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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Mirkwood battle to be DOS equivalent of Helms deep.

Thorins_apprentice
Rohan


Jan 29 2013, 9:35am

Post #1 of 19 (1910 views)
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Mirkwood battle to be DOS equivalent of Helms deep. Can't Post

At least i heard this from another source.Wink
What do you suppose that means.?

We are more connected than ever before, more able to spread our ideas and beliefs, our anger and fears. As we exercise the right to advocate our views, and as we animate our supporters, we must all assume responsibility for our words and actions before they enter a vast echo chamber and reach those both serious and delirious, connected and unhinged.



(This post was edited by Thorins_apprentice on Jan 29 2013, 9:44am)


jtarkey
Rohan


Jan 29 2013, 10:19am

Post #2 of 19 (1067 views)
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If it were true... [In reply to] Can't Post

It means the build up takes up half of the film's running time, with the actual battle taking up the other half.

I don't see this happening at all. There is so much Bilbo and the Dwarves have to go through. Making it last as long as Helm's Deep would just be ridiculous. BOFA in TABA is enough action in itself.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 29 2013, 12:45pm

Post #3 of 19 (919 views)
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What would that source be? [In reply to] Can't Post

In any case, I find this exceptionally unlikely. This is a story of Bilbo and the Company, not Gandalf and the White Council. While they are bound to appear and play an important part in the story, they can't dominate it or overtake the position of main protagonists for the film. Furthermore, I'm extremely doubtful of the idea that we would see any great battle at Dol Guldur, at all. The setting is simply unsuitable for great armies or battles; the dense forest would get in the way of the action, and its very likely that there is a great tunnel network under the ruin, to boot. It would be a nightmare to direct a coherent mass battle in that setting. I find it far more likely that whatever battle there is going to be at that location, it will be only between small elite forces. Also, I doubt that we will see it before TaBA.


Boromir Stark
Rivendell

Jan 29 2013, 1:42pm

Post #4 of 19 (856 views)
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I think that the battle of Dol Guldur will happen on DoS [In reply to] Can't Post

but I don't believe it will dominate the movie.

It will be built up from the point where Gandalf explores Dol Guldur, intercut through the rest of the movie with the Company in Mirkwood stuff. The battle itself will begin maybe in the last quarter of the movie, mixed in with some Laketown and the attack by Smaug.

I also don't think it will be a particularly large scale battle. We'll likely see Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, Galadriel and Elrond (and maybe Beorn???) storming the fortress and facing down the Ringwraiths, with maybe a few orcs thrown in. I think it will end with the Ringwraiths being dispersed and Sauron fleeing as the Council reach him. I also think Radagast might meet his maker.


Elk2013
The Shire


Jan 29 2013, 1:55pm

Post #5 of 19 (793 views)
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No way... [In reply to] Can't Post

13 dwarves, a hobbit and a bunch of elves fighting spiders to be the equivalent of Helms Deep! And if we get the battle of Dol Dol Guldur, I guess it will be a 'magical' battle more likely.



nhui06
Rivendell

Jan 29 2013, 3:59pm

Post #6 of 19 (725 views)
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PJ loves his battles [In reply to] Can't Post

I would not be surprised if the attack on Dol Guldur will be spectacular! Peter Jackson makes these movies so he can have his fantasy battles (and paying customers go to these movies to watch them). Based on last month's Empire article, it seems like Galandrial goes rescues Gandalf from Dol Guldur. Expect a full assault by the elves onto the fortress versus the Nazgul and Orcs. Fun times.


Owain
Tol Eressea


Jan 29 2013, 4:38pm

Post #7 of 19 (667 views)
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I think are lot's of opportunities... [In reply to] Can't Post

for action and suspense during Act ll.

I'm not sure that the Mirkwood Spider sequence will be at the level of Helm's Deep - as that was the centerpiece for TTT.

Smaug should and most likely will be the crescendo of this next act.

My 2 cents.

Smile

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


Rostron2
Gondor


Jan 29 2013, 5:00pm

Post #8 of 19 (641 views)
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Unlikely [In reply to] Can't Post

It also depends on what you consider 'the' battle.

A melee with spiders, a magical melee at Dol Guldur are not Helms Deep.

