it graciously when Elrond gives it to him, perhaps in part because he acknowledges that Orcrist is Elrond's to give, as it was forged by his kin. I wonder what Thorin would have done, had the roles been reversed. Would he have give a famous, Dwarven sword to an elf?


florian
The Shire

Feb 5 2013, 3:35pm

Post #7 of 25 (560 views)
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agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

Having seen what happened in his youth the viewer can sympathize with him. I am not liking Thranduil at all at the moment, tho I am sure he felt justified in his actions. It just seemed like a sorry thing to do to people who had probably come to his aid on more than one ocassion without hesitation.


julia0925
The Shire


Feb 5 2013, 3:45pm

Post #8 of 25 (556 views)
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I liked that bit too [In reply to] Can't Post

How he's like, "I'm not going to have anything to do with elves" but then Gandalf tells him he couldn't find a finer blade, and Thorin actually pulls the blade out a bit to look at it before he really accepts it. It was a nice moment.

I also am not a Thauranduil fan at the moment--they could have at least helped the dwarves that were running out of Erebor, they didn't have to turn away. And the way he tilts his head first, it's almost like he's an Observer from the Fringe universe (sorry if I'm crossing universes here). I do look forward to seeing more of him, if only to see if he remains a jerk. I actually am quite fond of Lee Pace.

The scene with Elrond, I thought was very gracious of Elrond to not only tell him of Orcrist and it's name (the Goblin Cleaver) but to return it to him, as though Elrond recognized the whole finder's-keepers thing. I was actually quite impressed with Elrond in this movie. He even smiles a few times. Much more likeable than in LOTR when he's all grim and "You can't have my daughter".

-----
Lotr: You know it's been a bad day when even the elf is smudged.
TH: when the going gets tough, the tough call the eagles.


Old Toby
Gondor


Feb 5 2013, 4:02pm

Post #9 of 25 (583 views)
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And he never forgave. And he never forgot. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think those lines spoken by Bilbo at the beginning of the story could have referred to both Smaug and the elves. Certainly he thought that their 'abandonment' by the elves in their time of dire need hastened their downfall at Erebor and at Moria.

So, yeah, no love for the elves there. I noted also his look of disgust when he pulled the arrow out of the orc's neck after they had escaped down the slide into the cave. Looking at the arrowhead, he spat, "Elves".

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


Súlimë
Rivendell


Feb 5 2013, 4:33pm

Post #10 of 25 (546 views)
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Very good point! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And he accepts it graciously when Elrond gives it to him, perhaps in part because he acknowledges that Orcrist is Elrond's to give, as it was forged by his kin. I wonder what Thorin would have done, had the roles been reversed. Would he have give a famous, Dwarven sword to an elf?


You might be right in that Thorin might have felt better about using it once it was rightfully given to him by an Elf lord.

Now if anyone remembers when exactly he started using Orcrist? If it's only after Rivendell that would be interesting :)


TwirlingThorin
Bree

Feb 5 2013, 5:10pm

Post #11 of 25 (535 views)
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Elves ...... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
So, yeah, no love for the elves there. I noted also his look of disgust when he pulled the arrow out of the orc's neck after they had escaped down the slide into the cave. Looking at the arrowhead, he spat, "Elves".



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAy6fPL9rq8


Rostron2
Gondor


Feb 5 2013, 6:11pm

Post #12 of 25 (500 views)
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I think it was appropriate [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not described that way in the book, but movies need to reinforce certain feelings that can't be described. The dwarves are obviously proud of their weapon-making, so it makes sense, and gives you some insight into Thorin and elves.


arithmancer
Grey Havens

Feb 5 2013, 6:22pm

Post #13 of 25 (487 views)
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No [In reply to] Can't Post

He started to use Orcrist almost immediately after he found it - they were attacked by the Warg scouts shortly after they left the Troll Cave, and he used it in that scene.


huzzlewhat
The Shire

Feb 5 2013, 6:30pm

Post #14 of 25 (490 views)
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Nice echo... [In reply to] Can't Post

 I noted also his look of disgust when he pulled the arrow out of the orc's neck after they had escaped down the slide into the cave. Looking at the arrowhead, he spat, "Elves".

This was a lovely echo of the moment in FOTR when Legolas looks at the arrowhead in Moria, and spits, "Goblins!" Same beats, same inflections — and I daresay that at that point, Thorin feels about elves pretty much the same way Legolas feels about Goblins.


Angharad73
Rohan

Feb 5 2013, 6:33pm

Post #15 of 25 (495 views)
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It's not just that Thorin felt better... [In reply to] Can't Post

about using it, maybe, but that he realised that Elrond might have been within his rights to keep Orcrist, but instead chose to give it to him.

