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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
"Arson, Murder and Life-saving" -- Thorin's cliched speech
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Súlimë
Rivendell


Jan 30 2013, 10:11am

Post #1 of 60 (1802 views)
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"Arson, Murder and Life-saving" -- Thorin's cliched speech Can't Post

Sorry if this topic has been discussed in detail before. I know there are discussions about this in recent "I have never been so wrong!" thread, but since that deviates from the OP's original intent, I thought it might be a good idea to continue the discussion here. There are some very interesting opinions in that thread, so please feel free to repost your comments!

The subject title came from the tvtropes site, where they catalogue all kinds of 'cliches'. More info here: http://tvtropes.org/...nMurderAndLifeSaving

So in a way, yes, Thorin's speech is cliched. The hug is cliched. But... cliches have their places. People obviously love them, so that's why they keep being used. And sometimes cliches work.

So, here are some questions about the beratement-to-gratitude-to-hug scene between Thorin and Bilbo at the end of AUJ:

1. Did the scene work for you? Did you roll your eyes, or cringe, or did you secretly go 'awww'?

2. If you did not like it, how would you improve it? Feel free to rewrite Thorin's line to make it work better for you. (You are not allowed to change any other part of the story, which means Thorin just fought Azog, etc.)

Keep it fun and positive please Smile


Here's my take:
1. I think it could have been better, but it served its purpose well enough. There had to be some sort of an emotional close for the first movie, and the scene did that. The hug was almost necessary. I didn't like the speech too much, but I liked the hug. Anything else would have been too weak. (After all, it's a kid's movie -- so hugs are mandatory Tongue)

2. For me, maybe I would have been fine with something a bit subtler. Thorin could look at Bilbo, and an understanding look could pass between them. And there was no real need to set it up as a beratement in the first place. He could start with "I thought you would be a burden..."

HOWEVER, this is entirely because I feel that Bilbo did not really do anything to merit such scolding from Thorin. The trolls? That was more Fili's and Kili's fault. Yes, Bilbo got caught and they were forced to lay down their arms, but to think it was entirely his fault was a bit unfair, no? Warg chase? Not Bilbo's fault. Goblin Town? Again, not Bilbo's fault. He had done nothing to cause them trouble apart from slipping during the Stone Giants scene. If in the EE we see more of Bilbo falling behind, unable to keep up, or unable to defend himself, Thorin's end speech would be a lot more believable.

Then again, I know people in real life who would list your shortcomings first before saying nice things about you. Really. (Plus, Mr. Darcy did it when he was trying to propose, so there's a long tradition there) Tongue

In short: I don't really mind the scene as it is, and I thought it was pretty sweet of Thorin to openly admit he was wrong. Cliches work better in children's stories -- and that's what The Hobbit is for me. I felt the story needed that emotional closure, and by setting it up as a conflict first, it just makes the hug a bit more powerful.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 30 2013, 10:41am

Post #2 of 60 (828 views)
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I do not see a need to repeat this topic now. [In reply to] Can't Post

Your comments could have been added to the existing thread. It is still on the front page.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Súlimë
Rivendell


Jan 30 2013, 10:46am

Post #3 of 60 (784 views)
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Sorry... [In reply to] Can't Post

On another forum that I am on it's a no-no to post 'off-topic' posts in an existing thread (because it's seen as 'derailing' the original OP)

Feel free to lock/delete this thread if you'd like me to post there instead Smile


jtarkey
Rohan


Jan 30 2013, 10:46am

Post #4 of 60 (773 views)
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I agree with your thoughts... [In reply to] Can't Post

Bilbo was never really shown to be a burden. He helped with the trolls...that was about it. Besides that, he really doesn't do anything for the dwarves, or against them. He's just there. This is one of my biggest gripes about the film.

This is why the scene with Bilbo saving Thorin felt tacked on. He never did much wrong in the first place, so saving Thorin seems like a rather unnecessary sacrifice. Thorin was failing through the whole film anyways.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 30 2013, 11:17am

Post #5 of 60 (765 views)
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It is not a repeat. [In reply to] Can't Post

The other thread's topic is us and our own "never been so wrong"; this one is about a moment in the Movie.

So I do believe it's fine on its' own. Smile


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






Yva
Rivendell


Jan 30 2013, 11:34am

Post #6 of 60 (781 views)
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Aww I just replied to the "Never been so wrong" thread :) [In reply to] Can't Post

But I'll repost here, hope it's ok. This is a reaction to someone quoting RA who explained that this was a pick up scene added after the decision to split the movie into 3 had been made.


