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very interesting questions!

elostirion74
Rohan

Jan 22 2013, 9:32pm


Views: 331
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very interesting questions! [In reply to] Can't Post

Questions part 2:
In what ways different? Do the differences lie in Aulë’s vague interpretation of the coming Children, or do they arise from his own characteristics (or both?)"

The differences lie in Aulë´s characteristics and his decision to strengthen the dwarves for future hardihood. The dwarves seem to be more coarse, more bound to the earth, but also tougher than Elves and Men. It´s only natural that the dwarves should share several of the characteristics of their maker and therefore the dwarves clearly are bound to and interested in working with stones, metals, mining and building. It´s also said that he made them hard and enduring to make them more able to resist Melkor´s influence, which is why they are tough and stubborn. The dwarves seem more protective of their knowledge and prone to adopt a possessive attitude towards their creations than their maker, though, compare the remarks about Aulë´s nature in chapter 1.

Questions part 3:
"Ilúvatar learns of Aulë’s creation and calls him on the carpet, suggesting not only that he has gone against the Grand Plan, but has created, and rather unethically so, inferior beings:

"Quote
“...therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being [i.e., Aulë’s own being], moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle.”

What do you make of this statement? A further association between Aulë and machinery/technology/craft? Are the Dwarves at this stage more like machines or more like slaves?"

I don´t see any association between Aulë and machinery in itself here, only an assertion of the fact that only by the will of Ilúvatar can a creature be given the power of independent life. Without Ilúvatar´s decision to give them independent life, the dwarves are like machines and pure extensions of Aulë´s will.


Questions part 4
"Aulë rationalizes his decision to make the Dwarves :
Quote
“ ...yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee.”
(A bit cheeky, no?) "

Isn´t it similar to Tolkien´s reasoning in his theory about sub-creation: we still make by the law that we were made..

Questions part 5:

Quote
“Eru is merciful. Now I see that thy heart rejoiceth, as indeed it may; for thou hast received not only forgiveness but bounty. Yet because thou hiddest this thought from me until its achievement, thy children will have little love for the things of my love. They will love first the things made by their hands, as doth their father. ...”
What is she saying? What are/is her emotions here? Jealousy? Fear? Worry? Anger? Something else?

I interpret her emotions as partly worry and fear that there will be yet another race which will have mastery over her works and partly a reminder to her husband (implied rebuke?) of the consequences of his keeping his thoughts secret from her.

Questions part 6:
"Why does Manwë have to consider Yavanna’s thoughts in order for them to be heard by Ilúvatar? Is it something in Yavanna’s nature that others must hold dominion over her (i.e., like the Children will hold over the plants and animals of her making?) "

As the lord of/chief among the Valar, it seems like it´s Manwe´s role to consult Ilúvatar and interpret his will. Yavanna is not treated differently from the other Valar here, Manwë has the same appointed role and particular understanding of the will/thought of Ilúvatar vis ŕ vis them.

I don´t see Ilúvatar, Aulë or Yavanna being dismissive towards Yavanna. What gives you that impression?
The conversation between Manwë and Yavanna only shows that a) there are aspects of the Grand Plan that Manwë has overlooked or has been less conscious of and b) that Yavanna´s thoughts and questions provide him with an imperative to gain new perspective. I can imagine Manwë´s mind having been more akin to that of Ulmo and Aulë and him being so preoccupied with shaping the basic structures of the Earth (sky, water, valleys/mountains and the fabric of the Earth), protecting that aspect of their work against Melkor, that he sometimes forgot to consider the importance of all the different living species in Middle Earth and how to protect them.

Last of all: Yavanna has the role of making the Two Trees of Valinor, the supreme symbol of the height of the bliss and beauty of this realm. How can holding such power be seen as being dismissed?

Aulë´s last words I only see as an expression of his practical thinking and an acknowledgement that the trees are also needed to provide for the dwarves as well as Men and Elves (either as energy or as material for building and making things), they do not exist solely for their beauty



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Subject User Time
The Silmarillion discussion: Of Aulë and Yavanna telain Send a private message to telain Jan 20 2013, 6:00pm
    I do like the last lines of this chapter ;-) FlyingSerkis Send a private message to FlyingSerkis Jan 20 2013, 9:36pm
        Aluë and Yavanna masinger Send a private message to masinger Jan 20 2013, 10:46pm
            now that you mention it... telain Send a private message to telain Jan 21 2013, 1:48pm
        what are Valar "children" anyway? telain Send a private message to telain Jan 21 2013, 1:33pm
    Dharma and Greg PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Jan 21 2013, 2:52pm
        of ethical creation telain Send a private message to telain Jan 22 2013, 8:25pm
            Counterfeit creatures noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 27 2013, 2:45pm
                I suspect counterfeit Dwarves are hobbits--beware!/ CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 28 2013, 3:38am
    Of Valar and Marriage Counseling CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 21 2013, 7:30pm
        that last line... telain Send a private message to telain Jan 23 2013, 8:30pm
            I'm going to jump on that comparison! FlyingSerkis Send a private message to FlyingSerkis Jan 23 2013, 9:25pm
                Great insights from both of you.// CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 23 2013, 9:36pm
                thanks! telain Send a private message to telain Jan 24 2013, 6:39pm
                    Noble goals, dropping it stylistically, selfishness and retrofitted Ents noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 24 2013, 10:16pm
                        Whateth dost thou speaketh of? telain Send a private message to telain Jan 24 2013, 10:59pm
                            Okay, back to Dwarves, or Telain complaineth to Eru CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 25 2013, 12:08am
                                absolutely no complaints here! telain Send a private message to telain Jan 27 2013, 12:45am
                                    Begging dwarves beggar belief? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 27 2013, 12:38pm
                                An Ent and a Dwarf walk into a bar (it has to be tried :) ) noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 27 2013, 1:30pm
                                    I like the 2nd one best./ CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 28 2013, 3:37am
                        Some passages are to be found in the original Silmarillion, and others ent, as you might say squire Send a private message to squire Jan 25 2013, 12:58pm
            The problem with Ents CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 24 2013, 6:01pm
                good points! telain Send a private message to telain Jan 24 2013, 6:44pm
            Yavanna is to Galadriel as who is to whom? CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 24 2013, 6:57pm
    very interesting questions! elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Jan 22 2013, 9:32pm
    Maiar of Aulë and Yavanna Aragalen the Green Send a private message to Aragalen the Green Jan 25 2013, 12:54am
        Superb connection!// CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 25 2013, 1:34am
            Then again, Yavanna... Aragalen the Green Send a private message to Aragalen the Green Jan 25 2013, 1:46am
                superb connection seconded! telain Send a private message to telain Jan 27 2013, 12:56am
                    Fall, Mortalty and the Machine noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 27 2013, 12:24pm
                        Creativity gone amiss CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 28 2013, 4:24am
                            Saruman! noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 28 2013, 5:26pm
                                Don't stop there with the editing CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 28 2013, 5:49pm
                                "creativity gone amiss" and sadly... telain Send a private message to telain Jan 28 2013, 5:57pm
                                    and on to the next chapter... noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Feb 3 2013, 5:08pm
    Insights from "Arda Reconstructed" CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 28 2013, 3:50am
        Interesting! telain Send a private message to telain Jan 28 2013, 5:38pm
    A long post went down the cyber-drain! sador Send a private message to sador Feb 7 2013, 2:51pm
        The writing is still very much JRRT's Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Feb 7 2013, 3:55pm

 
 
 

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