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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
In which Ro continues having thoughts
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Roheryn
Grey Havens

Jan 24 2013, 11:17pm

Post #1 of 120 (1529 views)
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In which Ro continues having thoughts Can't Post

I made it to viewing #11 last night (thanks to Mr. Ro for indulging me), and still have new musings and observations to share! It takes a pretty special movie for viewers to still be noticing and thinking about new things after 11 viewings, doesn’t it? (Either that or said viewer is just a bit slow on the uptake, and if you suggest that, c’mere and I’ll thwap you.)

(Apologies in advance for the length!)

So, here you go.

1. Radagast’s nose is listing to starboard. No particular significance there, but I remember reading that the prosthetics team subtly straightened RA’s nose. Radagast clearly got the opposite treatment!
2. The bird that tells Radagast about the Necromancer is an American robin (I’ve seen it pointed out elsewhere that it is a robin, but both the UK and New Zealand have unrelated species that are also called robins). Now, I find this American robin to be particularly out of place: they are native to North America, so not only are there none in the UK (and so should be none in Middle-earth), but there are none in NZ either (so no inspiration for them being in New Zealand-flavoured Middle-earth).
3. Azog’s white Warg, as has been noted elsewhere I think, is indeed female. The Warg that Kili shoots as per Thorin’s silent instruction (while the company hides below the rock that the Warg and its rider are on) is clearly male.
4. Something about the Wargs’ heads strikes me as catlike. I think it’s because they are so broad. Canids tend to have narrower ones.
5. As the company is winding their way through the narrow rock crevice heading in to Rivendell, Bofur is behind Bombur, and several times shoves him along. I couldn’t tell if it was because Bombur, fat Dwarf that he is, was getting stuck and Bofur was trying to unstick him, or if Bombur was getting distracted by something and wanting to stop to smell the roses, as it were; or maybe Bombur just wasn’t moving fast enough for Bofur? Ha! Need to see the movie again.
6. Thorin knows perfectly well where Gandalf is leading them by the time they’re brought to bay by the Wargs and Orcs on the plains, and knows exactly where the path leads once they’ve all escaped down into that little cave. He seems to be fuming about it but can’t do anything but follow Gandalf there. He’s certainly not going to tell Dwalin that they should follow the path, even though he knows they have no choice.
7. Saruman’s line at the White Council: (approximately) “…who calls himself a necromancer…”. Now this is interesting: what evidence is there that said being (?) “calls himself” such? Has someone actually spoken with him? Radagast surely didn’t hear that spooky shape holler out “I AM A NECROMANCER! MUAHAHAHA!”, did he?
8. During the lovely exchange between Bofur and Bilbo in the Goblins’ “front porch”, you can see flashes of light from lightning – clearly the storm is still raging outside, yet Bilbo is intending to head back to Rivendell anyways. Brave (or foolish?) Hobbit!
9. In the book, after Bilbo asks Gollum the egg riddle, Gollum takes a while to answer. Bilbo finally tells him, “The answer’s not a kettle boiling over, as you seem to think from the noise you are making.” Bilbo of course doesn’t say this in the movie, but the noise Gollum makes there in the movie as he’s thinking does sound, to me at least, just like Bilbo describes it in the book! Neat attention to detail. :-)
10. When they stop for the head-count after escaping Goblin-town, and discover Bilbo missing, Kili looks wildly around for Bilbo – but is looking at the ground, as if Bilbo might be a lost bag or package that someone dropped.
11. Through the “15 birds in 5 fir trees” sequence, there’s a moon shining behind clouds. Whenever I remembered to look for it (which was only when Thorin wasn’t on screen), I never could see the actual moon, just its light behind the clouds. Has anyone else managed to see the moon there or is it not shown at all? I ask because if we could see the phase, we could work out what time of night it is.
12. Another detail in the book that was followed perfectly: after Gandalf and company throw the pinecones into the Wargs and set things on fire, the book says, “The dwarves and Bilbo shouted and cheered.” That is EXACTLY what they do in the movie!
13. Just before we see Smaug’s nostril emerge from the mound of gold at the end, we can see a staircase in the background. There are large runes on the side of this staircase – about 8 or 10, maybe. I’m really curious as to what they say, but fear we’ll need a pause button to work them out! Mr. Ro, helpful soul that he is, said he knew what they said: “Watch your step.”
14. All the Dwarves have long hair done up in various ways. Only Thorin, Fili and Kili have theirs partially pulled back and held with some kind of silver-looking hair clip. From the back, ignoring colour, the hairstyles of those three look pretty similar. And does anyone else have occasional trouble telling apart Kili and Thorin when the action sequences get going fast? There’s clearly some family resemblance there. (Ha! Managed to work Thorin’s hair into this thread.)
15. Finally, this is where maybe I’m slow on the uptake. It just finally occurred to me last night what Fili and Kili are up to with Bilbo just before the trolls. When Kili says “It’s perfectly safe! We’ll be right behind you,” he says it with the same mock-innocence with which he delivered his lines earlier about the noises Bilbo had heard coming from heaps of bloodthirsty Orcs. He and Fili are just having Bilbo on there and are hoping for a bit of entertainment. Hence them disappearing the second Bilbo steps forward muttering about owls. Fili and Kili are probably in the bushes, sniggering the whole time at Bilbo dodging trolls and trying to rescue ponies, while they enjoy their stew. That explains why, as soon as there’s trouble, Kili immediately pops out of the bushes with all the bravado of youth to rescue Bilbo; Fili shows up a minute later because he has (much more sensibly) run back to enlist the help of the others. I wonder if they ever had to own up to Thorin that it was their idea to send Bilbo in to the trolls? That ought at least to elicit another scornful “You know nothing of the world!”.


