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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
"Arson, Murder and Life-saving" -- Thorin's cliched speech
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arithmancer
Grey Havens

Jan 30 2013, 3:57pm

Post #26 of 60 (421 views)
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Bilbo's choice [In reply to] Can't Post

I think having Bilbo and Thorin shown as having an improved personal relationship will enhance, rather than detract from, Film 3 and Bilbo's choice to oppose Thorin. Because having Bilbo decide to act in this instance where we might see it as acting against someone he has no reason to like anyway, cheapens what is (in my mind) a rather disinterested and moral choice. I'd find it more interesting if Bilbo likes Thorin, can see where he is coming from on the matter (up to a point) but thinks he is in the wrong.

So I don't think we will be given reasons for his action that come primarily from personal issues he and Thorin still have. I think it will come from Bilbo's coming to understand that on the topics of the Elves and the Arkenstone, Thorin is not being rational. Bilbo's apparent fondness for Rivendell in AUJ, for example, would already give him a basis to have a different view of Elrond and Elves more generally than Thorin has. In the second movie, there may be more of Bilbo interacting with (or observing) the Mirkwood Elves and the Men of Laketown, in which he develops favorable, or at least unprejudiced, opinions of them. Especially on the Mirkwood Elves, we are also likely to see Thorin's views on Elves hardening. (His experiences will of course be different from Bilbo's, as he will wind up a captive of the Elves).

In summary, like you I loved the interactions of Movie! Thorin and Bilbo. But to me how this was presented, especially including this scene, gave me a lot of hope that the big drama of their conflict in Movie 3 and its tragic end, will be done justice. (I'm packing my pocket handkerchief for Movie 3!)


mefansmum
Rivendell

Jan 30 2013, 4:09pm

Post #27 of 60 (428 views)
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2D and 3D [In reply to] Can't Post

This was one of the things that worked better in 3DHFR for me and I don't know why.

It felt more natural somehow. Whether it was because the HFR process generally sucked me into the movie more or because the picture is clearer and you detect more nuances, I don't know.


imin
Valinor


Jan 30 2013, 4:22pm

Post #28 of 60 (403 views)
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Did you view it first in 3D HFR? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 30 2013, 7:36pm

Post #29 of 60 (390 views)
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We don't manage our discussions that way. [In reply to] Can't Post

People are welcome to discuss, and discuss, and discuss something as long as it's not already on the page and stays within our Terms of Service. As a veteran here, you play a big role in helping newer members feel welcome. Telling anyone to "move on" is not very welcoming.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 30 2013, 8:14pm

Post #30 of 60 (348 views)
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Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Just came in from another view. Paid special attention to the scene today because of the discussion!

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 30 2013, 8:30pm

Post #31 of 60 (339 views)
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Thanks to O.P. [In reply to] Can't Post

Above thank you for Sulime!

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


hutch
Rohan


Jan 30 2013, 9:09pm

Post #32 of 60 (329 views)
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It actually fooled me. [In reply to] Can't Post

Because I know Bilbo doesn't get respected until later. So I was caught off guard. It actually worked for me, despite the fact that Thorin isn't really working for me and I don't like cliches.

PJ doesn't scribble all over the Mona Lisa. He may stumble and accidentally nick the portrait with some pens marks-but scribbling over? That's a bit too far.

Davy Jones could've been Bilbo...I mean he was a Brit with a sense for adventure, singing & dancing. And think of the costs it would've save with forced perspective: he was ACTUALLY 5'3. He also hung out with a grumpy tall dude in a hat (Mike Nesmith.) While we're at it let's just have Micky Dolenz and Peter Tork as Merry & Pippin.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 30 2013, 10:04pm

Post #33 of 60 (355 views)
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RA is more than capable of much more subtlety [In reply to] Can't Post

Thorin is the negation of subtlety. The lines reference Gimli's admonishment of Aragorn when he showed up alive but late at Helm's Deep. I think they are fine after all Dwarves, Dragons and Wizards are all stereotypical characters from a myriad of cliche fairy stories.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 30 2013, 10:22pm

Post #34 of 60 (320 views)
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That rates a "mod-up"! [In reply to] Can't Post

Very insightful.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Rostron2
Gondor


Jan 30 2013, 10:29pm

Post #35 of 60 (299 views)
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Understood // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Yva
Rivendell


Jan 30 2013, 11:40pm

Post #36 of 60 (321 views)
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"Thorin is the negation of subtlety" [In reply to] Can't Post

But he shouldn't have to be. In fact I'm not sure he is. And... I should hope he won't be, although there are likely some crazy things in store, given his character develoment (but again I'm hoping he will be more subtle about it than not).

