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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Problems for DoS
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Hamfast of Gamwich
Rivendell


Feb 3 2013, 9:47pm

Post #1 of 34 (1647 views)
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Problems for DoS Can't Post

How do people think PJ and co will get around the fact that the company aren't involved in either of the major concluding set pieces to the film - Smaug's attack on Laketown or the attack on Dol Guldur?

I imagine this will be viewed by critics at the time as a major flaw with the film, just as the long intro to AUJ was a stumbling block for the first film.


Eye's on Guard
Lorien


Feb 3 2013, 10:05pm

Post #2 of 34 (852 views)
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Good point... [In reply to] Can't Post

For Smaug v. Laketown to work well, Bard needs to become a major character (it looks like they're doing that).

Dol Guldur needs to be an "ensemble" piece for the other major characters (from LOTR, AUJ, or first half of DOS) . It would fantastic to see Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond, Radagast, and Beorn team up against the power of the Necromancer.


Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


Feb 3 2013, 10:08pm

Post #3 of 34 (845 views)
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Critics can say (and think) what they like [In reply to] Can't Post

The majority of the public (myself included) prefer to make our own minds up rather than listening to the opinions of critics, particularly the critic that claimed "Tolkien couldn't write a decent plot at gunpoint" or words to that effect.

That man (or woman) should be a professional troll, not a critic!

Sorry if I went off on a tangent but this kind of thing really irritates me!Laugh

In seriousness though I get where you're coming from, but personally I think it make quite a nice change-after all, the Dwarves aren't the only characters in the film. Bard needs some serious screen time and action if he's to be taken seriously. I suppose all the LOTR films ended with Frodo and/or Sam, but maybe this one could end with a dead dragon-after all, in essence AUJ ended with Smaug.

"These are Gundabad Wargs! They will outrun you!"

"THESE are Rhosgobel Rabbits! I'd like to see them try...."



(This post was edited by Radagast-Aiwendil on Feb 3 2013, 10:12pm)


pulpfiction16
Rivendell

Feb 3 2013, 10:26pm

Post #4 of 34 (756 views)
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It's just an opinion ... [In reply to] Can't Post

I like Tolkien a lot, but I can see the argument for where his world building, lore building, and dialogue is better than his narrative writing (as in regards to pacing, plotting, movement of story, character arcs, etc.).

People point to things like Tom Bombadil, Scouring of the Shire, which were both wisely cut from the films, and in the case of the Hobbit sticking too close to the text and having the somewhat groan inducing constant Gandalf rescues + Eagle-ex-machina ending.

Furthermore, one could make a case for static + passive characterization such as 13 dwarves, most of whom have no real characteristics or background, or weak characters who experience no growth throughout the story such as Aragorn who always wanted to be king, or evil evil Boromir. Those are respects that I think Jackson actually changed for the better in the films than in the novel.

Gotta accept criticism .. especially when it isn't even directed at your work.


Hamfast of Gamwich
Rivendell


Feb 3 2013, 10:51pm

Post #5 of 34 (709 views)
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I think... [In reply to] Can't Post

..all those things are fine in the book which you can read in a more episodic way, but I agree they were wisely cut from the film.

I really hope there is a scene at the start of DoS in which Bofur says "Why couldn't those bloody eagles have just flown us to the mountain?" to which Gandalf explains the situation in a clever and concise sentence or two.

To answers my own question, personally I think the Wood Elves will be involved in either Smaug's attack or Dol Guldur if not both. Bard probably won't be introduced until half way through, so they'll need to be some other characters who we care about involved in the attack.


Ruxendil_Thoorg
Grey Havens


Feb 3 2013, 11:08pm

Post #6 of 34 (716 views)
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Intercutting, and Gandalf [In reply to] Can't Post

The Laketown issue:

You're right, it's an issue that the Company, particularly Bilbo, is not in Laketown during Smaug's attack. However, symbolically, Bilbo *is* there...by way of the thrush as his proxy.

So, PJ might try to emphasize the thrush, and use intercutting to remind us of Bilbo's role in acquiring the intel that the thrush delivers to Bard's ear. PJ might intercut from Bard nocking the Black Arrow, to Bilbo murmuring anxiously to himself about Smaug's weakspot, frantically hoping that there might be a way to convey that intel to someone who could exploit it. The intercutting could be used to create the impression that Bilbo is, symbolically at least, if not literally by some kind of divine or karmic providence, whispering to Bard at that very moment.