I did in fact suspect the scene was added after the decision to make 3 movies had been made, as an emotional conclusion to AUJ, and I find it worrying that the quote from RA more or less confirms it. (yes I know he's talking about catching sight of Erebor in the distance, but it's possible the hug was added later too)

Unlike many others here, I don't have a problem with the angry first-hug next issue. I see it as Thorin being angry at himself, having an extremely difficult time overcoming his pride and acknowledging his mistake in front of *everyone*, including the whole gang but also Gandalf. I admit it could have been done differently, I'm sure RA is more than capable of much more subtlety, if only he had been asked to use it. But oh well, it works for me, charater-wise... provided it's part of a well-reasoned arc, but the quote from RA suggests that it might in fact not be the case.

My issue is that the scene is a very important character moment that significantly changes and shapes the Thorin/Bilbo dynamics - and it worries me if it was only added as an afterthought. I would have liked to think that PJ and PB had it planned from the very beginning, that they had the Bilbo/Thorin dynamics all thought out and figured out and that the split into 3 movies could not alter the character arcs and the way the key relationships play out.

I find it all the more worrying because characters and character relationships is what AUJ excels at, so far, in my opinion. Oh well I hope I'm wrong and the reconciliation moment had been planned from the start and was to occur at this point of the movie regardless of the split.



(This post was edited by Yva on Jan 30 2013, 11:36am)


bborchar
Rohan


Jan 30 2013, 12:38pm

Post #7 of 60 (707 views)
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Whenever it was added... [In reply to] Can't Post

...has nothing to do with how "legitimate" of a scene it is. Besides being an assumption (we don't know exactly what the pickup was), everyone is acting as if these scripts were set in stone, and that this ending was completely fabricated at the last minute and therefore doesn't belong in the movie. It's just a way to show that the dynamic between these two characters had changed. It was the overarching problem throughout the film, and it had to happen. Whether people find it cliched (I personally don't) is a personal problem. I also don't think it was as hastily added as people think- they shot the scenes with the wargs and trees earlier (I remember from the production videos). I've also noticed that Thorin still shows injuries in Beorn's house (cuts and bruises on his face) as well as after (he has a black eye in a shot of the company before they enter Mirkwood)...it was definitely in the script for a while that he was going to get hurt in that fight, and that Bilbo was going to save him. It was the perfect opportunity to do so, and had to happen for character growth.


stoutfiles
Rohan


Jan 30 2013, 1:14pm

Post #8 of 60 (704 views)
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Not so good [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Did the scene work for you? Did you roll your eyes, or cringe, or did you secretly go 'awww'?

It was silly. It works in some movies like Mulan, but this just felt so forced here. It wasn't worse than Thorin walking through the fire in slow-motion with "epic" music though, that completely destroyed the scene.

2. If you did not like it, how would you improve it? Feel free to rewrite Thorin's line to make it work better for you. (You are not allowed to change any other part of the story, which means Thorin just fought Azog, etc.)

I would rewrite the previous scene and Bilbo would not save Thorin at all. He didn't in the book, so why should he in the movie? Thorin is not supposed to respect Bilbo until the barrel scene, and even then it's not much respect.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 30 2013, 1:18pm

Post #9 of 60 (729 views)
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Speech validity [In reply to] Can't Post

Have been reading lots of posts about this shot. I don't feel it is cliche. I think it shows the real-time evolution of Thorin's thoughts...

"What were you doing...?" The perfectly legitimate question of a very experienced leader to a companion choosing to face a foe far beyond his strength. I can hear him saying the same to Kili or Fili in similar circumstances, perhaps with some profanity scattered about (after all they are family). In addition whenThorin rises after being knocked out time has stopped for him, and the anger and shame of losing to Azog must be very present and terrible for him.
"...you nearly got yourself killed!" Well he did.
"Did I not say you would be a burden..." The next thought is Bilbo would have been dead and Thorin recognizes that that death would be a burden of guilt for the Company and very particularly for him, especially since the immediate event requiring Thorin to be saved was of Thorin's own choice.
"...and that you would not survive..." But Bilbo did survive....and because of that so doea Thorin. That is where the final thought evolves...
'I have never been so wrong..." and at that point Bilbo has crossed the gulf and earned some trust. Dwarves feel intensely, trust sparingly. Earning an embrace is like a rite of passage and it is a perfect fit.

