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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Northern Mine Barrage :
a few thoughts on my 7th viewing today.
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MistyMountain
Able Seaman

Feb 4 2013, 1:09am

Post #1 of 38 (1467 views)
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a few thoughts on my 7th viewing today. Can't Post

Went to the Lincoln 13 theater on Broadway in NYC where they have the largest true IMAX screen in the city. Despite numerous warnings, I still made the mistake of sitting too close. Really, you need to sit in the last 2 or 3 rows! Seriously! Of course, it was great anyway. Though it is supposed to be HFR but perhaps I am getting too used to it? It still looks blurry in panning shots. I see no difference at all anymore.

A few thoughts popped into my head:
-- Those ponies (horses) are the furriest horses I've ever seen! Are they a particular breed of horse? Or are they just all in their winter coats? Or did they glue hair onto them?

-- The orcs are riding those wargs with no tack. How they heck do they stay on? I did notice then grabbing the hair on the back of their necks but how do they control them? That fur is probably really slippery. I would fall off in a second!

-- That fish that Dwalin eats at the beginning -- is that real? Did he really bite and chew the head of a real fish? At least it's cooked! I know people DO eat those kinds of things (apparently, my Norwegian grandfather liked to eat fish eyes -- eww!) but I wouldn't want to do more than one take of that shot if I were Graham McTavish.

-- The trolls really are stupid. Didn't they notice when they grabbed the ponies that they had halters on and were tied to trees? Wouldn't that clue you in to the fact that the ponies' owners might be somewhere nearby?

-- Are we supposed to think that Azog believes that Thorin can understand the Black Speech? Does he? Why would he? Can Azog speak the Common Tongue? What good would it do to goad your enemy if he can't understand what you're saying? Am I asking enough questions?

-- Elijah really needed to shave again before he shot some of his scenes. A five o'clock shadow is visible in some of them. Not very hobbit-like.

-- the whole Rhosgobel scene: the spiders are drawn to the house. Why? After the black stuff is drawn out of the hedgehog, the spiders leave. Are they drawn to the Dark Magic? After it is contained in the blue crystal, do they leave because they can't sense it anymore? This has puzzled me the last few viewings.

-- the first wide shot of Rivendell is, IMO, the worst (most obvious) matte painting of all the films so far. Maybe the giant IMAX screen made it even more obvious but it is SO fake looking. It looked so much better in FOTR.

-- those dwarves have to be the worst houseguests ever. Well, they did clean up Bag End very nicely but, in Rivendell, they are burning the furniture! That could be an heirloom from Gondolin!! I am horrified every time I see it.

-- Oin has to be the worst bird watcher on the planet. He called the thrush at the end a raven -- they are not even close to looking anything alike (other than both being birds). I hope we get to see a "real" raven in DoS,

That's it for now. I will have to bring a pad of paper with me next time (if there IS a next time) to take notes.


Loresilme
Quartermaster


Feb 4 2013, 1:32am

Post #2 of 38 (674 views)
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Oooh thoughts and more thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

Went to the Lincoln 13 theater on Broadway in NYC where they have the largest true IMAX screen in the city. Despite numerous warnings, I still made the mistake of sitting too close. Really, you need to sit in the last 2 or 3 rows! Seriously! Of course, it was great anyway. Though it is supposed to be HFR but perhaps I am getting too used to it? It still looks blurry in panning shots. I see no difference at all anymore.
After my second viewing, I got so used to the HFR that I started to think they weren't actually showing us the HFR version, lol. It's amazing how quickly your eyes can adjust to it. Are you sure though that it was the HFR version? Where I am they only had 3D HFR - the IMAX version was 3D, but not HFR.

A few thoughts popped into my head:
-- Those ponies (horses) are the furriest horses I've ever seen! Are they a particular breed of horse? Or are they just all in their winter coats? Or did they glue hair onto them?
According to one of the vlogs - they're wearing fur suits! If I recall correctly, they chose those horses because they had great fur, and then discovered that particular breed sheds. So they had to make fur pony suits :-).

-- The orcs are riding those wargs with no tack. How they heck do they stay on? I did notice then grabbing the hair on the back of their necks but how do they control them? That fur is probably really slippery. I would fall off in a second!
Idk but wargs are pretty ferocious - maybe the first guy that tried to put tack on a warg ... was, er, the last guy that ever tried it, lol. So they just learned to ride bare back :-).

-- That fish that Dwalin eats at the beginning -- is that real? Did he really bite and chew the head of a real fish? At least it's cooked! I know people DO eat those kinds of things (apparently, my Norwegian grandfather liked to eat fish eyes -- eww!) but I wouldn't want to do more than one take of that shot if I were Graham McTavish.
That's a great question - I also had the same question about the stick bug that Gandalf pulls out of Radagast's mouth.