I'm probably way over-thinking this... I always do.Crazy


Elizabeth
Valinor


Feb 5 2013, 8:26pm

Post #16 of 25 (465 views)
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What "book spoilers"? [In reply to] Can't Post

The movie version of the enmity between the Elves and Dwarves has nothing to do with the account in the book, but was a complete Jackson invention.

In the Reading Room, Nira just posted a link to an excellent article about Tolkien's version(s) of this relationship.








arithmancer
Grey Havens

Feb 5 2013, 8:32pm

Post #17 of 25 (452 views)
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why spoilers... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the poster was marking the post due to mention of future book events involving a main character of the first film.

That is a cool article on the Elves/Dwarves history in the books, though! I think the movie invention is intended to simplify this while still having it present as it plays a role in future events, and is referenced again in the LotR movies.


florian
The Shire

Feb 5 2013, 10:02pm

Post #18 of 25 (444 views)
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There was an earlier thread where a poster got rather upset about reading something in the thread that he didn't know. [In reply to] Can't Post

So I put the spoiler alert in case this person or another didn't know about Thorin's upcoming event. Just trying to be considerate.


Elizabeth
Valinor


Feb 6 2013, 12:54am

Post #19 of 25 (409 views)
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Sorry... [In reply to] Can't Post

On re-reading your post I realize you did give away some book plot points. I was over-reacting to the mixture of book references and Jackson inventions.








IdrilofGondolin
Rohan

Feb 6 2013, 2:00am

Post #20 of 25 (394 views)
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Agree About Elrond [In reply to] Can't Post

They writer did a wonderful job with Elrond in Auj. He was a happy warrior, an indulgent host and and more affable elf then in LOTR. He was certainly more approachable.


Hanzkaz
Rohan

Feb 6 2013, 4:23am

Post #21 of 25 (363 views)
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I suspect they may - [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Speaking of the gold-lust, does anyone feel it will be a lust for the gold that affects him or just for the Arkenstone itself, which represents Erebor and the throne--over which he is most obsessive?


- give subtle hints that the Ring may be exerting it's influence (ie. - encouraging their more negative traits and emotions) on the Company (and perhaps other characters) just before the Battle of Five Armies. I know that officially the Dwarves were resistant to the power of the Rings, but they weren't entirely immune (otherwise they probably would have given the Ring to Gimli instead of Frodo).


I hope they don't come right out and say the Ring is responsible for some of the bad decisions made by the 'good guys', but we could get similar scenes (and a similar accompanying score) to the one in Rivendell during FOTR where the representatives of the various 'good' races seemed about to declare war over the fate of the Ring. People watching the LOTR Trilogy later would start to realise why their 'heroes' had started to act seemingly out out of character in the 'earlier' Trilogy.

___________________________________________________


From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.



swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Feb 6 2013, 4:56am

Post #22 of 25 (395 views)
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not a Thranduil fan... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Having seen what happened in his youth the viewer can sympathize with him. I am not liking Thranduil at all at the moment, tho I am sure he felt justified in his actions. It just seemed like a sorry thing to do to people who had probably come to his aid on more than one ocassion without hesitation.


Sadly, so far in the films we have a fairly bad picture of the Elvenking. I suspect this will change. He has some very nice moments in the book,m toward the end, and (quoting from memory) says sopmething like "Long will I tarry ere I begin this war for gold." ...showing a fair amount of wisdom and patience with the rowdy folks who have invaded his woodland realm, crashed his party (3 times), and "molested" his people at their feasting... and not said anything about why they were there.

Just thought ya' oughta' know the elf viewpoint there...

Go outside and play...


Loresilme
Valinor


Feb 6 2013, 4:50pm

Post #23 of 25 (328 views)
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Good question [In reply to] Can't Post

Would he have give a famous, Dwarven sword to an elf?
______________________________

And going by just the character portrayal so far, I'm not sure he would have.

But I so love the nod he gives Elrond when he accepts it, and the expression- because to me there was a look of faint surprise in his face. Very subtle, and just amazing how RA makes every look speak volumes.


Rostron2
Gondor


Feb 6 2013, 5:17pm

Post #24 of 25 (309 views)
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Thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

Martinez usually goes about this logically.


andwise
Rivendell


Feb 7 2013, 12:05am

Post #25 of 25 (399 views)
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bilbos line. [In reply to] Can't Post

That's a great moment from the prologue.Bilbo saying that line as thorin hammers the iron on the anvil.if you look in the appendices that image is straight from the book,awesome moment! Also when he pulls out the arrow and spits 'elves' it echoes legolas picking up the arrow in moria and spitting 'goblins' fantastic movie making Smile

Arrow....black arrow,I have saved you to the last.you have never failed me and always I have recovered you.I had you from my father and he from old.if ever you came from the forges of the true king under the mountain,go now and speed well

 
 

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