Dol Goldur:

My feeling is that the Dol G attack scene will not suffer from the problem with the Laketown attack scene, because Gandalf is the main character in the Dol Goldur side story. The audience will connect with him as part of the Company initially, and a main character throughout the whole series. Also, PJ could intercut those scenes with Bilbo and Co. worrying about Gandalf, hoping he is OK and will reunite with them. The more PJ can connect the Dol G sideplot with Bilbo, the better.

A bag is like a hole that you can carry with you.

http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_expanded;


sycorax82
Rohan

Feb 4 2013, 3:16am

Post #7 of 34 (586 views)
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There's definitely gonna be a Bilbo/Dwarves action setpiece [In reply to] Can't Post

What about this idea - Bilbo and the Dwarves face-off against Smaug on the mountainside? Also I have a strong feeling that Azog will catch up with the company again.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Feb 4 2013, 4:04am

Post #8 of 34 (592 views)
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Has it been confirmed that these both are in DoS? [In reply to] Can't Post

Because I don't think either of them will be in film 2, and I won't think that until it's confirmed on way or another. It makes no sense to me to kill off Smaug at the end of film 2. Neither does it make sense to have the assault on Dol Guldor in film two unless the assault is not the climax of the storyline. The climax of the white council story has to come in film three, IMO.

There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Feb 4 2013, 5:57am

Post #9 of 34 (553 views)
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so let me understand [In reply to] Can't Post

you don't want either the dol-guldur battle or smaug to die in film 2....? what is it you would like to see in DOS exactly??


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty, oh will you please take me home!!

(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Feb 4 2013, 5:58am)


redgiraffe
Rohan

Feb 4 2013, 7:03am

Post #10 of 34 (521 views)
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These last 2 comments [In reply to] Can't Post

Last two comments (second being MOS) are the big questions about how DOS's ending will be handled.

In my opinion, I don't think it would be a good idea to kill off smaug in the second film. And After seeing how little the WC storyline progressed in the first film I would like to see it fleshed out over the next film and concluded somewhere in the third.

But MoS brings up a good point. What's supposed to happen in the next film? There should be some sort of major climax or arc to each plotline. Although, there wasn't really one for the white council in the first movie.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


Angharad73
Rohan

Feb 4 2013, 8:46am

Post #11 of 34 (487 views)
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If I had to hazard a guess... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I would say that Smaug dies at the end of DoS and the assault on Dol Guldur will be in TABA.

There has to be a climactic (for the second movie, not the trilogy) battle of a fight of some sort in DoS, so unless there are some insertions into the storyline, what other possible scenes are there? And putting Dol Guldur into TABA would make sense to me as it serves as a bridge towards LOTR.

Of course, I'm probably utterly wrong. I'm never good at guessing this sort of thing.Crazy


redgiraffe
Rohan

Feb 4 2013, 9:00am

Post #12 of 34 (465 views)
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You might be wrong, and you might be right [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
... I would say that Smaug dies at the end of DoS and the assault on Dol Guldur will be in TABA.

There has to be a climactic (for the second movie, not the trilogy) battle of a fight of some sort in DoS, so unless there are some insertions into the storyline, what other possible scenes are there? And putting Dol Guldur into TABA would make sense to me as it serves as a bridge towards LOTR.

Of course, I'm probably utterly wrong. I'm never good at guessing this sort of thing.Crazy


That's the fun of speculation at this pointCool.

The only thing is that if they do put Smaug's death at the end of the 2nd film (and it's totally plausible and not a bad ending), they have to have something in the movie to allow get people to come back and see the next one.

All of us fans know of course that there's still a good bit of story left to tell. But we can't fool ourselves into thinking that the average audience should be as knowledgeable. Heck, I remember when FOTR came out there were so many people complaining about how it "had no ending". These people didn't understand that there were supposed to be three parts to the story.

So, for the hobbit I think the best way to do this would be to introduce the idea that there will be a large battle taking place within DOS early on. So that people will know that smaug's death is not the end. Trust me, people will complain about this is it ends with smaug's death. They are going to think "well that's it, what more is there to tell with the dwarf storyline?"

I think the best thing to do though is to have Bilbo's interaction be the climax, or have (as mentioned earlier) Smaug attacking the dwarves after the interaction be the climax, or have a new climax kind of added in like with the dwarves being attacked by Azog again - although I'm sure a lot of book fans will dislike this.

This has always been the tricky part of adapting the hobbit into a film, whether it be 1,2, or 3 films. The main villain dies long before the end! I mean imagine if Sauron died long before the end of ROTK. How would that look in an adaptation? Oh... waitWink

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Feb 4 2013, 10:29am

Post #13 of 34 (476 views)
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A possible solution to your concern might be [In reply to] Can't Post

The main plot ends with the spine of the chapter "Inside Information" which acts as riddles in the first movie with Bilbo and Smaug conversation grown into a beautiful chamber piece. Bilbo returns to the Dwarves debriefs them and they decide to shut the door in the nick of time.

