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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
"Arson, Murder and Life-saving" -- Thorin's cliched speech

Súlimë
Rivendell


Jan 30 2013, 10:11am


Views: 1735
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"Arson, Murder and Life-saving" -- Thorin's cliched speech Can't Post

Sorry if this topic has been discussed in detail before. I know there are discussions about this in recent "I have never been so wrong!" thread, but since that deviates from the OP's original intent, I thought it might be a good idea to continue the discussion here. There are some very interesting opinions in that thread, so please feel free to repost your comments!

The subject title came from the tvtropes site, where they catalogue all kinds of 'cliches'. More info here: http://tvtropes.org/...nMurderAndLifeSaving

So in a way, yes, Thorin's speech is cliched. The hug is cliched. But... cliches have their places. People obviously love them, so that's why they keep being used. And sometimes cliches work.

So, here are some questions about the beratement-to-gratitude-to-hug scene between Thorin and Bilbo at the end of AUJ:

1. Did the scene work for you? Did you roll your eyes, or cringe, or did you secretly go 'awww'?

2. If you did not like it, how would you improve it? Feel free to rewrite Thorin's line to make it work better for you. (You are not allowed to change any other part of the story, which means Thorin just fought Azog, etc.)

Keep it fun and positive please Smile


Here's my take:
1. I think it could have been better, but it served its purpose well enough. There had to be some sort of an emotional close for the first movie, and the scene did that. The hug was almost necessary. I didn't like the speech too much, but I liked the hug. Anything else would have been too weak. (After all, it's a kid's movie -- so hugs are mandatory Tongue)

2. For me, maybe I would have been fine with something a bit subtler. Thorin could look at Bilbo, and an understanding look could pass between them. And there was no real need to set it up as a beratement in the first place. He could start with "I thought you would be a burden..."

HOWEVER, this is entirely because I feel that Bilbo did not really do anything to merit such scolding from Thorin. The trolls? That was more Fili's and Kili's fault. Yes, Bilbo got caught and they were forced to lay down their arms, but to think it was entirely his fault was a bit unfair, no? Warg chase? Not Bilbo's fault. Goblin Town? Again, not Bilbo's fault. He had done nothing to cause them trouble apart from slipping during the Stone Giants scene. If in the EE we see more of Bilbo falling behind, unable to keep up, or unable to defend himself, Thorin's end speech would be a lot more believable.

Then again, I know people in real life who would list your shortcomings first before saying nice things about you. Really. (Plus, Mr. Darcy did it when he was trying to propose, so there's a long tradition there) Tongue

In short: I don't really mind the scene as it is, and I thought it was pretty sweet of Thorin to openly admit he was wrong. Cliches work better in children's stories -- and that's what The Hobbit is for me. I felt the story needed that emotional closure, and by setting it up as a conflict first, it just makes the hug a bit more powerful.

