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julia0925
Lindon
Feb 1 2013, 4:20pm
Post #1 of 17
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Musings on Dwarves
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Apologies if this has all been said and done before, I am still fairly new, and just wanted to put these out there. These are just some things I've been thinking about as I review AUJ in my mind while listening to the soundtrack.
a) Dwarves make pretty good guests. Yes, they're boisterous and given to food fights, but the next morning Bilbo's house was back in order. Other than the empty pantry, you couldn't even tell that there had been 13 rambunctious dwarves there the night before. And even the empty pantry was fairly considerate, since they assumed Bilbo would be coming with them. You wouldn't want to come home after a year of adventures to a pantry full of rotting food.
b) Dwarves should never fight solo. When Thror fought Azog, essentially by himself, he lost his head. When Thorin went to avenge him, again he was on his own, and first thing got knocked down. Later, when Thorin takes on Azog by himself, Azog simply lets his warg maul him, and Thorin almost loses his head. Just to make it not all about Thorin, Kili attempted to take on three huge trolls by himself and found himself with a face full of hobbit.
c) Dwarves should always fight together. The best scenario would be 2-3 dwarves per enemy, particularly if the enemy is much larger. When fighting the trolls, they did a fair amount of damage. The only way the trolls got them to stop was by threatening the hobbit. When fighting goblins, they were hopelessly outnumbered, but still managed to make a good accounting of themselves by working together.
Thanks for reading. Discuss at leisure.
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Lotr: You know it's been a bad day when even the elf is smudged.
TH: when the going gets tough, the tough call the eagles.
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cats16
Gondolin
Feb 1 2013, 4:32pm
Post #2 of 17
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I've been wondering for a few days now: why didn't Thorin just behead Azog at Azanulbizar after cutting off his arm?
He is shown simply standing across from Azog as the orc drops to his knees. This would seem, to me, like the proper moment to finish him off. We aren't really given a hint as to why this doesn't happen. I mean, Thorin does say that Azog died from his wounds after the battle, but why would he take that risk?
I don't have an answer, but I wonder if "The Bolg Situation", as I like to call it (Pulp Fiction anyone??), will attempt to resolve this in any form in DOS or even TABA.
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elevorn
Menegroth
Feb 1 2013, 4:37pm
Post #3 of 17
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A) That was very consderate of them in the movie, the book is a bit of a different story as Biblo cleans his house. The Movies Dwarves definitely do him a favor and leave everything tidy so all he has to do is walk out. I never thought about there being a rotten pantry when he got back, nice touch.
B) Indeed, its seems when they are together they are disciplined and fight in an order and rhythm, alone they seem to be a mess and get in bad situations. In Thorin's case, it may simply be that he is trying to match an opponent that has way too much reach on him in both cases, that and when you fight mad, you tend to make mistakes.
C) indeed together they are far more effective against larger enemies, they move better, understand the tactics. They are strong and hardy, but even Gimli learns that his size can be a disadvantage if you rush too boldly into something. Gotta fight smart.
"clever hobbits to climb so high!"
Check out my writing www.jdstudios.wordpress.com
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Rostron2
Mithlond
Feb 1 2013, 4:49pm
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A) Yes, they did clean up...in the movie. Plus they brought their own music! Could've been worse with those orc guests and their head-banger rock and roll, and tendency to eat their host.
B) Their history is of a machine like culture, fighting in formations even in the elder days, so yes, this all makes sense. Roman-style using multiples to take down big warriors.
C) They all used their skills in goblin town to good effect. The whole knocking goblins off the bridge with a pole was cool.
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Fishbug
Lindon
Feb 1 2013, 7:04pm
Post #5 of 17
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I've been wondering for a few days now: why didn't Thorin just behead Azog at Azanulbizar after cutting off his arm?
He is shown simply standing across from Azog as the orc drops to his knees. This would seem, to me, like the proper moment to finish him off. We aren't really given a hint as to why this doesn't happen. I mean, Thorin does say that Azog died from his wounds after the battle, but why would he take that risk?
I figure that's just an unfortunate relic from when Azog was Yazneg, ie: A guy in a suit. Thorin probably wounded him far worse than he did in the final movie, but maybe the CG Azog was too lifelike to be shown so jacked up.
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IdrilofGondolin
Nargothrond
Feb 1 2013, 9:16pm
Post #6 of 17
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Thanks, now I have to see AUJ again
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because I am pretty sure Thorin is fairly well knackered by the time he cuts off Azog's arm and didn't have the strength to finish him off. And that Azog's bodyguard were dragging him away. BUT I am not sure, so I'll have to go see the movie again and come back later with a full report.
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Gelir
Nevrast
Feb 1 2013, 10:22pm
Post #7 of 17
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I thought the same as cats16. I'm sure Thorin was exhausted, but he was on his feet and in a battle-ready position with his sword. Realistically, he probably would have ran at Azog and tried to finish him off. Then again, realistically, Azog wouldn't have stood there growling while Bilbo killed the orc who was about to behead Thorin. It was really quite polite of the other orcs to all stand around and wait their turn. :)
I think in both cases it was one of those things that get overlooked or disregarded for the sake of making it look more dramatic.
