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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The Hobbit orcs vs. LOTR orcs
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YaznegSouth40
Rivendell

Jan 22 2013, 7:34pm

Post #1 of 32 (1580 views)
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The Hobbit orcs vs. LOTR orcs Can't Post

Of the orcs races we have seen in these movies (LOTR,Hobbit) and have read about in the books...which race of orc do you believe to be the most ELITE? I believe Sauron ultimately rules ALL of them..even though the ones in the Hobbit are pretty tribal and may act some on their own. That being said perhaps these (the Hobbit versions) are inferior overall to the ones from ...say Mordor, particularly the Black Uruks and Saruman's Uruk-hai. What do you all think?


MorgolKing
Rivendell

Jan 22 2013, 8:48pm

Post #2 of 32 (939 views)
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No question... [In reply to] Can't Post

Saruman's Uruk-hai appear to be hands down the most elite and strongest of the orcs we've seen to date.


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Jan 22 2013, 8:50pm

Post #3 of 32 (857 views)
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Genetically, it's the Uruk-hai [In reply to] Can't Post

as Saruman has bred them to overcome their aversion to sunlight - a weakness with the Orc race in general. But genetics aside, it depends who their leader is.

I think any pack of Orcs under Sauron's direction would be stronger than others as he is a Mair with Ages of experience in ruling (and he learned about despotic rule at the knee of Morgoth himself). A question I have is how much influence Sauron has over Orcs during the time of The Hobbit, given that he's still in hiding and not trying to attract attention, and possibly isn't entirely embodied just yet.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauronís master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jan 22 2013, 8:50pm

Post #4 of 32 (807 views)
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Saruman's Uruks [In reply to] Can't Post

seemed the strongest to me movie wise. I love the orcs in the Hobbit tho especially at the battle of Azablahblah Wink


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Jan 22 2013, 8:57pm

Post #5 of 32 (807 views)
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I've wondered that too. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
A question I have is how much influence Sauron has over Orcs during the time of The Hobbit, given that he's still in hiding and not trying to attract attention, and possibly isn't entirely embodied just yet.

I got the impression that they caused enough trouble on their own (waylaying travelers over the High Passes) but weren't really cohesively organized under one leader; and Thorin seemed to think he could reason with them, mainly the Great Goblin, when they were captured. Until they saw Orcrist!

In LOTR I think there are a couple of scenes where the Orcs didn't seem to be happy with their Flaming Eye Overlord, but more of dealing with a distasteful boss (and his goody-goody Nazgul) rather than outright hatred.

There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much.


YaznegSouth40
Rivendell

Jan 22 2013, 9:07pm

Post #6 of 32 (791 views)
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Ataahua, I believe.. [In reply to] Can't Post

that even though Sauron is not at full strength during his Necromancer guise..he still had enough power to submit the orcs of the region to his thraldom. The fact that Bolg is supposed to be there lends us to have to take into consideration this is possible. Also even before this time if you look at the timeline in the appendices..Sauron had sent some of his minions to Moria and other places. So he was certainly in the orc creating and breeding business even before the War of the Dwarves and Orcs in which Azog and his minions partook.


YaznegSouth40
Rivendell

Jan 22 2013, 9:21pm

Post #7 of 32 (864 views)
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Also from what I have researched... [In reply to] Can't Post

online it seems to be that the Black Uruks of Mordor were superior to Saruman's version. This can be true especially since they are probably more intelligent and are not as forced accelerated in breeding as the Isengarders were. Also ELITE Black Uruks supposedly were at Barad-dur itself as a last defense and gaurded the throne of Sauron. I do not know how much canon this is,but I can see how it would be possible as you would think Sauron would have a stronger breed closer to his disposal and Saruman would not surpass Sauron in skill of breeding Uruks. Saruman's whole army was inferior ...including his own fortress of Orthanc at Isengard. This is what I think. More thoughts?


MasterOrc
Rivendell


Jan 22 2013, 9:35pm

Post #8 of 32 (808 views)
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We'd also have to factor in...... [In reply to] Can't Post

the Orcs in LOTR were much better equipped because Sauron and Saruman were both building huge supplies of weaponry. While the Orcs in the Hobbit seem a little more wild in nature and dressed in anything that they could scrape up.. Personally, I like the wild look Sly


YaznegSouth40
Rivendell

Jan 22 2013, 10:15pm

Post #9 of 32 (744 views)
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Yeah..and I [In reply to] Can't Post

wonder if them being WILD makes them a tougher foe to deal with...at least in the regular ones..not "super ones" such as Azog or Bolg...who I think are not really of the run of the mill Gundabad kind...more of creations of Sauron sent to lead...thus a reason for their massive size and paleness.