-- The trolls really are stupid. Didn't they notice when they grabbed the ponies that they had halters on and were tied to trees? Wouldn't that clue you in to the fact that the ponies' owners might be somewhere nearby?
Good point - it probably would have occurred to anyone, other than trolls!

-- Are we supposed to think that Azog believes that Thorin can understand the Black Speech? Does he? Why would he? Can Azog speak the Common Tongue? What good would it do to goad your enemy if he can't understand what you're saying? Am I asking enough questions?
I wonder about this too. I don't know if he was supposed to understand it, or if he just heard "Thorin garble garble Thrain", and that was enough for him to fill in the blanks.

-- Elijah really needed to shave again before he shot some of his scenes. A five o'clock shadow is visible in some of them. Not very hobbit-like.
Awww, oh I know, he really has become all grown up. I've looked at some of the FOTR shots since then and he looks soooooo young in them.

-- the whole Rhosgobel scene: the spiders are drawn to the house. Why? After the black stuff is drawn out of the hedgehog, the spiders leave. Are they drawn to the Dark Magic? After it is contained in the blue crystal, do they leave because they can't sense it anymore? This has puzzled me the last few viewings.
I thought the same as you - they were drawn to the dark magic and then left because they couldn't sense it anymore. Not that I particularly understand it either, but I had the same takeaway as you.

-- the first wide shot of Rivendell is, IMO, the worst (most obvious) matte painting of all the films so far. Maybe the giant IMAX screen made it even more obvious but it is SO fake looking. It looked so much better in FOTR.
I really love Rivendell, so I thought it looked beautiful, but I was also really caught up in watching Bilbo's face when he sees it for the first time :-)

-- those dwarves have to be the worst houseguests ever. Well, they did clean up Bag End very nicely but, in Rivendell, they are burning the furniture! That could be an heirloom from Gondolin!! I am horrified every time I see it.
That would be a great Middle Earth Conspiracy Theory! "What was the *real reason* the dwarves snuck out of Rivendell without telling anyone?" lol... like trying to sneak out of your hotel before the management discovers you've trashed your room.

-- Oin has to be the worst bird watcher on the planet. He called the thrush at the end a raven -- they are not even close to looking anything alike (other than both being birds). I hope we get to see a "real" raven in DoS.
I know, right? Aren't they even different colors?

That's it for now. I will have to bring a pad of paper with me next time (if there IS a next time) to take notes.
The only upside to going to the 2D version is, it's easier to take notes without those glasses :-).

P.S. I'm tied with you - 7 times. Hoping for a few more! Thanks for the fun post :-)!




AinurOlorin
First Mate


Feb 4 2013, 1:33am

Post #3 of 38 (636 views)
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Good point on the black speech. And Thorin does seem to understand, which is strange. As to Rhosgobel, [In reply to] Can't Post

Most of us have taken it as the Spiders were trying to get in while Radagast was distracted and either A) The spell that healed the hedgehog had other powers and drove off the spiders as well OR B), once Radagast's attention was free the spiders were afraid to contend with a Wizard in his own abode.

In Reply To
Went to the Lincoln 13 theater on Broadway in NYC where they have the largest true IMAX screen in the city. Despite numerous warnings, I still made the mistake of sitting too close. Really, you need to sit in the last 2 or 3 rows! Seriously! Of course, it was great anyway. Though it is supposed to be HFR but perhaps I am getting too used to it? It still looks blurry in panning shots. I see no difference at all anymore.

A few thoughts popped into my head:
-- Those ponies (horses) are the furriest horses I've ever seen! Are they a particular breed of horse? Or are they just all in their winter coats? Or did they glue hair onto them?

-- The orcs are riding those wargs with no tack. How they heck do they stay on? I did notice then grabbing the hair on the back of their necks but how do they control them? That fur is probably really slippery. I would fall off in a second!

-- That fish that Dwalin eats at the beginning -- is that real? Did he really bite and chew the head of a real fish? At least it's cooked! I know people DO eat those kinds of things (apparently, my Norwegian grandfather liked to eat fish eyes -- eww!) but I wouldn't want to do more than one take of that shot if I were Graham McTavish.

-- The trolls really are stupid. Didn't they notice when they grabbed the ponies that they had halters on and were tied to trees? Wouldn't that clue you in to the fact that the ponies' owners might be somewhere nearby?

-- Are we supposed to think that Azog believes that Thorin can understand the Black Speech? Does he? Why would he? Can Azog speak the Common Tongue? What good would it do to goad your enemy if he can't understand what you're saying? Am I asking enough questions?

-- Elijah really needed to shave again before he shot some of his scenes. A five o'clock shadow is visible in some of them. Not very hobbit-like.

-- the whole Rhosgobel scene: the spiders are drawn to the house. Why? After the black stuff is drawn out of the hedgehog, the spiders leave. Are they drawn to the Dark Magic? After it is contained in the blue crystal, do they leave because they can't sense it anymore? This has puzzled me the last few viewings.