I noticed an interesting contrast between Bilbo and Thorin in the scenes where they're interacting but not only in those. Martin tends to have some loud body language at times, using lots of gestures and awesome face expressions, which seem subtle yet at the same time noticeable, while Thorin is simply just... there. Yes, PJ has him perform some majetic poses, intense stares and hair tossing, but minus those, he is kind of just there on the screen, being Thorin, and being very effortless about it. Now, I don't know anything about acting, I'm just giving my impressions (and not comparing the two in terms of quality).

I like pathos where appropriate, but I also like it balanced out with more, ehm, for the lack of a good synonym, subtle moments. Regardless of fairy stories stereotypes.

I'm also not sure if you're being serious or ironic or something else entirely, so sorry if I misunderstood your intent... maybe I need subtitles ;)


In Reply To
Thorin is the negation of subtlety. The lines reference Gimli's admonishment of Aragorn when he showed up alive but late at Helm's Deep. I think they are fine after all Dwarves, Dragons and Wizards are all stereotypical characters from a myriad of cliche fairy stories.



Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 31 2013, 12:52am

Post #37 of 60 (266 views)
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Much appreciated Kangi Ska [In reply to] Can't Post

 

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.


Gelir
Bree

Jan 31 2013, 1:22am

Post #38 of 60 (254 views)
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Great post! [In reply to] Can't Post

I both agree with your post, and feel that the scene was a cliche. :)

When I first saw it, I was moved by it while at the same time thinking "really? Does anyone not know that the feel good part is coming?"

But it didn't bother me in the end. I think your post is very well said.

While I think it was cliche in the sense that we've all seen the same type scene in other movies, I don't think it's unrealistic. Most cliches are probably rooted in real human behavior. When you've just been through something like what Thorin experienced, there are so many emotions. People handle things differently too. Some people might simply say "thank you for saving my life," and others might be at a loss for how to express all of those emotions. They channel it into anger because that's probably the emotion that's easiest to deal with first, and maybe it buys them some time to get themselves under control.


Gelir
Bree

Jan 31 2013, 1:39am

Post #39 of 60 (262 views)
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The right thing [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I kinda like the step-by-step growth of Bilbo's character, where we see him going from a homebody to finally going to confront the dragon and braving Thorin's wrath in stealing the Arkenstone to do the right thing.


So do I - Bilbo had quite an evolution in the book, and it's looking pretty good on the screen so far as well.

I know this is a completely different topic, but I never thought Bilbo stealing the Arkenstone was the right thing to do.

I never held it against Bilbo - I always felt that he *thought* he was doing the right thing. I just didn't think it actually was the right thing. His intentions were good - at least, they were good when he gave the Arkenstone to Bard to try to prevent a war. (But why didn't he just offer his 14th share to Bard in the first place and leave the Arkenstone out of it?)

His intentions weren't as good when he found the Arkenstone and didn't tell Thorin about it - at that time there was no pending war and no reason for him to keep it, other than being enchanted by it. But even so I didn't hold that against him either; I just thought he did the wrong thing there.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 31 2013, 2:08am

Post #40 of 60 (254 views)
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I would clarify? [In reply to] Can't Post

by saying that I was speaking about J.R.R. Tolkien's Thorin Oakenshield and not necessarily Peter Jackson's version of the character thoughI think that Thorin must be larger than life. He is a Dwarf and the rightful King of Durin's people.

I was trying to point out that dealing with archetypical might necessarily lead to behavior that might be considered cliche by some. I thought Thorin's behavior was natural in the situation and most natural behavior could be considered cliche if you do not think too hard about it. As a good captain he admonished Bilbo for risking his own life then he thanked him like a good German would: the meaning being held till the end.

"Through the cow over the fence some hay."

Sub-titles might be easier. Would you like to see some shadow puppets. KS

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Jan 31 2013, 2:12am)


bborchar
Rohan


Jan 31 2013, 2:12am

Post #41 of 60 (260 views)
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I agree with you about Bilbo and the Arkenstone... [In reply to] Can't Post

...Bilbo definitely screws it up, but for some reason, they treat him as if he were the wisest of them all. I also thought the same as you about giving them his share of the gold...it would have made more sense.


glor
Rohan

Jan 31 2013, 2:42am

Post #42 of 60 (241 views)
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Like a Captain [In reply to] Can't Post

It felt to me like a military commander, scolding one of his men for risking their life to save someone else and then thanking him. It's a cliche I suppose of almost every war movie, the errant unwanted 'useless' soldier, that saves the day and then gets treated as an equal by the captain and his regiment.

It didn't need the hug though, a firm hand on the shoulder would have been enough.

