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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
High Frame Rate Fallout
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goken100
Registered User

Jan 24 2013, 7:30pm

Post #1 of 47 (1127 views)
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High Frame Rate Fallout Can't Post

We can all agree that the High Frame Rate version of The Hobbit is receiving mixed reviews. I'm wondering if PJ has responded yet, or if any other news studios adjusting to the feedback has come out. Why might there be a response, you ask?

A lot of folks don't like it, and that creates a lot of negative energy surrounding the whole affair. Enough of a negative energy to make it land on some jerk's worst-of list and make a lot of ill-informed people think the movies are under-performing.

My feelings on the subject are best summed up by my favorite web comic: Weregeek link "If the best you can say is that you didn't hate it as much as you thought, it may not be worth it." Wisdom, that is.

I know the comic is talking about 3D, and that's a questionable inclusion as well, but I think the more egregious technology here is HFR. Not because its terrible, but because of the subject matter. The Hobbit is fantasy. When people complain about seeing fake costumes too clearly, it makes me sad. For the same reasons that a beautiful anime movie is beautiful, maybe a fantasy movie is more fantastical without crisp realism. At least, until the technology is more widely accepted.

Thoughts?


Rostron2
Gondor


Jan 24 2013, 7:42pm

Post #2 of 47 (513 views)
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This is all web talk [In reply to] Can't Post

I've yet to see a real-world survey about it. If someone can show me a sample of 1000 average movie-goers that were surveyed and "a lot of folks" didn't like it, then I would say that's significant.

An informal poll of friends of mine( not very scientific perhaps) but a real world non TORN educated group had these results:

11 of 13 I spoke with were in the "liked" or really liked the way the films looked in HFR. The other two didn't really notice much difference or felt it took some getting used to. However, nearly all complained that the 3-D HFR price per ticket was quite high.(In our areas they can run up to 15 US dollars per ticket)


Eruonen
Tol Eressea


Jan 24 2013, 7:44pm

Post #3 of 47 (489 views)
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There is a saying... [In reply to] Can't Post

" Pioneers Take the Arrows, Settlers Take the Land"

PJ is taking the arrows right now, but the future film land will reflect what he has pioneered.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jan 24 2013, 7:45pm)


goken100
Registered User

Jan 24 2013, 7:47pm

Post #4 of 47 (479 views)
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Survey?! [In reply to] Can't Post

A survey's a good idea! Can we do those on this site? I know we're probably a biased group, but we could phrase the question as something like "what is your preferred method for viewing The Hobbit?".


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 24 2013, 7:49pm

Post #5 of 47 (473 views)
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Our Pollantir forum [In reply to] Can't Post

allows you to put up a poll.


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Jan 24 2013, 7:52pm

Post #6 of 47 (446 views)
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There is a site in The One Ring Forums called the "Pollantir" [In reply to] Can't Post

in the "Off Topic" section, where you can set up a poll. I've never done it but you could ask one of the awesome Forum Moderators/Administrators :) (Or look at the FAQ's?)

There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much.


bborchar
Rohan


Jan 24 2013, 7:53pm

Post #7 of 47 (446 views)
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Sounds about right... [In reply to] Can't Post

It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I haven't spoken to anyone who didn't think it looked amazing. I won't say it was perfect, but I think it's a matter of getting used to it, as well as figuring out the best uses for it. I was very hesitant to watch it in the HFR myself, but decided to before it left theaters...and then went and saw it again because I was so astonished. I will definitely be seeing DoS in HFR the first time.


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Jan 24 2013, 7:54pm

Post #8 of 47 (453 views)
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Wow, you're fast! [In reply to] Can't Post

I take too long to type Blush

There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much.


Rostron2
Gondor


Jan 24 2013, 7:54pm

Post #9 of 47 (438 views)
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I don't know...some sites can do polls. {okay Pollantir] [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe one of the Mods can say.... OKAY MY QUESTION WAS ANSWERED THAKS!!!

There was a lot of talk about 3-D as being a gimmick for the last few years. All I see are complaints about ticket price on a regular basis, and how some people's eyes don't adjust well to 3-D.

I can't imagine they didn't show this in HFR to sample audiences. Where are the results of those surveys? Some group was a guinea pig for this. Just like they did test runs of the new 3-D technologies a few years ago. The amount of misinformation from web talk is legion and subjective.