-- the first wide shot of Rivendell is, IMO, the worst (most obvious) matte painting of all the films so far. Maybe the giant IMAX screen made it even more obvious but it is SO fake looking. It looked so much better in FOTR.

-- those dwarves have to be the worst houseguests ever. Well, they did clean up Bag End very nicely but, in Rivendell, they are burning the furniture! That could be an heirloom from Gondolin!! I am horrified every time I see it.

-- Oin has to be the worst bird watcher on the planet. He called the thrush at the end a raven -- they are not even close to looking anything alike (other than both being birds). I hope we get to see a "real" raven in DoS,

That's it for now. I will have to bring a pad of paper with me next time (if there IS a next time) to take notes.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Roheryn
Boatswain

Feb 4 2013, 1:48am

Post #4 of 38 (607 views)
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Great thoughts! [In reply to] Can't Post

And what a neat place to see it, too. We don't have IMAX on this island, and I'm not sure if there's even one in this country. Someday!

I just got back from #13, which, alas, I believe will be my last as I think it leaves all theaters here after tomorrow. Sad day.

Not sure I have time to do justice to your good questions, but I do have one more observation...has anyone else noticed that, in every sequence where Fili doesn't actually have lines (except for the very end when they're on the Carrock), we never actually see his face while he's in the background? I.e., when the other members of the company are in the background, we see their actual faces a lot. Fili, never (except when it's a scene in which he has lines). There are lots of artfully placed axes, shrubberies, heads, etc., and we frequently see his backside (so easily someone besides Dean O'Gorman just wearing Fili's wig and costume), but never his face. In fact, we don't see his face at all from the scene with Kili and Bilbo just before the trolls, until the stone giants sequence; and after we see him helping Bombur up after the stone giant crash, we don't see his face again until they've escaped Goblin-town and are looking around for Bilbo. I suppose this has to do with the switching of the actors, but I had figured that most of the filming was still to be done when Dean O'Gorman joined the cast...was this not the case? Anyone else notice this?

Back later...


Lusitano
Sailing Master


Feb 4 2013, 1:49am

Post #5 of 38 (637 views)
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-- the first wide shot of Rivendell is, IMO, the worst (most obvious) matte painting of all the films so far. Maybe the giant IMAX screen made it even more obvious but it is SO fake looking. It looked so much better in FOTR. [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Well, this is rotk rivendell :

http://lordoftherings.so-obsessed.com/TheReturnOfTheKing_EE/images/ariane179254_TheReturnOfTheKing_EE_05506.jpg

and this is TH :

http://heirsofdurin.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/gandg.jpg

TH's rivendell is so obviously fake...you can just tell where there is a matte painting, the studio, etc...big disappointment. 10 years later, and the place looks worse Crazy

Vous commencez ą m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


morgul lord
Cabin Boy


Feb 4 2013, 2:04am

Post #6 of 38 (662 views)
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The furry ponies [In reply to] Can't Post

are indeed wearing wigs and suits. It's confirmed in the Hobbit artwork book. Apparently PJ wanted real furry ponies, but they shed their shaggy coats during the summer months?

I noticed those ponies on my first viewing, I love them!


(This post was edited by morgul lord on Feb 4 2013, 2:05am)


Eowyn3
Cabin Boy

Feb 4 2013, 3:15am

Post #7 of 38 (567 views)
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My 7th viewing today also! [In reply to] Can't Post

My family and I have discussed the fact that Azog is goading Thorin in Orc speech and my conclusion has always been that he doesn't exactly understand what is being said to him, but he can figure out that Azog is provoking him in some form and that is more than he can take.
About the fish, I have wondered about that too.
And yes, not only are the Dwarves burning the furniture at Rivendell, but where did they find the sausage links? Clearly the Elves didn't serve it to them.
I also have thought of bringing a pad and pencil on my next viewing. Isn't that nerdy? I' m glad I can confess to it on this site. Not too many people would understand. They don't even understand 7 viewings!Wink


Sślimė
Cabin Boy


Feb 4 2013, 5:10am

Post #8 of 38 (517 views)
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Good observation [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Not sure I have time to do justice to your good questions, but I do have one more observation...has anyone else noticed that, in every sequence where Fili doesn't actually have lines (except for the very end when they're on the Carrock), we never actually see his face while he's in the background? I.e., when the other members of the company are in the background, we see their actual faces a lot. Fili, never (except when it's a scene in which he has lines). There are lots of artfully placed axes, shrubberies, heads, etc., and we frequently see his backside (so easily someone besides Dean O'Gorman just wearing Fili's wig and costume), but never his face. In fact, we don't see his face at all from the scene with Kili and Bilbo just before the trolls, until the stone giants sequence; and after we see him helping Bombur up after the stone giant crash, we don't see his face again until they've escaped Goblin-town and are looking around for Bilbo. I suppose this has to do with the switching of the actors, but I had figured that most of the filming was still to be done when Dean O'Gorman joined the cast...was this not the case? Anyone else notice this?


