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Question about the nazgul's power!

Victariongreyjoy
Bree

Feb 4 2013, 12:31pm

Post #1 of 13 (605 views)
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Question about the nazgul's power! Can't Post

Why didn't Sauron use the nazgul against the numenoreans or the dunedains if they were so powerful? It seems that when they appear people will flee in terror!


CuriousG
Valinor


Feb 4 2013, 1:53pm

Post #2 of 13 (469 views)
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Nazgul vs Dunedain [In reply to] Can't Post

Sauron used the Nazgul against Numenor, but it appears that Numenor was generally too strong to be overcome by then. The Tale of Years lists their first appearance at 2251. A thousand years later, Sauron was taken prisoner by Numenor without even a fight since Numenor's forces were so much greater than his own, with or without the Nazgul.

The Witch-King of Angmar was the #1 Nazgul, and he caused the destruction of the Dunedain kingdom of Arnor. Later the Nazgul led the siege that resulted in the capture of Minas Ithil; my guess is they used fear to help demoralize the defenders and any help sent from the rest of Gondor, though fear alone wouldn't have been enough.


Victariongreyjoy
Bree

Feb 4 2013, 1:56pm

Post #3 of 13 (452 views)
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The nazguls [In reply to] Can't Post

So numenoreans are more fearless than ordinary? I remember I read something that Boromir managed to fight of the nazguls and reclaim Osgiliath before the war of the ring right?


Nalin sternbolt
The Shire

Feb 4 2013, 9:00pm

Post #4 of 13 (398 views)
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...correct me if I'm wrong [In reply to] Can't Post

In the book the "Grey Company" of the North (Rangers) were the elite crack battalion of Dunedain. They were veterans of many wars and champions for light. Though they "might" have FEAR they could also be COURAGEOUS in the face of it. Remember that RANGERS in Tolkien world is an honor and title. They were more than branch of warriors for the wilderness (a brotherhood of war, so to speak). If Aragorn could take on the "Lord of the Nazgul" in face to face combat, who says that a few of the other of the "Grey Company" could as well.
Another point was that Dunedain were a blessed race of men that had strong minds and wills... They also gained / grew in courage as they aged (could be a long time).

Also to note that not all the Nazgul were natives to the West (Arnor or Gondor region). Some where agents of Sauron from FAR COUNTRIES! Remember that Sauron gave the rings to Lords and Kings of men from around the world.
Nazguls of Note: Witch King of Angmar (Numenorean); Khamul the Easterling,...
The other seven are given honorific titles emphasising aspects of how they are used in the game: The Dark Marshal, The Shadow Lord, The Undying, The Tainted, The Betrayer, The Knight of Umbar and The Dwimmerlaik.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazgul

Peter Jackson, Phillipa Boyens, or Fran Walsh (or anyone else on the Hobbit production) NEED to come out to the Seattle Comicon, @ www.emeraldcitycomicon.com


squire
Valinor


Feb 4 2013, 9:35pm

Post #5 of 13 (397 views)
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The Rangers were not immune to fear of the Nazgul, but they could master it better than most [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that the Dunedain in the Third Age are the most superior race of Men on Middle-earth, with stronger minds and wills than so-called "lesser" men. Because of their innate excellence, they were the least susceptible to the terror that the Nazgul use as their primary weapon. But they were not immune to the fear: remember Aragorn gripping the chair at Bree as he tells Frodo about them, and remember that in Unfinished Tales' "The Hunt for the Ring", the Nazgul scatter the Rangers that Aragorn stationed at Sarn Ford to guard the Shire. And Aragorn never "takes on the 'Lord of the Nazgul' in face to face combat. Rather, he rushes the wraith with torches in hand, knowing that the Witchking would fear fire more than a blade. His goal is to drive the Nazgul away, not to fight him in a duel.