You're right, at least a poll here would get some percentages around this enjoyment factor.


(This post was edited by Rostron2 on Jan 24 2013, 7:55pm)


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Jan 24 2013, 7:59pm

Post #10 of 47 (462 views)
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I had the opposite reaction. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
maybe a fantasy movie is more fantastical without crisp realism.



For me, the HFR removed the gritty sweatiness we felt from LOTR and made The Hobbit seem more fantastical.

Each to their own.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauronís master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Loresilme
Valinor


Jan 24 2013, 8:03pm

Post #11 of 47 (457 views)
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I had the opposite reaction to HFR [In reply to] Can't Post

"If the best you can say is that you didn't hate it as much as you thought, it may not be worth it."
______________________________________

I went in not expecting to like it, because I had never liked 3D. I came away with a complete different opinion. I loved it in HFR.













goken100
Registered User

Jan 24 2013, 8:15pm

Post #12 of 47 (438 views)
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A poll is born! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, that's nifty. I put up a quick poll:
http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=566445

There's also an older poll that is pretty close:
http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=551281


LordMaximus
Rivendell


Jan 24 2013, 8:35pm

Post #13 of 47 (417 views)
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Did anyone else get the weird speeding up thing happening in 48 fps? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have talked about this previously and someone thought I was talking about the differences between formats. I was watching with my gf and she did not notice what I described to her in the same viewing. I am guessing something is wrong with my brain. It basically happened only when things were moving fast on screen, like the dwarves running around and the sled chase.

Did anyone else have this weird thing happening to them?! or is it just me?


jtarkey
Rohan


Jan 24 2013, 8:36pm

Post #14 of 47 (419 views)
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I don't really think he's a pioneer... [In reply to] Can't Post

One of the main reasons people don't like HFR, is because it's not new. Almost everyone has seen it in soap operas, and cheap video programs. Thus, it's bad reception. If no one had ever seen HFR before, the reaction would probably be a lot different. Granted, 48fps is higher a frame rate than those things, it still gives that same feel.

Yes, he's the first person to release a feature film in this format, but there is a reason that it hasn't been done before. IDK, maybe it's just because I really don't like HFR, but I just don't think it's right for narrative storytelling on the big screen. Something like Planet Earth would benefit a lot more from HFR and 3D.

I think PJ would have been a bigger pioneer if he decided to shoot The Hobbit the same way he shot LOTR. On film, with miniatures, and a combination of practical and CGI effects. So far, every director to re-ignite a franchise has drastically changed the aesthetic of the film in order to keep up with the industry, or to "pioneer" new technology. What they don't realize, is that their original films are timeless because of their original methods and feel.

Of course, It's probably getting more and more difficult to persuade a studio to let you shoot a film with "old" technology, and not in 3D. Again, that would just make it more of an accomplishment, especially if it still looked as good as any film released today (which I really think it would).

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


stoutfiles
Rohan


Jan 24 2013, 8:38pm

Post #15 of 47 (417 views)
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HFR doesn't work because of LOTR [In reply to] Can't Post

They did such a good job (at first glance, yes there are mistakes) with the effects in LOTR that it felt real. Once you add in HFR, all that CGI and costume work is more evident and took a lot of people out of the movie. Remember, this is the film following up RotK, which won Best Picture. It was always going to be under the microscope.

HFR is the future, though. I predict Avatar 2 will get glowing reviews with its 60 FPS, because it's a video game world and the whole thing is basically CGI. People aren't expecting realism there where they do with The Hobbit...because of LOTR.


Owain
Tol Eressea


Jan 24 2013, 8:39pm

Post #16 of 47 (404 views)
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I actually really enjoyed HFR 3D. [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile


BTW, welcome to tORN!

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


bborchar
Rohan


Jan 24 2013, 8:39pm

Post #17 of 47 (398 views)
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I had that a little bit... [In reply to] Can't Post

...the second time I watched it. I didn't have it in the action parts, though, just the slow parts (Riddles in the Dark). I didn't have that at all the first time I watched it, though. I'm wondering if it was where I sat. The first time, I was sitting in the middle...the second time, I was sitting in the back and a little bit above the screen. It didn't last, though...I would refocus and it would go away.