Subject User Time
"Arson, Murder and Life-saving" -- Thorin's cliched speech Súlimë Send a private message to Súlimë Jan 30 2013, 10:11am
    I do not see a need to repeat this topic now. Kangi Ska Send a private message to Kangi Ska Jan 30 2013, 10:41am
        Sorry... Súlimë Send a private message to Súlimë Jan 30 2013, 10:46am
        It is not a repeat. dernwyn Send a private message to dernwyn Jan 30 2013, 11:17am
            Thank you Súlimë Send a private message to Súlimë Jan 31 2013, 3:30am
        I don't agree, I think it's a separate topic and Loresilme Send a private message to Loresilme Jan 30 2013, 2:56pm
    I agree with your thoughts... jtarkey Send a private message to jtarkey Jan 30 2013, 10:46am
    Aww I just replied to the "Never been so wrong" thread :) Yva Send a private message to Yva Jan 30 2013, 11:34am
        Whenever it was added... bborchar Send a private message to bborchar Jan 30 2013, 12:38pm
            I don't wish to derail the thread too much Yva Send a private message to Yva Jan 30 2013, 2:12pm
        Scene is integral to the script arithmancer Send a private message to arithmancer Jan 30 2013, 1:42pm
            I guess you're right Yva Send a private message to Yva Jan 30 2013, 2:37pm
                If anything... bborchar Send a private message to bborchar Jan 30 2013, 3:01pm
                    I was rather referring Yva Send a private message to Yva Jan 30 2013, 3:27pm
                        Bilbo's choice arithmancer Send a private message to arithmancer Jan 30 2013, 3:57pm
                    he's supposed to gain that trust aarondirebear Send a private message to aarondirebear Feb 12 2013, 8:45pm
        I think it was planned Súlimë Send a private message to Súlimë Jan 30 2013, 2:02pm
        If I remember RAs comment Esmeralda Send a private message to Esmeralda Jan 30 2013, 2:17pm
        RA is more than capable of much more subtlety Kangi Ska Send a private message to Kangi Ska Jan 30 2013, 10:04pm
            "Thorin is the negation of subtlety" Yva Send a private message to Yva Jan 30 2013, 11:40pm
                I would clarify? Kangi Ska Send a private message to Kangi Ska Jan 31 2013, 2:08am
                    Like a Captain glor Send a private message to glor Jan 31 2013, 2:42am
                        There are those who hug Kangi Ska Send a private message to Kangi Ska Jan 31 2013, 2:54am
                Effortlessly being Thorin. Roheryn Send a private message to Roheryn Jan 31 2013, 7:55am
                    yes, RA was Thorin Old Toby Send a private message to Old Toby Jan 31 2013, 3:44pm
    Not so good stoutfiles Send a private message to stoutfiles Jan 30 2013, 1:14pm
        Awww Súlimë Send a private message to Súlimë Jan 30 2013, 2:08pm
            The right thing Gelir Send a private message to Gelir Jan 31 2013, 1:39am
                I agree with you about Bilbo and the Arkenstone... bborchar Send a private message to bborchar Jan 31 2013, 2:12am
    Speech validity Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 30 2013, 1:18pm
        Good point! Súlimë Send a private message to Súlimë Jan 30 2013, 2:17pm
            This is a good point... bborchar Send a private message to bborchar Jan 30 2013, 2:28pm
            Thanks! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 30 2013, 8:14pm
                Thanks to O.P. Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 30 2013, 8:30pm
        That rates a "mod-up"! Kangi Ska Send a private message to Kangi Ska Jan 30 2013, 10:22pm
            Much appreciated Kangi Ska Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jan 31 2013, 12:52am
        Great post! Gelir Send a private message to Gelir Jan 31 2013, 1:22am
        useful insights! swordwhale Send a private message to swordwhale Jan 31 2013, 7:04am
    Loved the scene, especially Thorin's speech. arithmancer Send a private message to arithmancer Jan 30 2013, 1:25pm
        Awww Súlimë Send a private message to Súlimë Jan 31 2013, 7:43am
    I should never have replied to the post in the other thread, haha imin Send a private message to imin Jan 30 2013, 2:54pm
        It actually fooled me. hutch Send a private message to hutch Jan 30 2013, 9:09pm
    I liked it too, but also wanted to share Loresilme Send a private message to Loresilme Jan 30 2013, 3:34pm
        That's interesting! Súlimë Send a private message to Súlimë Jan 31 2013, 4:16am
    Too soon perhaps? CathrineB Send a private message to CathrineB Jan 30 2013, 3:34pm
        Maybe... but... Súlimë Send a private message to Súlimë Jan 31 2013, 7:51am
            Grumpy is OK arithmancer Send a private message to arithmancer Jan 31 2013, 2:02pm
                My bad Súlimë Send a private message to Súlimë Feb 1 2013, 8:12am
    Move on this topic has been beat to death Rostron2 Send a private message to Rostron2 Jan 30 2013, 3:39pm
        We don't manage our discussions that way. entmaiden Send a private message to entmaiden Jan 30 2013, 7:36pm
            Understood // Rostron2 Send a private message to Rostron2 Jan 30 2013, 10:29pm
    2D and 3D mefansmum Jan 30 2013, 4:09pm
        Did you view it first in 3D HFR? // imin Send a private message to imin Jan 30 2013, 4:22pm
        That's interesting Súlimë Send a private message to Súlimë Jan 31 2013, 7:50am
    I took this speech as Arandiel Send a private message to Arandiel Jan 31 2013, 5:42am
        I think Súlimë Send a private message to Súlimë Jan 31 2013, 7:56am
            I'm not sure... Roheryn Send a private message to Roheryn Jan 31 2013, 9:56am
                My impression of Thorin is similar, Arandiel Send a private message to Arandiel Jan 31 2013, 7:59pm
                You're probably right Súlimë Send a private message to Súlimë Feb 1 2013, 7:56am
    Wasn't in the book aarondirebear Send a private message to aarondirebear Feb 12 2013, 8:42pm

 
 
 

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