I don't think Thorin stood up with the entire interaction already in mind, with the contrasting idreas fully formed. Its an internal, sequential journey.

In short I wouldn't change it at all. Dwarves aren't Elves: they aren't timeless, perfect, elegant. Which is wonderful.

...she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons.

(This post was edited by Brethil on Jan 30 2013, 1:26pm)


arithmancer
Grey Havens

Jan 30 2013, 1:25pm

Post #10 of 60 (695 views)
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Loved the scene, especially Thorin's speech. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
1. Did the scene work for you? Did you roll your eyes, or cringe, or did you secretly go 'awww'?


Not so secretly went Aaaaaw.


In Reply To
2. If you did not like it, how would you improve it? Feel free to rewrite Thorin's line to make it work better for you. (You are not allowed to change any other part of the story, which means Thorin just fought Azog, etc.)


Personally I did not need the hug, but I do not object to it in any way.


In Reply To
HOWEVER, this is entirely because I feel that Bilbo did not really do anything to merit such scolding from Thorin.


This is why I loved Thorin's speech. Aside from the first thing he said (“You! What were you doing? You nearly got yourself killed! ") Thorin wasn't scolding Bilbo. He was, as I see it, taking back the things he had said to/about Bilbo, (unjustly, as you point out) in earlier scenes of the movie. And he was apologizing for having said them in the past. "Did I not say that you would be a burden? That you would not survive in the wild and that you had no place amongst us? I’ve never been so wrong in all my life! I am sorry I doubted you.”


arithmancer
Grey Havens

Jan 30 2013, 1:42pm

Post #11 of 60 (687 views)
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Scene is integral to the script [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I did in fact suspect the scene was added after the decision to make 3 movies had been made, as an emotional conclusion to AUJ, and I find it worrying that the quote from RA more or less confirms it. (yes I know he's talking about catching sight of Erebor in the distance, but it's possible the hug was added later too).

My issue is that the scene is a very important character moment that significantly changes and shapes the Thorin/Bilbo dynamics - and it worries me if it was only added as an afterthought. I would have liked to think that PJ and PB had it planned from the very beginning, that they had the Bilbo/Thorin dynamics all thought out and figured out and that the split into 3 movies could not alter the character arcs and the way the key relationships play out .


I agree that this scene with exactly the dialogue used and with the hug, could have been added after the decision to make 3 movies. But it does not follow that it was hastily written and its importance to the development of Thorin and Bilbo in the films not fully considered. Given what else we have seen out of Thorin in the first film a scene like this had to exist in the two-movie version as well. Not necessarily these words, not necessarily these actions, and not necessarily in this location. However, some scene with the same meaning - that Thorin recognizes he has been unfair to Bilbo, and that he recognizes that Bilbo has been of great service to him/the quest, was needed.

The scene had been brewing since Bag End. (He looks more like a grocer than a burglar...) Thorin expresses displeasure at Bilbo after the Troll scene. He seems to expect Bilbo will not keep up with the others as they go into the Misty Mountains. He is quite unfair and hurtful to Bilbo after the Stone Giants scene. He misjudges Bilbo in his speech to the Dwarves when Bilbo is seen to be missing in the Misty Mountains scene. I don't think all these were added after the decision to move to three films. And the scene of the Carrock in AUJ is set up by all of these moments.

The scene may advance the point, geographically, at which this moment happened compared to their original plans, but it was I think always a point they intended these characters to reach.


Súlimë
Rivendell


Jan 30 2013, 2:02pm

Post #12 of 60 (656 views)
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I think it was planned [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I find it all the more worrying because characters and character relationships is what AUJ excels at, so far, in my opinion. Oh well I hope I'm wrong and the reconciliation moment had been planned from the start and was to occur at this point of the movie regardless of the split.


Thanks for reposting! I think someone pointed out in the other thread that RA's description of the scene in question is actually a different scene -- meaning that the speech was not 'hastily written in' to conclude the first movie.

I totally agree that the character moment is important. Otherwise the company would not have achieved anything at all (apart from being a bit closer to their destination and, well, surviving so far) in the first movie. With this end scene, they have come to an understanding and Bilbo is now 'officially' part of the company.