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 24 2013, 11:50pm

Post #2 of 120 (720 views)
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Shouldn't it be [In reply to] Can't Post

"Mind the step"? ;)

I think Mr. Ro needs to see the movie again just to be sure!


EyeRock
Bree


Jan 24 2013, 11:57pm

Post #3 of 120 (717 views)
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I'm sure it's a typo but... [In reply to] Can't Post

At number 5, it's Bifur who keeps pushing Bombur along the trail to rivendell, not Bofur. He seems strangely aware of his surroundings here, but I guess you don't need the brightest mind to notice a big tub of lard blocking your way.


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Jan 24 2013, 11:57pm

Post #4 of 120 (706 views)
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Will you be seeing it again? :) [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
7. Saruman’s line at the White Council: (approximately) “…who calls himself a necromancer…”. Now this is interesting: what evidence is there that said being (?) “calls himself” such? Has someone actually spoken with him? Radagast surely didn’t hear that spooky shape holler out “I AM A NECROMANCER! MUAHAHAHA!”, did he?

If I recall correctly:
Radagast tells Gandalf he sees a Necromancer. Then at the White Council Gandalf tells Saruman about the woodsmen speaking of a Necromancer living in Dol Guldur...Saraman says something about "this Necromancer...is nothing more than a man..."

I find it interesting that it is referred to as "a Necromancer" not "The Necromancer". Interesting too that Radagast knows what a Necromancer is (and the other Wizards do too) and seem familiar with the term...and that Saruman has a ready explanation.

I also remember (oh, years ago) when I first read the Hobbit and asking my mother what a Necromancer was. She made me look it up in either a dictionary or encyclopedia, but I did find it (no internet in 1970!).


There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much.


(This post was edited by Aragalen the Green on Jan 25 2013, 12:00am)


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Jan 25 2013, 12:04am

Post #5 of 120 (709 views)
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A funny man, your Mr! [In reply to] Can't Post

About this...


In Reply To
7. Saruman’s line at the White Council: (approximately) “…who calls himself a necromancer…”. Now this is interesting: what evidence is there that said being (?) “calls himself” such? Has someone actually spoken with him? Radagast surely didn’t hear that spooky shape holler out “I AM A NECROMANCER! MUAHAHAHA!”, did he?



Would it be wrong to say a little bird told him? Angelic

(It's possibly an indication that Saruman knows more about this Dark Mystery Man than he has told the White Council, and which he has kept from them until now.)

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Jan 25 2013, 12:13am

Post #6 of 120 (688 views)
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Now that I have the internet, and to satisfy my geeky curiousity... [In reply to] Can't Post

I looked it up on Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromancy

Necromancy is a term that has a very long history, and it a "form of magic involving communication with the deceased...either by summoning their spirit as an apparition or raising them bodily--for the purpose of divination".

So Radagast describes the Necromancer as one who can raise the spirits of the dead, as seen by the wraith Witch-King he fights in Dol Guldur.


There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much.