Yeah, I've noticed the 'absence' of Fili but never knew exactly why. Maybe you're right! I didn't notice the artfully placed axes and shrubberies, but if that's really the case I think it can explain a lot. I suspect is has to do with the cast change. I've always felt that Kili gets way more attention, even when someone pointed out how he and Fili seem to have the same amount of lines. Maybe the 'background presence effect' is really the cause!


grammaboodawg
Captain


Feb 4 2013, 5:12am

Post #9 of 38 (516 views)
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I was just getting ready to post a revised list... [In reply to] Can't Post

but you guys are AWESOME!! I have to get up to go to work in a few hours, so I'll add these (and any addl ones) tomorrow (Monday/Feb 4) and post them asap!

Thanks so much for all your quick attention, everyone! I'll be back.

ps... we have over 650 observations on the list!!!! I'll need your help looking it over for fixes/additions/etc.



First draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observation List - updated list coming soon



sample

I'm SO HAPPY these new films take me back to that magical world!!



TIME Google Calendar
TORn's Geeky Observations Lists (updated soon)



Starling
First Mate


Feb 4 2013, 6:04am

Post #10 of 38 (478 views)
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So that's why the ponies looked so weird [In reply to] Can't Post

I knew they were wearing 'suits', but I wasn't sure why. I found them terribly distracting because they looked so fake, but I wondered if they were 'meant to' if that makes sense.
Didn't anyone tell PJ and co that horses moult? Laugh


Old Toby
Gunner


Feb 4 2013, 7:10am

Post #11 of 38 (480 views)
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Great post! Here are some of my thoughts/observations [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay, I went for the 17th time today. And now it's only playing in regular 2D. Sigh. But still, better than old bones, precious!

On the ponies: Having worked with horses most of my life, my thought is that these are regular sized actors on regular sized horses, but they have to look like they are a lot smaller....both the actors and the horses. The horses, in order to look like ponies, have to have more width (weight), shorter legs, and more hair, otherwise they'd just look like small horses. There's a difference structurally between horses and ponies. Anyway, that's my take on why they padded them up and added hair.

On Orcs riding Wargs sans tack: I think it would look just, well, wrong, to have the Wargs with saddles and bridles. They aren't domestic beasts and seem to have more intelligence than your average horse (or dog or wolf ...whatever). Probably they wouldn't tolerate tack. So, the Orcs have to have legs of iron I guess (and must have lots of padding on their collective butts!)

On Dwalin's fish head: I seriously doubt that was a real fish head. How many takes would GM have done in that case? I'd bet ONE! LOL! YUK!

On the pony-grabbing by the trolls: I don't think all the ponies were tied to trees. They probably grabbed those that wandered a ways off from the rest. Or maybe it was just one of those details that the script didn't bother explaining, since it wasn't crucial to the story. (BTW I love that comment by the troll: "I hope you're going to gut these nags. I don't like the stinky parts!")

Thorin and Azog's Black Speech: My take on the scene was that Thorin didn't understand what Azog was saying, although he could probably pick out his name and his father's name. It wouldn't take much to goad Thorin on either. Just Azog's presence would pretty much do it.

Elijah's Shadow: Yes, I noticed he needed a shave as well during one scene! He does look older, and well, that's okay with me. I'd rather have Elijah playing Frodo than someone else who looked Elijah-like!

Rhosgobel: it was always my thought too that the spiders were drawn to the Dark Magic.

Rivendell: I agree. It looks like a painting. Pity, since Rivendell was always one of my favorite places. I think it might have been the colors they chose. It definitely looked better in 3D HFR than 2D. (Maybe since this was 60 years earlier, Rivendell just needed a new paint job!)

On the dwarves table manners at Rivendell: I think they showed disregard for the elves because of their past relationship with them. So I wouldn't expect them to be particularly neat and tidy, nor worry about breaking any of their furniture. And we don't know who supplied the sausage that Bofur tossed to Bombur. They probably had it with them.

One more thing: I love how Bofur pulls Bilbo behind him, to shield him from the oncoming elf troops entering Rivendell. In fact, Bilbo is in the center, protected on all sides.

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


Roheryn
Boatswain

Feb 4 2013, 7:50am

Post #12 of 38 (473 views)
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Some thoughts on your thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

 
-- Those ponies (horses) are the furriest horses I've ever seen! Are they a particular breed of horse? Or are they just all in their winter coats? Or did they glue hair onto them? As others have pointed out, they're in hairy makeup just like the actors! No one bothered to remember before wanting shaggy ponies that ponies are only shaggy in winter. However, I actually find this degree of shagginess rather excessive: few healthy ponies will actually grow that much hair, even in winter (and certainly never in summer). Ponies (or horses) that shaggy likely have a thyroid problem called Cushing's disease, which amongst other problems means they grow really shaggy hair and never shed. So when I see all those really shaggy ponies, as much as I would rather just find them cute, I can't stop thinking they all need some serious vet treatment.
-- The orcs are riding those wargs with no tack. How they heck do they stay on? I did notice then grabbing the hair on the back of their necks but how do they control them? That fur is probably really slippery. I would fall off in a second!