(This post was edited by Súlimë on Jan 30 2013, 2:08pm)


Súlimë
Rivendell


Jan 30 2013, 2:08pm

Post #13 of 60 (663 views)
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Awww [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
2. If you did not like it, how would you improve it? Feel free to rewrite Thorin's line to make it work better for you. (You are not allowed to change any other part of the story, which means Thorin just fought Azog, etc.)

I would rewrite the previous scene and Bilbo would not save Thorin at all. He didn't in the book, so why should he in the movie? Thorin is not supposed to respect Bilbo until the barrel scene, and even then it's not much respect.


Aw, come on! You didn't play by the rules! Laugh

Anyway, I don't think it's necessarily bad to have Thorin accept Bilbo by the end of the first movie. I think when Bilbo finally saves the dwarves from the spiders, he will 'prove himself' even further.

I kinda like the step-by-step growth of Bilbo's character, where we see him going from a homebody to finally going to confront the dragon and braving Thorin's wrath in stealing the Arkenstone to do the right thing.


Yva
Rivendell


Jan 30 2013, 2:12pm

Post #14 of 60 (643 views)
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I don't wish to derail the thread too much [In reply to] Can't Post

with discussions on when were certain scenes added because indeed, I don't know for sure. But wasn't, for example, the whole Azog subplot added later, too?

I think it's a valid question to ask (well, from my perpective), and by asking it, I'm not diminishing anything that actually happens on the screen. Bilbo/Thorin dynamics as portrayed in the movie is significantly different from the book. And let me say that I love what the writers did with them, not just separately, but also in terms of their relationship. I find the Bilbo/Thorin/Gandalf dynamics very exciting to watch and cannot wait to see where it goes next. But because it's new, and goes hand in hand with the changes to Thorin's and Bilbo's character, it's important for me to know that the writers have good a plan. Frankly, I'm sure they do. But having Thorin hug Bilbo is... simply very much different from what we would expect from the book!Thorin, so much so that it makes me stop and wonder.


Súlimë
Rivendell


Jan 30 2013, 2:17pm

Post #15 of 60 (648 views)
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Good point! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I don't think Thorin stood up with the entire interaction already in mind, with the contrasting idreas fully formed. Its an internal, sequential journey.


I've never thought of it that way before, but I guess it makes sense! I keep forgetting that, unlike the audience, Thorin just woke up, and maybe he was still processing what had happened.

Thanks for posting! Now I'm going with this interpretation. I have no problem at all if the speech was impromptu Smile


Esmeralda
Bree


Jan 30 2013, 2:17pm

Post #16 of 60 (684 views)
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If I remember RAs comment [In reply to] Can't Post

correctly, I believe he said that a similar scene had already been filmed that would have occurred later in the movie. So it was always in the script, PJ just made it happen sooner to cap off the first movie.

I acknowledge that the scene was a little hammy. Even the music gets grim for a few notes. But heck, I didn't care. They still got me. It's beautifully filmed, and the actors pile on the emotion, and even after nearly three hours, I didn't want it to end. I just wanted them to keep going straight on to the mountain.

It was also a lovely scene for the actors to end on. Apparently they all went in to hug Martin. So yeah, it's always going to get a sniffle from me :).

(This post was edited by Esmeralda on Jan 30 2013, 2:18pm)


bborchar
Rohan


Jan 30 2013, 2:28pm

Post #17 of 60 (633 views)
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This is a good point... [In reply to] Can't Post

...the guy almost died, just woke up and the first thing on his mind is whether or not Bilbo is dead. I'm sure the emotions took over from there :)


Yva
Rivendell


Jan 30 2013, 2:37pm

Post #18 of 60 (617 views)
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I guess you're right [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The scene had been brewing since Bag End. (He looks more like a grocer than a burglar...) Thorin expresses displeasure at Bilbo after the Troll scene. He seems to expect Bilbo will not keep up with the others as they go into the Misty Mountains. He is quite unfair and hurtful to Bilbo after the Stone Giants scene. He misjudges Bilbo in his speech to the Dwarves when Bilbo is seen to be missing in the Misty Mountains scene. I don't think all these were added after the decision to move to three films. And the scene of the Carrock in AUJ is set up by all of these moments.

The scene may advance the point, geographically, at which this moment happened compared to their original plans, but it was I think always a point they intended these characters to reach.


I generally agree with you. Maybe I'm just looking too far ahead and asking what will they do to make Thorin's going completely nuts and his and Bilbo's inevitable falling out believable. Maybe my entire problem is I would have preferred a more subtle scene and I worry the brotherly hug was added for a dramatic effect to make the end of AUJ more impactful.