I'm not sure I go along with some of the other terminology you are using. "Elite crack battalion" implies that the Rangers of the North were the best of some battlefield army, but the book is pretty clear that they are all that is left of a former military class; there are not many of them, and they rarely ride together as a fighting force. Their training seems to be more along the lines of Strider's when we first meet him in Bree: wilderness survival, hunting, patrolling, and guarding. So "warriors" and "brotherhood of war" are misleading terms as well, I think. We may remember that Aragorn at the Council of Elrond specifically contrasts his men's methods of fighting the Darkness with those of the trained and assembled armies that Boromir and Faramir lead in Gondor. Only when they finally ride south as the "Gray Company" do we learn that they have knightly training, but we never learn in what manner they actually fight in the final battles at the end of the book.

We should be very clear that the names you found for the eight other Nazgul (besides Khamul) are indeed as "used in [some] game", and not at all from the book. Tolkien never named them, and any of the names given them by numerous game writers in the past few decades are essentially fan fiction.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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CuriousG
Valinor


Feb 4 2013, 10:32pm

Post #6 of 13 (396 views)
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Sorry, that was the movie; also, hobbit bravery? [In reply to] Can't Post

In the books, Boromir tells the Council of Elrond that Gondor lost Osgiliath and destroyed the last bridge there to prevent Sauron's forces from crossing over.

While he doesn't admit to being afraid himself, his comments below on the Nazgul show that his men were afraid. And anyway, later in Minas Tirith everyone is afraid when they fly overhead.

"...but it was not by numbers that we were defeated. A power was there that we have not felt before...Wherever he came a madness filled our foes, but fear fell on our boldest, so that horse and man gave way and fled."

What I'm never quite sure of myself is Gandalf's explanation to Frodo about the Ford of Bruinen's events. Not only does Glorfindel charge the Nazgul with flaming brands, so do Aragorn and the other three hobbits. How did they do that?


(This post was edited by CuriousG on Feb 4 2013, 10:36pm)


Victariongreyjoy
Bree

Feb 5 2013, 6:25am

Post #7 of 13 (380 views)
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Boromir, Faramir courage [In reply to] Can't Post

But without their courage and will to overcome fear, they will never managed to hold the forces of Mordor. Maybe Boromir and Faramir still has a lots of numenorean gene in their. Smile


Nalin sternbolt
The Shire

Feb 5 2013, 4:43pm

Post #8 of 13 (324 views)
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to put the story straight... [In reply to] Can't Post

Blushour most excellent "squire" is getting technical on my post..Unsure. I'm not interested in writing in response to him but in writing for other readers on my posts. The MAIN point of my post and THIS point is to HELP the Victoriangreyjoy to truth. >>I know that I don't have all of it.Tongue

I also don't have the books with me (by memory).Crazy I haven't read all of the "Unfinished Tales" etc. I'm relying on the "Simarrillion".

Point 1: Victoriangreyjoy (I'll call you "Vgj" for short) I partially agree with "squire" (s for now on) about they weren't an elite battle unit... but many, like Aragorn (to my recollection) were war experienced from (LotR & Sim) many unsung wars of the North (Eriador region) and other places (Gondor, etc). When I said "crack battalion" I meant a unit that was of elite fighters... he took it to mean that I thought of them as regular soldiers,... when I meant that they were irregular (wilderness) fighters.

Point 2: Vgh!, "s" disagreed with my brotherhood of war theory. I just liked the term since I added it as a description of their esprit de corps and long history of rugged fighting against the odds. He was unjust to judge my words in that. Unimpressed

Point 3: "s" was pointed about my quoting "wiki" on the history of the Nazgul. I'm not gonna defend wikipedia,Smile I used that as a reference for your benefit as well as others. He can just stay in frustration that I am less of a purist of the books and more interested in talking about a fun topic. NOTE: try looking into the site for more information, just remember that not all is from Tolkien. Some is from Game Designers and enthusiasts! :)

Pont 4: this is the "Main" topic forum. throw out ideas... Vgj, this was a good one! Hopefully I helped!