This can be intercut with a successful BODG and Gandalf looking North pondering the fate of the company. Just when you think the movies finished we get his Smaugship emerging from the mountain in all his magnificience pounding the side of the mountain and flying off to Lake Town and cut.

The final movie is then the most amazing prologue featuring the destruction of LT and Smaug.

The first act deals with all the geo political and personal consequences of the dragons death.

The second act is the BOTFA.

The third act involves the specific consequences of the battle and ties it all up with some nice forshadowing of the LOTR. It is only a partial victory a withdrawal by Sauron.

There is a good deal to get through in that third movie besides the obvious inner completions the Iron Hills/Laketown men/Sindarian Army/Gunderbad and at a personal level Dain,Master/Bard,Tauriel, Radagast, Beorn and the orc we love to hate Azog (or Bolg) all have to be completed and we may get the Balin visit to Bag End and see a rebuilt Dale and Erebor so I think PJ will stick with what he indicated to Cate Blanchett who believes right now she is only in the first two movies and the sub plot will conclude in the second movie.

I tried to save the shire , and it has been but not for me.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Feb 4 2013, 10:33am)


CathrineB
Rohan


Feb 4 2013, 10:38am

Post #14 of 34 (464 views)
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Hmm (spoilers) [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't help wondering what the last movie will contain though. The whole movie can't possibly be one big battle scene?

But I think Smaug will die in the second movie as the third movie has the big battle. Also I think they have to make Bard a big character as he's in Lake Town, maybe Tauriel and Legolas will be there?
Then at first I thought perhaps the Company is in the city as it's attacked, but that's impossible as there is a photo of Bilbo with all the gold in Erebor - meaning Smaug has to be there for their convo too. So yeah. Maybe Smaug tries to get a hold of the Company on the mountain side before going off to Lake Town?


Súlimë
Rivendell


Feb 4 2013, 11:00am

Post #15 of 34 (443 views)
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I'm wondering the same thing [In reply to] Can't Post

Right now I don't see a good ending point for DoS. I don't think they can kill Smaug in the second movie. It will just make the audience go "What? The dragon is dead and there is yet ANOTHER 3-hour movie?"

To end DoS, there has to be some resolution. AUJ did it with Bilbo 'proving himself' and being accepted fully into the company, which was good enough. In DoS there has to be some good point to end -- a small victory that will build up to the final movie.

This is why I suspect major changes in the plot/timeline in DoS and TABA -- something that will make the purists scream "Blasphemy!", like Bilbo being in Laketown when Smaug attacks Laugh


Arannir
Valinor

Feb 4 2013, 1:56pm

Post #16 of 34 (418 views)
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I am still in favour of a third option... [In reply to] Can't Post

... ending DoS with the Dol Guldur "battle" (I think it will be a mere skirmish, centered on Gandalf) and with Bilbo (actively) sending the thrush to Laketown.


I cannot see Smaug dying in film 2. Despite the power-realities and the WC-storyline, people will always see Smaug as the main antagonist of this trilogy, imho. He should therefor be in film 3, emphasizing the unusual plotline to have a major event evolving AFTER the antagonist's death rather than this death ending the main-story. The Bot5A would receive a much better build-up imho with the death of Smaug in the same movie.

Yes, him leaving Erebor by the end of DoS is a rather series-like cliffhanger. But remember, it is only half a year between the two movies. And Bilbo's storyarch has quite a good climax with the riddles and escape. Plus the sending of the thrush could be rather emotional, since the hope for Laketown is very small.

For the WC storyline - yes, this would mean that Sauron would not figure very much in TABA. But I think this is acceptable story-wise because of two things: a) I doubt the WC storyline will ever build up the same emotional involvement than Bilbo's will. It ties the Hobbit nicely to LotR, gives Gandalf a lot of urgency to reach Erebor in time and fleshes out the bigger movements in Middle-earth. I do not think it has to build up a DG-battle until film 3. b) Sauron can still be involved in TABA through the possible connection between him and Azog/Bolg.


painjoiker
Grey Havens


Feb 4 2013, 2:23pm

Post #17 of 34 (405 views)
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I don't think Smaug vs. Lake Town will be in DoS [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Smaug vs. the Dwarves on the mountainside will be expanded upon and be inter-cut with the battle of Dol Guldur!

Vocalist in the progressive metal band Renamed.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Feb 4 2013, 2:31pm

Post #18 of 34 (388 views)
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I would like to see... [In reply to] Can't Post

Beorn, spiders, dwarves in captivity, barrels out of bond, introduction at Laketown, journey to the Lonely Mountain, and Bilbo's two trips into the mountain, including his conversation with Smaug. Plus, I know there will be some sort of White Council plot.