Rostron2
Gondor


Jan 24 2013, 8:41pm

Post #18 of 47 (394 views)
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This is very true [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course, It's probably getting more and more difficult to persuade a studio to let you shoot a film with "old" technology, and not in 3D.

This may have been a more serious consideration for green lighting it than we realize.

Side note: If the films had been made around 2005-7 as originally estimated, this technology wasn't ready yet.




Rosie-with-the-ribbons
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 24 2013, 8:43pm

Post #19 of 47 (393 views)
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I didn't but my brother did [In reply to] Can't Post

and he figured out why.

Your mind is used to watching movies in 24 fps. And since objects move faster, your brain is used to adding some movement so it looks real. So as soon as your brain sees something moving fast, it "adds" extra images in your mind so it looks correct.
Now your eyes see 48 fps, double speed. But your brain is still thinking, I'm seeing a movie, oh, something is moving fast, I have to add extra frames.
And so you get that jumpy speeding in the beginning. After a few seconds your eyes have told your brain it is already seeing the extra movement, so no adding is necessary. But your brain is so used to it, that it takes a while to "remember" not to add the extra images.

I think it is a very reasonable explanation, with what I have learned in school about the brain adding stuff your eyes can't see and making a complete picture in your mind, even when you don't see some things. (and I hope I have made myself clear, that's probably the hardest part Wink).



TintallŽ
Gondor


Jan 24 2013, 8:49pm

Post #20 of 47 (378 views)
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Me too! LOVED it! [In reply to] Can't Post

And I still am. I think HFR 3D is what has kept me going back over and over again.


Kimtc
Rohan


Jan 24 2013, 8:51pm

Post #21 of 47 (364 views)
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Didn't happen to me... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but I think my brain is slowing down.

Seriously, though, I thought HFR 3D was the most amazing thing ever, and if I could have seen it in that format in IMAX, I would have been a happy camper.


LordMaximus
Rivendell


Jan 24 2013, 8:52pm

Post #22 of 47 (363 views)
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Makes Sense [In reply to] Can't Post

I am interested now to see if I still get this if I see it again in 48 fps.

Maybe a screw driver is necessary to make a couple of adjustments to fix it...


Eruonen
Tol Eressea


Jan 24 2013, 9:01pm

Post #23 of 47 (362 views)
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Being the first to release a film at 48 fps qualifies him as a pioneer. [In reply to] Can't Post

I understand you don't like it, but you do acknowledge
it has its applications. This is all part of the "pioneering" of a technology. The film was also released in standard 24 fps 2d format as well so it was a consumer choice.

Personally, I did not have an issue with the new format, it was just different...brighter, deeper saturations etc. It is like saying you don't like plays because the viewing is too real. As far as losing the "fantasy", I think that is just a learning situation of when to edit certain scenes to preserve that look.

When Cameron comes out with Avatar in 60 fps he will probably hear the same things.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jan 24 2013, 9:01pm)


jtarkey
Rohan


Jan 24 2013, 9:03pm

Post #24 of 47 (370 views)
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It's a shame really... [In reply to] Can't Post

I still think there is room to advance practical effects until CGI is totally indistinguishable from real life.

In AUJ, you can tell where all the work went with the CGI. The things they spent a lot of time on look great, the things that they didn't...not so much. For me, a majority of the effects in LOTR look much better than The Hobbit. This isn't because of nostalgia for practical effects, this is because they combined so many different methods of special effects until I couldn't tell what was a miniature, what was CGI, what was a set...etc. It just made everything blend together nicely and feel very cohesive and believable. I can't say the same for AUJ,

It's also true that the 5k, 48fps, and 3D, made miniatures and a lot of practical effects impossible to do at all. Selling a film as believable is about hiding the things that are fake as best you can. Until EVERY SINGLE effect used in film is completely photo-realistic, you need to hide your films imperfections. Not put them on display for everyone to see.

It's like a magic trick. Is the magician going to let his audience see everything he is doing? No, because the trick isn't real.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


jtarkey
Rohan


Jan 24 2013, 9:08pm

Post #25 of 47 (351 views)
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You are right... [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess he's more of a pioneer for the use of 48fps in general, and not necessarily for narrative storytelling that includes sets and special effects.

I do think they should start releasing HFR 3D nature documentaries. THAT would be impressive. I guess my problems are more with effects than HFR. I just don't think they are up to that sort of scrutiny yet.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"

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