I figure they must all be pretty good riders! I remember the first time I got into something of a horserace riding bareback: before I could do anything about it, my horse and my friend's horse were galloping at breakneck speed and I discovered that the motion of a dead run throws you up on the horse's neck -- if the motion threw you backward, you could grab mane to keep from slipping further back, but the movement is just the opposite. And since you're being thrown forward, you can't haul back on the reins to stop, because that just pulls you up on the neck even more! Naturally, I ended up on my horse's neck hanging on for dear life, and the only thing that saved me was that the dirt road came to an end and my horse decided he'd won the race, so came to a sensible stop on his own. I learned to be a better rider after that! I figure orcs must have a similar learning curve, only maybe if they fall off, they get eaten. Fortunately that's never happened to me. Wink -- That fish that Dwalin eats at the beginning -- is that real? Did he really bite and chew the head of a real fish? At least it's cooked! I know people DO eat those kinds of things (apparently, my Norwegian grandfather liked to eat fish eyes -- eww!) but I wouldn't want to do more than one take of that shot if I were Graham McTavish. Someone asked him about this in a tweet, and he didn't really give a straight answer. Real or not, he manages to eat it with enthusiasm! Mr. Ro gags every time he sees that bit.

-- The trolls really are stupid. Didn't they notice when they grabbed the ponies that they had halters on and were tied to trees? Wouldn't that clue you in to the fact that the ponies' owners might be somewhere nearby? What, you've never known a group of ponies that haltered themselves, went on a trek together, then tied themselves up to trees? Ponies can be pretty unusual in Middle-earth!

-- Are we supposed to think that Azog believes that Thorin can understand the Black Speech? Does he? Why would he? Can Azog speak the Common Tongue? What good would it do to goad your enemy if he can't understand what you're saying? Am I asking enough questions? Thorin's clever and good with words (okay, and we REALLY like to listen to him saying those words), but I have trouble believing he ever learned Black Speech. That can't be a part of basic Dwarf-prince education. Advanced Table Manners; Majestic Hair Tossing; Recognition of Precious Gems; Use of Anvil and Forge (But Only When You're Desperate); Advance Sword/Axe Fighting; Basic Pony Riding (And How To Look Majestic While Doing So); Recognition of Dragon-sickness in Close Relatives; Advanced Techniques in Hair Braiding; -- yes, I can see all of these lessons, but even beginning lessons in Black Speech? Doubt it. Thusly, I figure Thorin's just shocked enough to see Azog alive that he doesn't need any translation; he's going in for (what he hopes will be) the kill regardless of the taunts.

-- Elijah really needed to shave again before he shot some of his scenes. A five o'clock shadow is visible in some of them. Not very hobbit-like.
Clearly a foreshadowing of the dwarves to come.
-- the whole Rhosgobel scene: the spiders are drawn to the house. Why? After the black stuff is drawn out of the hedgehog, the spiders leave. Are they drawn to the Dark Magic? After it is contained in the blue crystal, do they leave because they can't sense it anymore? This has puzzled me the last few viewings.
No idea. I'd wondered if they just liked the sound of Radagast's spell, and they left when he finished because they lost interest.
-- the first wide shot of Rivendell is, IMO, the worst (most obvious) matte painting of all the films so far. Maybe the giant IMAX screen made it even more obvious but it is SO fake looking. It looked so much better in FOTR. You mean you can take your eyes of the dwarves to notice the view? I spend that whole scene checking out the back of everyone's hairdos. Not often we get to see their backs for that long.

-- those dwarves have to be the worst houseguests ever. Well, they did clean up Bag End very nicely but, in Rivendell, they are burning the furniture! That could be an heirloom from Gondolin!! I am horrified every time I see it. Utterly irreverent, they are. They crack me up there. Nori says in the background something like, "What? It's not like you didn't do it too..." and I wonder if he's referring to breaking up some furniture for firewood. They're so out of place in Rivendell, and I love the way they take wherever they find themselves and make the most of it. They haven't had an easy life but they still know how to have fun when they can. I also like how Thorin's never around for the merrymaking -- we never get to see him let his hair down, so to speak.

-- Oin has to be the worst bird watcher on the planet. He called the thrush at the end a raven -- they are not even close to looking anything alike (other than both being birds). I hope we get to see a "real" raven in DoS, Well, he may not be good, but I wouldn't call him the worst. I've taken lots of clueless students birdwatching, and I assure you that many of them wouldn't even know that there are things called ravens, and things called thrushes, and that both of these things are (very different) birds.