Kimtc
Rohan


Jan 25 2013, 1:34am

Post #7 of 120 (670 views)
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Since we're going to talk about Thorin's hair... [In reply to] Can't Post

My assumption is that Thorin, Fili and Kili all have the same hair clip, probably some attempt on the part of the hair/costume designers to connect them in some way. I haven't seen them up close, just my wild stab in the dark. It might be possible that there are other things about their hair and costuming that connect them as family, and we just haven't seen it. I mean, besides not making them unattractive.


florian
The Shire

Jan 25 2013, 1:49am

Post #8 of 120 (648 views)
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hair clips/ similar styles [In reply to] Can't Post

The backstory I gathered from the movie companion books was that Thorin raised/helped raise his nephews so perhaps he fixed their hair in the same style he did his own. Thorin doesn't look like a fussy, sitting around braiding the kids' hair sort of uncle.Tongue


marillaraina
Rohan

Jan 25 2013, 1:49am

Post #9 of 120 (648 views)
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Hmm.... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
That explains why, as soon as there’s trouble, Kili immediately pops out of the bushes with all the bravado of youth to rescue Bilbo; Fili shows up a minute later because he has (much more sensibly) run back to enlist the help of the others. I wonder if they ever had to own up to Thorin that it was their idea to send Bilbo in to the trolls? That ought at least to elicit another scornful “You know nothing of the world!”.


Considering how quickly the rest of the company showed up(they were already moving behind Kili in tne background when he finishes saying "drop him", you can see them in the background), I'm pretty sure Fili went back to get the rest of the company before Kili jumped out, so I'd say it was more likely they saw Bilbo getting into trouble, Kili stayed behind to keep an eye and Fili went back to get reinforcements.

Other than that I think it's probably fairly likely it went how you describe, though I'm not sure. I do think they could have been honest in what they were saying, I mean, they aren't the sharpest tools in the shed and don't have any real experience, they may have entirely believed what they were saying to him and I mean they did manage to lose a bunch of ponies when they were supposed to watching, it seems like they can be easily distracted, so I can imagine them getting distracted easily by their stew while imagining their burglar would be fine, I mean it's what burglars do after all. LOL Like if there are keys there must be a door and how wizards are always killing dragons. :D


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Jan 25 2013, 1:50am

Post #10 of 120 (624 views)
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11 times? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've only seen it twice!Frown I want to see it again!
It's interesting. One doesn't see everything on the first few viewings. I always notice new things for the first time whenever I watch The Lord of the Rings I expect it to be the same for The Hobbit.


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 25 2013, 1:53am

Post #11 of 120 (626 views)
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Smaug's nostril? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that's Smaug's ear, picking up the faint "knocking" of the thrush.

When his eye is revealed, the right side of it looks like the part which would be close to the nose, still hidden.

Check it out, in your next viewing! Wink


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






Kimtc
Rohan


Jan 25 2013, 2:00am

Post #12 of 120 (605 views)
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I thought it was his nostril, too [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, gee, I'll just have to go see it again. Poor me!


In Reply To
I think that's Smaug's ear, picking up the faint "knocking" of the thrush.

When his eye is revealed, the right side of it looks like the part which would be close to the nose, still hidden.

Check it out, in your next viewing! Wink

WinkWinkLaugh


Kimtc
Rohan


Jan 25 2013, 2:04am

Post #13 of 120 (641 views)
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So the takeaway is the dwarves with the fanciest hair had moms who groomed them. [In reply to] Can't Post

Clearly Dori and Nori's mom put in overtime on them, and just gave up by the time Ori came along.


In Reply To
The backstory I gathered from the movie companion books was that Thorin raised/helped raise his nephews so perhaps he fixed their hair in the same style he did his own. Thorin doesn't look like a fussy, sitting around braiding the kids' hair sort of uncle.Tongue



Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Jan 25 2013, 2:10am

Post #14 of 120 (602 views)
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Warg's heads [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
4. Something about the Wargs’ heads strikes me as catlike. I think it’s because they are so broad. Canids tend to have narrower ones.

I think it is their noses as well, they don't look wolf-like. Kind of stretched back, not really like a cat's either, just not right.


There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much.


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Jan 25 2013, 2:25am

Post #15 of 120 (634 views)
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More thoughts...(Thorin's hair :) [In reply to] Can't Post

Not about Thorin's hair, actually! But it is so cool....