The battle with the dragon could be played up big for action, but it's a pretty personal battle with arrows against a dragon.


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Jan 29 2013, 5:10pm

Post #9 of 19 (646 views)
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Which source? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a feeling the Dol Guldur battle won't be much of a battle (i.e. massive armies, siege), the place is a deserted ruin. Rather, it'll be wizards / elves vs wraiths, a small skirmish. I'm still kinda dreading it to be honest, it seems difficult to film without it looking cheesy. I already wasn't a fan of the Radagast vs with king confrontation.


(This post was edited by Estel78 on Jan 29 2013, 5:14pm)


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 29 2013, 5:16pm

Post #10 of 19 (646 views)
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That would be too rushed, I think. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It will be built up from the point where Gandalf explores Dol Guldur, intercut through the rest of the movie with the Company in Mirkwood stuff. The battle itself will begin maybe in the last quarter of the movie, mixed in with some Laketown and the attack by Smaug.


There needs to be a buildup where the Necromancer goes from a total question mark to be recognised as the Dark Lord Sauron, and will only then be confronted. It's too much for one, middle film of a trilogy to introduce the main villain of the original trilogy and unceremoniously dispose of him.

I can't for the life of me understand why people still imagine that the Necromancer will be a minor sideshow to the events. In order to justify his existence in The Hobbit at all, he needs to excert influence on the main plot, adding depth and character to the canonical events that are already established, most notably the Battle of Five Armies. Otherwise you can just as well leave him out and no-one would be any the wiser.

It has been leaked that Gandalf will be badly injured at some point of the trilogy and that Galadriel will mend him back to health. I find it most likely that this will happen in the DoS when Gandalf goes alone in Dol Guldur and gets caught by the Necromancer, himself. He finds out the terrible truth and flees for his life. Then, at the start of TaBA he will recount his experiences to the White Council and they take action, which in turn will in some way lead to the Bo5A as Sauron's revenge.


bborchar
Rohan


Jan 29 2013, 6:26pm

Post #11 of 19 (588 views)
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I agree... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I can't for the life of me understand why people still imagine that the Necromancer will be a minor sideshow to the events. In order to justify his existence in The Hobbit at all, he needs to excert influence on the main plot, adding depth and character to the canonical events that are already established, most notably the Battle of Five Armies. Otherwise you can just as well leave him out and no-one would be any the wiser.


I don't understand it, either. It's not just "filler" to pad out three films (or even two). It's an important part in the history of Middle Earth that happened at the same time as the quest for Erebor (at least, according to Tolkien). Just because Tolkien didn't add an extra 300 pages in the Hobbit to flesh it out for readers, doesn't mean that the filmmakers are forbidden from doing so. I think people are just scared because they don't know what is going to happen in that particular storyline, and they think that any interpretation of it will automatically fail. I, for one, am actually really looking forward to seeing it...I don't have any preconceived notion of what it's "supposed" to be like, so it will be a surprise when I get to see it.


stoutfiles
Rohan


Jan 29 2013, 8:46pm

Post #12 of 19 (503 views)
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hmm [In reply to] Can't Post

-The good team will be vastly outnumbered.

-When the battle is lost, another army will show up.

-Legolas will surf down something.

Wait, all those happened in RotK as well. Maybe it will rain?


Loresilme
Valinor


Jan 29 2013, 8:56pm

Post #13 of 19 (541 views)
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I might win the Flaming Pine Cone award [In reply to] Can't Post

for Worst Fan Speculation of the Day Laugh, but here's my 'anything's-possible' speculation on it:

Let's meander down this path a bit ... ok so we all know there's this big, big, big battle at the end of the third film. Now in the book, all these events are going on at the mountain between the dwarves, elves and men, but then all of sudden (more or less) the orcs show up and boom there's a big battle. So that idea worked well enough in the book, but as far as the film goes, maybe they decide it would be more impactful if all those orcs showing up were more connected along the way to the dwarves and elves and men. In that light, another, earlier battle between these various groups could set up everybody getting fired up for the big showdown. So that in the third film, the main characters and the audience would be aware earlier on, that the orcs are on their way.