I wouldn't be having these concerns if I didn't love movie!Thorin's character - I do, so much so that I want his and Bilbo's arc to be as believable and awesome as possible :)

But I'm repeating myself now and also going off topic, sorry.


imin
Valinor


Jan 30 2013, 2:54pm

Post #19 of 60 (614 views)
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I should never have replied to the post in the other thread, haha [In reply to] Can't Post

Look what has happened :P

For me i can see why they did it, just i felt it could have been done in a much better way and felt kinda sorry for the actors to have to say the lines.

It was cliched and made me roll my eyes but as i also said in the other thread, cliches are cliches as they work most of the time on most people.

For me it was too obvious and clunky, i wouldnt have even minded him saying it the way he does, so long as his little speech was reduced in length so as to make it less theatrical and over the top, i just dont think Thorin would say it like that. When someone has lots of pride they dont make a big thing out of how wrong they were. For me someone whose character would work well in this scene would be Eomer/Karl Urban from lotr. He seemed to have pride and there was a little look he gave aragorn which showed he did and didnt really want to admit aragorn was as good as he was but did anyway.

This has nothing to do with thorin and bilbo scene it just shows it can be done in a more subtle manner which is in keeping with the people in my opinion.

It doesnt mean i just want him to be like 'oh cheers mate, your the best.' But i think one can say thank you but still show its hard for you to say it due to pride without resorting to shouting and making a long speech with a cheesy hug to gap it off.

It is alright and could have been way better but it just adds to the already cliched action scene where the trees fall onto each other and eventually over a cliff, its like seriously!

Like SA used to say - PJ, he paints a Mona Lisa then scribbles all over it in pen!


Loresilme
Valinor


Jan 30 2013, 2:56pm

Post #20 of 60 (619 views)
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I don't agree, I think it's a separate topic and [In reply to] Can't Post

btw, I was going to post a new thread on it myself Sly.


bborchar
Rohan


Jan 30 2013, 3:01pm

Post #21 of 60 (600 views)
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If anything... [In reply to] Can't Post

It will make the Thorin's decline and his treatment of Bilbo MORE impactful. We can see how much he trusts Bilbo now, and when Bilbo gives the Arkenstone to the "enemy" (in his mind), he will feel even more betrayed. I think this scene added a depth to his character that wasn't there before...he's not just a stoney, would-be king who only cares about reclaiming his kingdom, he has a "soft" side (for lack of a better word) that doesn't come out very often, but it's there. I think this will make his downfall even more heartbreaking, because even though he's stubborn, he's not completely unreasonable...and he will become so with the dragon sickness.


Yva
Rivendell


Jan 30 2013, 3:27pm

Post #22 of 60 (574 views)
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I was rather referring [In reply to] Can't Post

to what will make Bilbo decide against Thorin in the first place. Otherwise you're completely right.


Loresilme
Valinor


Jan 30 2013, 3:34pm

Post #23 of 60 (575 views)
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I liked it too, but also wanted to share [In reply to] Can't Post

It sounded to me like the phrasing was purposely chosen by the scriptwriters so as to recall the words from the book:

"I would take back my words and deeds at the Gate." -- (The Hobbit, Chapter 18)

The phrasing of "Did I not say..." and then repeating all of his words and then saying he was completely wrong about all of them, is in essence saying, "I would take back my words."

For me, I thought the way this scene was done was in keeping with Thorin's character, and very moving - words, hug and all.

Thanks for posting this topic, Súlimë, even if we might not agree on it :-). It is good to have another chance for people to share their thoughts on this very important scene.


CathrineB
Rohan


Jan 30 2013, 3:34pm

Post #24 of 60 (577 views)
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Too soon perhaps? [In reply to] Can't Post

My first thought was whether is maybe was a bit too soon with Thorin softening up to Bilbo so soon, but then again he's stubborn enough too go back to grumpy Thorin again soon enough.

I personally thought the moment was sweet. The music swelling and all the feels jumped right off the Carrock. I think it was sweet. Could've been better I suppose on Thorin's behalf, but the whole theater was like "Oh come on Thorin! Bilbo's saved you so many times now!" so he hasn't really been a burden, nobody carries him around and he's saving them more than once.


Rostron2
Gondor


Jan 30 2013, 3:39pm

Post #25 of 60 (590 views)
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Move on this topic has been beat to death [In reply to] Can't Post

and it's not going to change anything

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