Quote
2. The bird that tells Radagast about the Necromancer is an American robin (I’ve seen it pointed out elsewhere that it is a robin, but both the UK and New Zealand have unrelated species that are also called robins). Now, I find this American robin to be particularly out of place: they are native to North America, so not only are there none in the UK (and so should be none in Middle-earth), but there are none in NZ either (so no inspiration for them being in New Zealand-flavoured Middle-earth).

I notice there are a couple references to foods found in the Americas, such as potatoes (The Lord of the Rings books and movies); corn/maize (FotR movie); tomatoes (AUJ and FotR movies) and I believe there are bell peppers in Bilbo's pantry (AUJ).


Quote
3. Azog’s white Warg, as has been noted elsewhere I think, is indeed female. The Warg that Kili shoots as per Thorin’s silent instruction (while the company hides below the rock that the Warg and its rider are on) is clearly male.

Um, I thought so too--wow, obviously male!--but I think it is actually the Orc's other foot. Blush


There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much.


ryouko
Lorien

Jan 25 2013, 2:38am

Post #16 of 120 (618 views)
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actually [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that Dori and Nori do their own hair. When they were younger, they probably had Ori's haircut and decided that they'd braid their own, rather than have dear old mum do it. Laugh


In Reply To
Clearly Dori and Nori's mom put in overtime on them, and just gave up by the time Ori came along.


In Reply To
The backstory I gathered from the movie companion books was that Thorin raised/helped raise his nephews so perhaps he fixed their hair in the same style he did his own. Thorin doesn't look like a fussy, sitting around braiding the kids' hair sort of uncle.Tongue




Kirly
Lorien


Jan 25 2013, 3:35am

Post #17 of 120 (624 views)
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I so want a replica of the hair clip! [In reply to] Can't Post

I saw a picture of Fili in full costume and realized that my hair is about that same color and about that same amount of wave/curl. weird.

Someone wondered (someplace) if anyone confuses Fili with Thorin during the action shots. I do! I know their costumes are different but when it's moving that fast, it can get difficult to tell the two dark haired hunk of dwarves apart. if it's not close enough, i can't see the fur on Thorin's coat.

i get the impression that there are a number of women here who really like the look of the three "royal" dwarves (Thorin, Fili, Kili). And, i also get the impression that a goodly number of us aren't high school girls ooohing and ahing over the latest rock star. So, my question is, do you normally like men with long wild hair and rugged good looks? or, is it a rare occasion? I'm almost embarrassed to admit that i actually find that unorthodox, almost rebellious appearance attractive. totally impractical in the real world, imo. otoh, i guess a professional middle aged woman like myself could have eye candy on her arm. lol

My avatar photo is Lake Takepo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!

pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#


Kirly
Lorien


Jan 25 2013, 3:38am

Post #18 of 120 (593 views)
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OMG! Fili and Kili are boy toys! [In reply to] Can't Post

That's part of their attractiveness! they aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer but they are wicked with their weapons and fabulous to look at!

i never thought i'd find the dwarves attractive. peter jackson is a genius!

My avatar photo is Lake Takepo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!

pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Jan 25 2013, 3:54am

Post #19 of 120 (553 views)
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It is his nostril [In reply to] Can't Post

as he exhales gustily to blow the gold coins away as he moves. But check it again, by all means! Cool

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Kimtc
Rohan


Jan 25 2013, 4:00am

Post #20 of 120 (604 views)
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Ha! You needed to be on the Estrogen Island thread a few weeks ago. [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, largely composed of mature, literary women who probably read the "Outlander" series as non-fiction. The discussion of hot dwarves at the DragonCon TORn panel was quite robust (and this was before the movie came out). We are probably the same group who acted like this over Aragorn back in the day. But, you know, you can only be geeky so much. Sometimes you just have to break it up with some fangirl--oops, fanwoman silliness. And remember, there are still more to come--Thranduil, Bard, a younger Legolas who oddly looks older, even Beorn, who so far is a total mystery. The guys only get Tauriel!


In Reply To
i get the impression that there are a number of women here who really like the look of the three "royal" dwarves (Thorin, Fili, Kili). And, i also get the impression that a goodly number of us aren't high school girls ooohing and ahing over the latest rock star. So, my question is, do you normally like men with long wild hair and rugged good looks? or, is it a rare occasion? I'm almost embarrassed to admit that i actually find that unorthodox, almost rebellious appearance attractive. totally impractical in the real world, imo. otoh, i guess a professional middle aged woman like myself could have eye candy on her arm. lol

Frown


marillaraina
Rohan

Jan 25 2013, 4:30am

Post #21 of 120 (567 views)
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Erm...:) [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Someone wondered (someplace) if anyone confuses Fili with Thorin during the action shots. I do! I know their costumes are different but when it's moving that fast, it can get difficult to tell the two dark haired hunk of dwarves apart. if it's not close enough, i can't see the fur on Thorin's coat.