There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).


Ardamírë
Valinor


Feb 4 2013, 2:44pm

Post #19 of 34 (374 views)
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I'm sure they'll make up a climax [In reply to] Can't Post

just as they did for AUJ. I'm not worried about that. But I don't think that climax will be Smaug's death or a battle at Dol Guldor. I don't see it as Dol Guldor for the same reason as you, but neither do I think it'll be Smaug's death. That's never been a climax of the story, and I don't think it'll be one now. Like the OP said, it doesn't have anything to do with Bilbo and the dwarves, so it can't really be the climax anyway.

I'll wait and see, of course, but that's what I'm banking on at the moment.

There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).


Ardamírë
Valinor


Feb 4 2013, 2:49pm

Post #20 of 34 (381 views)
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If the rumors of... [In reply to] Can't Post

Sauron at the BoFA end up being true, then it does make sense to have the battle of Dol Guldor in film 2. I agree that if it's in film 2, it should be no more than a skirmish.

I will say, though, that I have no desire to see Sauron at BoFA. It would be a horrible idea, IMO.

There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).


Arannir
Valinor

Feb 4 2013, 2:53pm

Post #21 of 34 (386 views)
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For clarificiation... [In reply to] Can't Post

I do not want to see Sauron physically there either (I can hardly believe they would do that after all the reasons they brought forward why they cut it out of RotK).

I just meant he would still have a presence in the storyline, if a direct link between Azog's and Bolg's doings is established until then (which, I think, is one of the things hinted at via the Mordor theme during Thorin vs. Azog). He would not just drop out of the story as soon as DG is over. Actually, having DG and Bot5A apart from each other would even make it easier to underline that he is by no means defeated, but that he is already starting to spread Evil and that the attack on DG, overall, is rather fruitless - and even dangerous, because of gandalf's abscence from the North


(This post was edited by Arannir on Feb 4 2013, 2:55pm)


redgiraffe
Rohan

Feb 4 2013, 3:18pm

Post #22 of 34 (390 views)
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**SPOILERS** [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
. b) Sauron can still be involved in TABA through the possible connection between him and Azog/Bolg.


From what we know Sauron will probably have something to do with the battle without having him show up there. My theory is he will be the reason why the orcs show up - which is different from the books but it wouldn't be that big of a change, IMO.

We know from the rumors that Bolg is apparently working in DG as a torturer. Azog also has had the Mordor theme played over his appearance throughout AUJ.

So I'm guessing that these guys are probably working for Sauron, and he sends them to the Lonely Mountain for some reason.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


redgiraffe
Rohan

Feb 4 2013, 3:19pm

Post #23 of 34 (346 views)
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of course [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I do not want to see Sauron physically there either (I can hardly believe they would do that after all the reasons they brought forward why they cut it out of RotK).

I just meant he would still have a presence in the storyline, if a direct link between Azog's and Bolg's doings is established until then (which, I think, is one of the things hinted at via the Mordor theme during Thorin vs. Azog). He would not just drop out of the story as soon as DG is over. Actually, having DG and Bot5A apart from each other would even make it easier to underline that he is by no means defeated, but that he is already starting to spread Evil and that the attack on DG, overall, is rather fruitless - and even dangerous, because of gandalf's abscence from the North


It would help if I read the entire thread first before responding.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


Ardamírë
Valinor


Feb 4 2013, 3:20pm

Post #24 of 34 (353 views)
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That's what hasn't made sense to me either [In reply to] Can't Post

The fact that they backed off putting Sauron at the battle in ROTK, and yet now the are rumours of him being at the BoFA which makes even less sense.

There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).


Arannir
Valinor

Feb 4 2013, 4:17pm

Post #25 of 34 (352 views)
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General Problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Besides all the potential ways to handle the splitting of the movie - I guess this might remain one of the problems of the movies, no matter how you do it. Especially when it comes to critical reception.

If you have Smaug dead by the end of DoS people might yell "the enemy is gone, it should be over - there is not enough left and Jackson will indulge in one giant battle for the last film".

If he survives you will have "Again, nothing actually happened, the dragon is still flying around after another episodic movie".

But many might agree: The split was a mistake (especially those who already decided that it was a mistake after AUJ).


Of course, the better they manage to create great tension and story archs, the better the reception will be - especially of the fans and regular moviegoers. And also some critics might change their mind.


But - just in general - this will remain an issue the movies can be criticized for very easily - whether the final dramaturgy works or not.

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