To me it's not the lines or delivery, it's that hug that turns it from what could have been a great moment, into something a little corny, although not unpleasantly so.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 31 2013, 2:54am

Post #43 of 60 (239 views)
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There are those who hug [In reply to] Can't Post

and those who tremble at the thought

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Súlimë
Rivendell


Jan 31 2013, 3:30am

Post #44 of 60 (227 views)
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Thank you [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile


Súlimë
Rivendell


Jan 31 2013, 4:16am

Post #45 of 60 (215 views)
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That's interesting! [In reply to] Can't Post

I've rewatched the scene and found that the line can really be interpreted in a different way (that is, 'repeating the words he was wrong about' rather than 'scolding Bilbo') And it makes more sense to interpret it that way. I think it's the music that's a little misleading -- because right up to the point just before "I've never been so wrong", the music is more to the 'drama and conflict' side rather than just neutral.

Now I feel I need to go read The Hobbit again to see how exactly the book Thorin admits to his mistakes. Thanks for sharing!


Arandiel
Grey Havens

Jan 31 2013, 5:42am

Post #46 of 60 (228 views)
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I took this speech as [In reply to] Can't Post

Thorin berating himself, reviewing his own bad attitude toward Bilbo up to that point and then showing how he's had to revise that opinion. It works for me. As others on this thread have also said. But I wonder if this will end up (two movies hence) being the end of the evolution of Thorin and Bilbo's relationship, or if they'll go back and forth - Thorin doubting or blaming Bilbo again, having to make amends... Certainly, Bilbo's big 'betrayal' of Thorin (in Thorin's eyes) has yet to occur, if the movies follow the book on that point. And, given the dramatic tension surrounding Bilbo's 'defection' at the Lonely Mountain, I can't imagine Peter Jackson & Company skipping that plot point. Who knows?


Walk to Rivendell: There and Back Again Challenge - traveling through Middle Earth with thirteen rowdy Dwarves, one grumpy Wizard, and a beleaguered Hobbit

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swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Jan 31 2013, 7:04am

Post #47 of 60 (213 views)
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useful insights! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Have been reading lots of posts about this shot. I don't feel it is cliche. I think it shows the real-time evolution of Thorin's thoughts...

"What were you doing...?" The perfectly legitimate question of a very experienced leader to a companion choosing to face a foe far beyond his strength. I can hear him saying the same to Kili or Fili in similar circumstances, perhaps with some profanity scattered about (after all they are family). In addition whenThorin rises after being knocked out time has stopped for him, and the anger and shame of losing to Azog must be very present and terrible for him.
"...you nearly got yourself killed!" Well he did.
"Did I not say you would be a burden..." The next thought is Bilbo would have been dead and Thorin recognizes that that death would be a burden of guilt for the Company and very particularly for him, especially since the immediate event requiring Thorin to be saved was of Thorin's own choice.
"...and that you would not survive..." But Bilbo did survive....and because of that so doea Thorin. That is where the final thought evolves...
'I have never been so wrong..." and at that point Bilbo has crossed the gulf and earned some trust. Dwarves feel intensely, trust sparingly. Earning an embrace is like a rite of passage and it is a perfect fit.

I don't think Thorin stood up with the entire interaction already in mind, with the contrasting idreas fully formed. Its an internal, sequential journey.

In short I wouldn't change it at all. Dwarves aren't Elves: they aren't timeless, perfect, elegant. Which is wonderful.


Go outside and play...


Súlimë
Rivendell


Jan 31 2013, 7:43am

Post #48 of 60 (195 views)
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Awww [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Not so secretly went Aaaaaw.

Awwwww Smile

I have to admit I was thinking "This is a cliche but it's going to get me!" Tongue

But with a different interpretation as you and some other posters have pointed out (Thorin isn't scolding Bilbo), it might not even be a cliche...

I need to see the whole movie again!


Súlimë
Rivendell


Jan 31 2013, 7:50am

Post #49 of 60 (192 views)
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That's interesting [In reply to] Can't Post

Because I found 2D and HFR 3D totally different as well (with HFR 3D being far superior in... everything) I haven't seen both versions enough times to really understand where the difference is, but I'm glad you felt the same way.


Súlimë
Rivendell


Jan 31 2013, 7:51am

Post #50 of 60 (192 views)
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Maybe... but... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
My first thought was whether is maybe was a bit too soon with Thorin softening up to Bilbo so soon, but then again he's stubborn enough too go back to grumpy Thorin again soon enough.

I really hope Thorin doesn't go back to being grumpy in the next movie. Otherwise the whole scene would be for nothing. Maybe they will develop the relationship from that point and make it so that Thorin trusts Bilbo immensely, adding even more drama to their conflict in the last movie.

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