And there's also the necromancer, played by Benjamin Cumberbatch, one of the most sought after actors of the current moment, I think they are *not* going to let him go to waste, I suspect the necromancer is going to be way bigger in the films than we're expecting or they wouldn't have gone after someone like BC, no matter how wonderful his voice is. So... that might mean a link between the necromancer and the orcs, to tie together the various storylines.

So did they mean, the Mirkwood battle would be like Helm's Deep in terms of unexpected participants showing up in Mirkwood --- the way the Elves showed up unexpectedly at Helm's Deep?

Who knows, maybe - might there be all kinds of unexpected participants showing up in Mirkwood -- the Necromancer and the Orcs, etc., along with who knows who else. With various events then occurring in the Mirkwood battle that fire up everyone's fear and hatred and ratchets up all the revenge-seeking motivations even more, so that by the time the BOFA happens, the audience is very clear on all the reasons why these various combatants all want to obliterate each other?

TongueSly *runs away dodging flaming pine cones* CoolLaugh


Rostron2
Gondor


Jan 29 2013, 9:34pm

Post #14 of 19 (485 views)
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Well, they are scared... [In reply to] Can't Post

Because to some people here -- the film alterations and additions are not quite as effective as the main story. It's basically written from scratch based on some appendix material. It's like if I didn't think there was enough explanation in Romeo and Juliet, and made my own verse that kind of looked like Shakespeare, but it obviously isn't.

For me, the White Council was interesting, but not compelling by itself, though we all know its going to lead to some kind of showdown with the Necromancer. Hour long battle? No. PJ had enough trouble with the Saruman vs. Gandalf wizard fight in FOTR.

I liked the fact that they took the time to do the White Council, and added the Necromancer story to the films to deepen the stakes a little, but it's not the main narrative.

The movies names also state where the focus is.

The Desolation of Smaug
There and Back Again

It's not...

The Hobbit: The Revenge of the Necromancer

In a practical way, at least Ian McKellan gets more time as Gandalf, where he would otherwise vanish for half the time.


bborchar
Rohan


Jan 29 2013, 9:44pm

Post #15 of 19 (459 views)
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I agree... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In a practical way, at least Ian McKellan gets more time as Gandalf, where he would otherwise vanish for half the time.


I basically see it as a device to explain this. Kids may not notice these things, but a wider audience is going to wonder "why on earth did he leave suddenly at the most dangerous part and then only come back after everything has gone to hell?" It's something that just doesn't really work narratively. I really liked that, during the white council scene, Gandalf explains his motivations for the quest in the first place- he's worried about Smaug joining forces with the enemy. Without that, this quest may not seem necessary or urgent enough. I've never really felt that it overshadowed the main quest, though...just plugged some holes :)


cats16
Valinor

Jan 29 2013, 10:14pm

Post #16 of 19 (429 views)
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Completely agree with you [In reply to] Can't Post

The only way that Gandalf's disappearance could have worked was if LOTR did not exist. We wouldn't care about what happened, because our main focus is on the dwarves. But LOTR does exist, AND it was filmed before TH. So for the general audience's sake, a couple of the dots need to be connected.


Beeromir
The Shire


Jan 29 2013, 10:48pm

Post #17 of 19 (429 views)
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Or... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
So did they mean, the Mirkwood battle would be like Helm's Deep in terms of unexpected participants showing up in Mirkwood --- the way the Elves showed up unexpectedly at Helm's Deep?


Or, maybe it will be like Helm's Deep in that PJ and company will fundamentally alter the battle for cinematic reasons in a way that makes mincemeat of the book (eliminating the Grey Company altogether and making Aragorn some anti-hero, and having Elves at Helm's Deep instead).


Rostron2
Gondor


Jan 29 2013, 10:53pm

Post #18 of 19 (427 views)
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I guess [In reply to] Can't Post

Arwen could show up this time...oh wait, Tauriel is filling in... :)


glor
Rohan

Jan 30 2013, 9:10am

Post #19 of 19 (377 views)
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Cumberpatch [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, he is very busy which means he may be too busy to be in BOFA and film in May. Even if he is, he does not have to be the Neuromancer. Ever since i saw him on the BBC in 2005 i thought he would have made a perfect Thranduil, but there is always the distant possibility he couldl turn up as another of Tolkien's famous elves Wink

 
 

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