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Gelir
Nevrast
Feb 1 2013, 10:24pm
Post #8 of 17
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a) In addition to cleaning up after themselves, they make their own dinner. :)
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Rane
Nevrast
Feb 2 2013, 2:13am
Post #9 of 17
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And despite what they say they don't break the dishes
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Indigo55
Registered User
Feb 2 2013, 11:32pm
Post #10 of 17
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Gelir, I see your point about Azog complacently watching his soldier die...
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...but I also remember Azog's treatment of his underling who was unfortunate enough to be run off by the elves. Kinda zero tolerance. Azog seems the type to think, "If you're so lame that some teeny little joke of a hobbit can get the best of you, I'm not gonna help you!" He also seems to be a control freak, running things by intimidation...ain't nobody does nothin' in these situations unless he tells them to! 
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Mahtion
Ossiriand
Feb 3 2013, 5:46am
Post #11 of 17
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Dwarves are still rather disrespectful
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They still do and act without permission and have no sense of human or elven standards of manners. Bad enough that Kili wipes his dirty leather boots on Bilbo's mothers dowry box but the dwarves break apart and burn elvish furniture in Imladris. Unless of course they decided to carve new chairs for Elrond they obviously do not always leave everything tidy or untouched.
Though I have to admit the Dwarves are entertaining house guests and have a fine sense of rhythm and possess great reflexes and coordination. Oh and Dwalin ate Bilbo's dinner so they don't always prepare their own food, sometimes they steal it outright from their host without any sense of tact or social awareness. They clearly exhibit aspergers tendencies in their lack of social aptitude and emotional recognition. Either way dwarves are not subtle in the least and appear to disregard the concern or objections of others by way of blatant apathy or oblivious attention.
(This post was edited by Mahtion on Feb 3 2013, 5:53am)
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Kirly
Menegroth
Feb 3 2013, 6:02am
Post #12 of 17
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but i'll just say that Dwalin did not "steal" Bilbo's dinner. Dwalin had been told there would be "food" and "lot's of it". He asked where it was and Bilbo said not a single word that Dwalin wasn't welcome to the food that was already cooked and on the table.
and, dwarves are not Elves, or Hobbits, nor Humans. They have different standards of behaviour which are acceptable and which are not. I think what you've done there is judge the Dwarves by your own Human standards. Think about the belching... in Dwarven society, as far as you know, it might be downright rude to NOT belch after a dinner at someone else's home. It may be rude to NOT help clean up even if they do it in their own way.
My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!
pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#
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Old Toby
Hithlum
Feb 3 2013, 6:47am
Post #13 of 17
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Just had to say, I love your last sentence in A. LOL!!!!
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"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)
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Old Toby
Hithlum
Feb 3 2013, 7:04am
Post #14 of 17
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Yeah, they can make pretty good guests...when they want to. They cleaned up Bilbo's place just peachy, but I suspect the elves were less than thrilled with them. Then again, I'm sure they were less than thrilled with the elves too, so maybe they were less respectful on purpose. (It was all that green food that did it.)
I don't know if I'd say they should never fight solo. I think it has to do with who they are fighting. I'm sure they are pretty awesome fighters in their own right, watching how they handle themselves and their weapons. Azog and his warg were much larger than Thorin physically. It didn't surprise me at all that he was bulldozed by something akin to a charging rhinoceros! Heck, I give him credit for even going for it. And Kili, like any of the dwarves and Bilbo, was challenging something the size of a small condominium, when he went to Bilbo's rescue. The goblins, for the most part, are more their size, so they could manage things better, even though they were hopelessly outnumbered. (well, they had Gandalf, and he counts for a small army by himself!)
But I will say, the dwarves are AWESOME when they are fighting together. I particularly like how Dwalin is the unofficial Dwarf Stepping Stone! (As in, letting his head be used by Nori, I think it was, to get up into the tree, and while fighting the trolls doing that roll and ending up on his hands and knees so Thorin could use his back and do the wack-a-Troll thing)
"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)
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ryouko
Menegroth
Feb 3 2013, 1:49pm
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Love it!!
And, yes, it was Nori who used Dwalin's head. GM himself confirmed it.
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julia0925
Lindon
Feb 4 2013, 7:22pm
Post #16 of 17
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Lotr: You know it's been a bad day when even the elf is smudged.
TH: when the going gets tough, the tough call the eagles.
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julia0925
Lindon
Feb 4 2013, 7:29pm
Post #17 of 17
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Obviously Thorin has never learned that if you want to make sure your enemy is dead, do it yourself. And cut of his head when given the chance.
Azog seemed to me to be very changeable. One minute he wanted to cut Thorin's head off himself, the next he wanted his minion to do it. I'm sure he'd be given to monologueing as well, given the chance. Perhaps not as bad as the Goblin King, but the Goblin King was playing to an audience.
all in all, good points.
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Lotr: You know it's been a bad day when even the elf is smudged.
TH: when the going gets tough, the tough call the eagles.
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Whack-A-Troll
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