That was fun. Thanks for sharing these! :-)



Starling
First Mate


Feb 4 2013, 7:56am

Post #13 of 38 (436 views)
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Lol! [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought of Cushing's disease when I saw those ponies too. Perhaps it was really on purpose, for sharp-eyed horsey geeks. Wink


Silverlode
Terror of the Seas / Moderator


Feb 4 2013, 8:08am

Post #14 of 38 (524 views)
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Just back from #5. New observations and some personal commentary. [In reply to] Can't Post

New stuff I noticed:

The helmet Frodo takes out of the chest is not the same as the dwarves wear, though it has some similar elements - but it's not a goblin/orc design either; none of the goblins or orcs in this movie appear to be wearing helmets. So now I'm wondering if it could be a helmet from Dain's army. It will be very interesting to see where Bilbo picks it up.

I have noticed Frodo's 5 o'clock shadow also, and I find it very distracting. His face has lost some of its baby fat too, and his face is more angular than it was in LOTR - but the unshaven look is more distracting.

Radagast wears shoes rather than boots, and they have curled toes. You can see them when he picks up Sebastian from the forest floor, and little flashes of them while he is running.

Bombur is the one breathing in moths while he snores, not Gloin. You can see the edge of his bald spot and also his rope of hair.

Orcrist's hilt appears to be made of antler - perhaps an antler of the same sort of creature as Thranduil's mount? Maybe Turgon's army officers rode Megaloceros too?

In Rivendell, I don't think Elrond's Elvish was directed at the dwarves (as they assume) even though he's looking at the dwarves, I think it's a directive to the other Elves to prepare for guests. As the dwarves are busy being insulted about it, you can see elves heading up the stairway behind Elrond to carry out his orders.

I just noticed (and loved) the huge Elvish figure carved out of the rock wall behind the Moon Rune Reader platform.

The Gobin Town trapdoor chute ends in a rock outcrop that looks like a goblin face, while the rock shelf and metal cage below it looks like an arm with a clawed hand at the end of it - so when the Company falls down into it, it looks like a goblin vomiting into its hand. Tongue Typical goblin humor, I'd say.

The Great Goblin never blinks, except once he does a sort of half squint. In fact, I don't think he has eyelids...not normal ones that can cover his eyeballs, anyway. Was he born without, or did some enemy rip them off when he was a Little Goblin?

I don't think Thorin needs to understand what Azog is saying - in fact, I don't think Thorin reacts to what he says at all. After Azog does his little taunting speech, all Thorin says is "It cannot be true!"; he's still busy trying to get his head around the fact that Azog is still alive.

In the last scene of the Company standing on the Carrock, you can see steps running down the side.

Personal reactions/commentary:

Tonight I finally figured out what bothers me about Azog. He's never struck me as quite real, or in keeping with the other characters/creatures but I have decided it's not the CGI, or the animation, or the creature design, or any of the other things I've seen people talk about. It's actually quite simple - he moves and talks as if he is in slow motion at all times, even when no one else is. Now, the slow movements I could shrug off as simply being a big, muscle-bound orc, although it is a bit excessive and "look at the big bad orc" for my taste, but what really gets on my nerves is how he talks in slow motion. All other orcs and creatures talk at normal speed, but he always talks slooowly and over-enunciates everything. Basically, he's (and I hate to say this).....Celeborc. Yes, folks, he and Celeborn speak with exactly the same cadence, and it doesn't work for either one of them. And Azog doesn't have the excuse of speaking in a second language. I think if Azog would just speak at normal speed like all the other orcs I'd find him more realistic and believable. At any rate, I'm relieved to have put my finger on the problem because it means I can now take it out of the mental category of "Why does this bug me so much?" and file it under "Things I'll just have to live with" and ignore it as best I can in future viewings.

I've never been a figurine or statue collector, but if they come out with a good one of Gandalf riding an Eagle I may just have to get one. I Heart the flying scenes at the end of the movie and they don't last nearly long enough for my taste. In fact, if there ever is a Middle-earth theme park (not that I'm really an advocate of one) they need to have a ride like the "Soaring Over California" ride at Disney's California Adventure park. Only it should being Soaring (on Eagles) over Middle-Earth (New Zealand). In 3D/48fps, of course. I would be first in line. Cool

In the AbsurdMoviePhysics category, does it bother/amuse anyone else that the pine trees on the cliff have no root systems to speak of? They fall over far, far too easily (trees do not fall over like dominoes, even when other trees fall on them)....except the last one which has far less depth of soil/rock for roots of any kind, much less a tap root but hangs on anyway. Cue major eye-rolling for me every time. Tongue

Why do they have Oin read the portents, and then misidentify the bird at the end? It weakens the interpretation of the prophecy. And who really thinks a thrush looks anything like a raven? That whole bit of conversation on the Carrock is odd.

And a personal observation about HFR. This is my 4th time seeing this in HFR (5th viewing overall), and my experiences went something like this:

1. Midnight premiere - 3D/HFR I liked it but found the 3D a little "layered"-looking and occasionally distracting. I feel like 3D/HFR is neat, but not necessary.