You mean Kili. :) Kili is the dark haired dwarf who looks similar to Thorin.


Old Toby
Gondor


Jan 25 2013, 5:08am

Post #22 of 120 (533 views)
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No, it's definitely his nostril [In reply to] Can't Post

He lets out a huge exhale...which would be hard to do through his ear, I would imagine! Wink

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Jan 25 2013, 5:19am

Post #23 of 120 (534 views)
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thots... [In reply to] Can't Post

2.American robin... um, it's a member of the thrush family! I thought too it seemed odd to see such a familiar critter in... Middle Earth?!?!?

4.Wargs: in the art book, much is made of the wargs being based on wolves. I don't see this in the final product. Modern audiences don't do Big Bad Wolf any more, Wolf is more a symbol of the vanishing wild. The wargs seem to echo a lot of hyena design (hyenas are NOT in the canid predator line, but in the felid line) (suborder feliforms of the Carnivora). I also went..." what else does that look like???" and found: Andrewsarchus (totally sounds like: Andy Serkis)... a member of the clade Mesonychia, order Artiodactyla, lived in the Eocene, and was indeed the size of the wargs in the film. It had small hooves where most predators have claws. Look up images of it, it's precisely a warg!

6. I found it odd that it is Bofur (not line of Durin, some miner from waytheheck out there in the boonies) who seconds Dwalin's question "should we follow it or no?" Of course Thorin was saying nothing, he knew where Gandalf was leading them and he didn't like it.

Radagast surely didn’t hear that spooky shape holler out “I AM A NECROMANCER! MUAHAHAHA!”, did he? LaughLaughLaughLaugh

10. When they stop for the head-count after escaping Goblin-town, and discover Bilbo missing, Kili looks wildly around for Bilbo – but is looking at the ground, as if Bilbo might be a lost bag or package that someone dropped. LaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh It's a Kili thing. Bless that lad...

Thorin... hair.... majestic. Some day, majestic hair will be back in fashion for males in our own culture. (So Tired of Shaved Heads...)Tongue

15. SlySlySlySlySlySlySlySly that's what I thought!

Go outside and play...


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Jan 25 2013, 5:21am

Post #24 of 120 (539 views)
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from the colonies... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Not about Thorin's hair, actually! But it is so cool....

Quote
2. The bird that tells Radagast about the Necromancer is an American robin (I’ve seen it pointed out elsewhere that it is a robin, but both the UK and New Zealand have unrelated species that are also called robins). Now, I find this American robin to be particularly out of place: they are native to North America, so not only are there none in the UK (and so should be none in Middle-earth), but there are none in NZ either (so no inspiration for them being in New Zealand-flavoured Middle-earth).

I notice there are a couple references to foods found in the Americas, such as potatoes (The Lord of the Rings books and movies); corn/maize (FotR movie); tomatoes (AUJ and FotR movies) and I believe there are bell peppers in Bilbo's pantry (AUJ).


Quote
3. Azog’s white Warg, as has been noted elsewhere I think, is indeed female. The Warg that Kili shoots as per Thorin’s silent instruction (while the company hides below the rock that the Warg and its rider are on) is clearly male.

Um, I thought so too--wow, obviously male!--but I think it is actually the Orc's other foot. Blush


Um, that tobacco everyone is puffing in their pipes, yup, didn't have that before the colonies.

Go outside and play...


Old Toby
Gondor


Jan 25 2013, 5:24am

Post #25 of 120 (554 views)
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Hmm the Companion book has some Thorin info? [In reply to] Can't Post

That book's been sitting on my desk for far too long then! LOL! You know, it seems that his father didn't get into a whole lot of fancy braiding either, if I'm remembering right (hard to say, since most of the shots of Thrain had Thorin somewhere in them, and guess which one I was focused on?). It makes sense if he helped raise Fili and Kili that they too would go for the longer hair look, although Fili evidently did enjoy his braids. Kili seems to take after Uncle Thorin: can't be bothered with all the fussing.

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)

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