Peter Jackson, Phillipa Boyens, or Fran Walsh (or anyone else on the Hobbit production) NEED to come out to the Seattle Comicon, @ www.emeraldcitycomicon.com


Escapist
Gondor


Feb 5 2013, 4:50pm

Post #9 of 13 (311 views)
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For some people and in specific situations, fleeing from a Nazgul is absolutely the right and best thing to do. [In reply to] Can't Post

For others, that isn't the best move or option. Among these there are some who can hold their ground as needed and called for. There are others who can do more than this and even strengthen the resolve of others around them.

I'd guess that in all cases, the fear and terror is present.


Nalin sternbolt
The Shire

Feb 5 2013, 5:07pm

Post #10 of 13 (318 views)
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goods points,... but what about... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you have good ideas about Boromir and Faramir. Prince Imaril (not sure on spelling) of Dol Amroth was not swayed by the Black fear but was a beacon of courage to the men of Minas Tirith during the siege.

[theory] Gandalf and Glorfindel had enough "light" to counter the cursed fear of the Nazgul, which might explain why Glorfindel and Aragorn could force the remaining Nazgul into the ford of Bruinen.

[theory] thinking that Aragorn, with Anduril and the "Elf-stone" of Arwen, had the same "light" that Gandalf, Glorfindel, and Prince Imaril possessed.

Someone recollect whether the knights of Dol Amroth were courageous in the face of the Nazgul or not. I knew that the "Army of the Dead" was fearful (like the Black Riders) but the Grey Company were grim and determined in facing them. Aragorn mastered his fears against them,... as well as rescuing Frodo on Weathertop!! [if that's not face to face, then what is??] Sly

The question is whether Aragorn could take on the "Witch-king" face to face then??? One answer... to the ARENA my friends!! Sly

Peter Jackson, Phillipa Boyens, or Fran Walsh (or anyone else on the Hobbit production) NEED to come out to the Seattle Comicon, @ www.emeraldcitycomicon.com


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Feb 5 2013, 5:24pm

Post #11 of 13 (310 views)
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Concerning... [In reply to] Can't Post

whether or not Aragorn could take on the Witch-king face to face, I would say...definitely not.
The Witch-king would have the advantage of having literally thousands of years experience in combat and his name suggests he has some kind of magical powers, too (as do his actions at the gates of Minas Tirith).
But even if Aragorn could match the Witch-king's skills in battle, which I still think is a true possibility despite the above, then Aragorn's problem is that the Witch-king can kill him, but that he cannot kill the Witch-king.

So, all in all I would say that, despite all of Aragorn's qualities and skills, he would -in the end- not really be a match for the Witch-king.

Any thoughts?

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


CuriousG
Valinor


Feb 5 2013, 7:13pm

Post #12 of 13 (335 views)
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Aragorn vs Nazgul [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree it would be no contest. And kingly though he was, Aragorn was still capable of fear, and these monsters had fear as their main weapon.

Nazgul vs. The Dead: The Army of the Dead are scary because they are ghosts, but they're not the corrupted undead servants of the #1 evil lord in Middle-earth. Their fear wasn't the same as a Nazgul's, which was backed up by far more malice. The Oath-breakers even seem a bit sorrowful and repentant, and though Gimli is afraid of them, they pose no menace. Aragorn was also driven by a great need to save his kingdom, which blunted his fear. Had he been taking a casual walk in the Paths of the Dead, the result would have been different. And if he didn't fear the Nazgul at all, he wouldn't have taken hidden roads to get from Weathertop to Rivendell.

Specifically for combat, Eowyn was well-enough trained to not only avoid the attack of the winged beast, but cut its head off in one blow. As for fear, she had the unique circumstance of seeking death, so she wasn't afraid of anything anymore. But still, it seems clear that she would have lost in combat to the W-King on her own. He was about to kill her when Merry got him from behind.


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Feb 10 2013, 9:20am

Post #13 of 13 (384 views)
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In armed combat [In reply to] Can't Post

Aragorn would put the WKing out to pasture, or I should say he would at least be capable of doing so, with or without Anduril.

Earlier comments about Aragorns artifacts possibly duplicating the "light" power of Glorfindel do not match ehat Gandalf says. It is because Glorfindel has lived in the Blessed Realm that he exists in the wraith world and physical world at the same time and has great power over them.

 
 

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