2. 2D/24fps Wow, this is really blurry by comparison, I can hardly focus on scenes with sweeping camera movements, especially the first panning shots inside Erebor.

3. 3D/HFR. Took my mom to see it. She really likes the HFR, but I notice a little bit of the "too-real" or "stagey" effect in some scenes, especially in Bag End and, oddly, in the shot of Gandalf and Thorin arguing in the ruins of the farmhouse. Now I know why others have complained. Still much prefer HFR to 2D though.

4. HFR is gone from my local AMC theaters, but I discover that it's still playing in a local Cinemark theater. I take my Dad to see it. It looks gorgeous, far better than it did at the (far newer, less "run-down") AMC and my dad (who just turned 75) thought it looked terrific. He said, "Every movie should look like that!" I agree, though I noticed the sound was out in one of the surround speakers. Well, it's an old theater.

5. HFR again. Second viewing at the Cinemark, different auditorium. My mom came back again for seconds. Still looks perfect. She and I agree that it looked exceptionally natural and beautiful, much better than at the AMC.

In thinking over the difference between the theaters, I've concluded that the problem with the AMC is that they showed it too bright. It accentuated contrasts and made even some of the location shots look hyper-real (and thus unreal), and made the effects shots look out of place. Not that the Cinemark seems dark - on the contrary, it looks perfect. Easy on the eyes, beautiful, and everything works together. Now, granted, some of this may be the result of "getting used to it", but I don't really think so. I didn't originally think it was too bright when I saw it, but in hindsight, having seen it as it really should be, I do think so. Incidentally, AMC dropped HFR two weeks ago, while the Cinemark has dropped its other formats and is still showing HFR. I have no way of knowing what these decisions were based on, but part of me wonders if it could possibly have anything to do with it looking so much better at the Cinemark that it became the popular option. Now I may have to rethink my premiere plans for next year. I can put up with uncomfortable seats and occasional sound snafus if it looks this good!

Silverlode






Elizabeth
Quartermaster


Feb 4 2013, 8:09am

Post #15 of 38 (445 views)
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Scheduling difficulties? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like O'Gorman was only available on set for a limited time, for whatever reason. That was the case with Karl Urban on TTT, which is why he didn't appear in the very last scene of the folks on horseback on the hill (they were supposed to paste his face on the stand-in, but forgot).








Tintallė
Gunner


Feb 4 2013, 8:25am

Post #16 of 38 (543 views)
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Love these! Some thoughts. . . [In reply to] Can't Post

Those ponies (horses) are the furriest horses I've ever seen! Are they a particular breed of horse? Or are they just all in their winter coats? Or did they glue hair onto them?

I have no idea, but I love their shaggy look and I particularly love one bit of the behind the scenes videos in which Thorin and his pony are having a bit of hair/mane tossing rivalry.

That fish that Dwalin eats at the beginning -- is that real? Did he really bite and chew the head of a real fish? At least it's cooked! I know people DO eat those kinds of things (apparently, my Norwegian grandfather liked to eat fish eyes -- eww!) but I wouldn't want to do more than one take of that shot if I were Graham McTavish.

Having eaten a whole fish as well as chicken feet in a Chinese restaurant I can say I'd take a crispy fish head over the chicken feet any day.

The trolls really are stupid. Didn't they notice when they grabbed the ponies that they had halters on and were tied to trees? Wouldn't that clue you in to the fact that the ponies' owners might be somewhere nearby?

Fat juicy ponies vs. tough old hairy dwarves - no contest. I'm surprised the trolls stopped at 4 ponies - I'd have thought they'd go back for the whole lot.

Are we supposed to think that Azog believes that Thorin can understand the Black Speech? Does he? Why would he? Can Azog speak the Common Tongue? What good would it do to goad your enemy if he can't understand what you're saying? Am I asking enough questions?

I think Thorin realized that what Azog was essentially saying was "NEENER NEENER NEENER." Apparently goading comes across pretty clearly regardless of the delivery tongue; on the other hand, an invitation to dinner may be mistaken for goading if you're a dwarf among elves.

Elijah really needed to shave again before he shot some of his scenes. A five o'clock shadow is visible in some of them. Not very hobbit-like.

I never noticed that - I'll definitely look for it next time!

The whole Rhosgobel scene: the spiders are drawn to the house. Why? After the black stuff is drawn out of the hedgehog, the spiders leave. Are they drawn to the Dark Magic? After it is contained in the blue crystal, do they leave because they can't sense it anymore? This has puzzled me the last few viewings.

Best guess is that the evil was spreading throughout Mirkwood and Radagast's house was the last to be overcome, but once he started his chanting spell his power warded off the evil spiders as well as the dark magic sickening Sebastian. Sebastian! What a cute name for the little creature. Almost makes me want to have a hedgehog of my own.

The first wide shot of Rivendell is, IMO, the worst (most obvious) matte painting of all the films so far. Maybe the giant IMAX screen made it even more obvious but it is SO fake looking. It looked so much better in FOTR.

I honestly didn't notice this. It may be because I rather expected Rivendell to be a picture of peace and beauty. I guess it actually was!

Those dwarves have to be the worst houseguests ever. Well, they did clean up Bag End very nicely but, in Rivendell, they are burning the furniture! That could be an heirloom from Gondolin!! I am horrified every time I see it.

On a distantly related note I LOVE Bofur falling over with laughter in that scene. I love Bofur anyway - always a mischievous streak!

Oin has to be the worst bird watcher on the planet. He called the thrush at the end a raven -- they are not even close to looking anything alike (other than both being birds). I hope we get to see a "real" raven in DoS,

I guess Ori needs glasses as well as his ear trumpet!


Tintallė
Gunner


Feb 4 2013, 8:32am

Post #17 of 38 (459 views)
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Celeborc! Bwahahahahaha!!!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Have you noticed that when Radagast is sitting in his chair with the mice running up his legs he has two different shoes on? On his left is the blue-ish shoes with the curled toe, and on his right is something that looks more like a brocade house slipper. Someone else mentioned his mismatched shoes and tonight I finally got a good look at them.

Nice catch on Bombur snoring. And now I want to go back and look for Frodo's 5 o'clock shadow. the carved figure behind the crystal platform, the goblin face and clawed hand, and the steps on the Carrock.

I love, love love the eagles in HFR 3D. That scene is just gorgeous.

Thanks for your obs - I will look forward to looking for them!


Starling
First Mate


Feb 4 2013, 8:45am

Post #18 of 38 (470 views)
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"Tell me, where is Thorin? For I much desire to speak with him." [In reply to] Can't Post

You are so right - he is 'Celeborc'. Crazy


Tinne
Swabbie


Feb 4 2013, 9:08am

Post #19 of 38 (469 views)
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Orcrist's hilts [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Orcrist's hilt appears to be made of antler - perhaps an antler of the same sort of creature as Thranduil's mount? Maybe Turgon's army officers rode Megaloceros too?




Orcrist's hilts is made from dragon
tooth.


(This post was edited by Tinne on Feb 4 2013, 9:09am)


Silverlode
Terror of the Seas / Moderator


Feb 4 2013, 10:40am

Post #20 of 38 (404 views)
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Really? [In reply to] Can't Post

Where does that information come from? Because it doesn't look anything like a tooth to me.

Silverlode






Tinne
Swabbie


Feb 4 2013, 10:49am

Post #21 of 38 (412 views)
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Orcrist [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps here:
http://www.wetanz.com/...dsmith-s-collection/


stoutfiles
Rigger


Feb 4 2013, 11:45am

Post #22 of 38 (476 views)
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I would expect Thorin to understand Black Speech [In reply to] Can't Post

Are we supposed to think that Azog believes that Thorin can understand the Black Speech? Does he? Why would he? Can Azog speak the Common Tongue? What good would it do to goad your enemy if he can't understand what you're saying? Am I asking enough questions?

In war it is common to understand your enemies language for intercepting messages, relaying messages, etc. Being as involved in everything as Thorin tends to be, I'm sure he would have learned the language.



Angharad73
Rigger

Feb 4 2013, 12:39pm

Post #23 of 38 (369 views)
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It also says so in the WETA Art & Design book [In reply to] Can't Post

The tooth is a play on the name Orcrist - the Biter. - which is why they went with that design, apparently.

I wouldn't have recognised it as a tooth either...


Aragalen the Green
Gunner


Feb 4 2013, 1:07pm

Post #24 of 38 (368 views)
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Sausage links! [In reply to] Can't Post

Bofur took the sausage links from Nori at Bag End, and must have packed them up with food for the journey. I'm pretty sure Bofur is the one who tosses the sausage to Bombur in Rivendell (ah, brotherly love Heart).

'"Never laugh at live dragons, Bilbo you fool!" he said to himself, and it became a favourite saying of his later, and passed into a proverb.'


grammaboodawg
Captain


Feb 4 2013, 3:31pm

Post #25 of 38 (304 views)
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Awesome! [In reply to] Can't Post

THANKS!

from WETA's description:


Quote

The blade is made from tempered spring steel and the dragon's tooth grip....
...On the cross is the name "Orcrist" etched in runes and the gently curvaceous blade, ground from spring steel, features etched elven runes stating "The Serpent's Tooth". On the pommel are four ... ...gemstones inlaid.
The scabbard is made from a combination of white oak and steel and connects to the leather belt with leather straps and buckles. The inscription translates as "Born from the Maws of Dragons I am Always Hungry and Thirsty".




First draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observation List - updated list coming soon



sample

I'm SO HAPPY these new films take me back to that magical world!!



TIME Google Calendar
TORn's Geeky Observations Lists (updated soon)


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