Rostron2
Gondor


Jan 22 2013, 10:36pm

Post #10 of 32 (791 views)
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Gothmog said it best [In reply to] Can't Post

He was obviously overlooking his own deformity, but he'd say his orcs were the best. If you don't like it, he'd have them knock off a few heads to prove it.

Now, Saruman's were the best equipped, but they had no morale either.


YaznegSouth40
Rivendell

Jan 22 2013, 11:08pm

Post #11 of 32 (720 views)
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Yes MasterOrc.. [In reply to] Can't Post

the wild look is cool! And I believe Azog and Bolg are as I have said before...A "super" breed of orc bred by Sauron to lead common orcs...because they so far have no physical link to the other orcs in the Hobbit. They are huge and ultra powerful in comparison! Maybe the Bodygaurd of Bolg or Azog will be like them and in a sufficent number at the BO5A!


(This post was edited by YaznegSouth40 on Jan 22 2013, 11:09pm)


chrism628
Bree

Jan 22 2013, 11:13pm

Post #12 of 32 (718 views)
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Orcs of Barad Dur [In reply to] Can't Post

I recall reading somewhere that the orcs guarding Barad Dur or within that stronghold were the biggest and most powerful orcs to dwell on Middle-earth during the 3rd Age; something along those lines. Don't recall the source at the moment.


Retro315
Rivendell

Jan 23 2013, 2:46pm

Post #13 of 32 (532 views)
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RE [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a matter of iteration that of the whole, Saruman's Uruk-hai, which were bred last and "perfected" by someone who was "good" up until recently and had arcane knowledge, are the superior force of Orcs.

But that does not mean that there is no "Orc-royalty" or legendary-caliber Orcs, and I believe Azog and Bolg are examples of that. There are too few legendary Orcs. I suppose Golfinbul is another. (King of Gundabad, wasn't he?)

Nature is going to churn out a couple of real aces over the centuries. There's a quality of the Misty Mountain Orcs and Goblins - Azog is notable as a near-albino, but they're all pale. Mordor orcs, and Uruk-hai, forced to march all day, all day, all day in the sunlight have burnt, blackened, cancerous skin. Pale skin on a Mordor or Morgul Orc could almost practically indicate rank - they get to stay indoors more. At this point I equate color mostly with sun-exposure - since they're genetically mutilated Elves, one assumes the race starts pale, and being sickly and twisted, their pallor becomes worse.

I think Azog is capable of being from a superior tribe of Orcs because his leadership came to being from natural selection - survival of the fittest. Saruman's elite force (in the films) is too unified for any kind of natural diversity over centuries to create some freak monster Orc-kings.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jan 23 2013, 4:37pm

Post #14 of 32 (508 views)
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SInce we are including the books as well as the films... [In reply to] Can't Post

Allow me to point out that the Uruk-kai originated with Sauron, not the White Wizard. We can speculate that the Dark Lord aided film-Saruman in devising a way to alchemically produce his own Uruk-kai.

So, should we consider the larger 'wild' goblins we see in The Hobbit films to be what Gandalf would call 'hobgoblins'?

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Rostron2
Gondor


Jan 23 2013, 5:56pm

Post #15 of 32 (496 views)
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That makes sense [In reply to] Can't Post

Hobgoblins could be the larger, bolder types.

Tolkien was also a linguist. Since elves developed the first written languages, the word orc seems to derive from the elven word for orc, a more generic term. Goblin and hobgoblin seem more like Common tongue usage for orcs, and hence interchangeable. There are certainly sub-species, or at least 'cultural' groups, like Uruk-Hai.


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Jan 23 2013, 7:06pm

Post #16 of 32 (479 views)
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You know what? [In reply to] Can't Post

In all these years, I hadn't realised that.


In Reply To
Allow me to point out that the Uruk-kai originated with Sauron, not the White Wizard.



You learn something every day.

So when Saruman made his own Uruk-hai, cross-breeding Goblins with Men, did he follow Sauron's recipe or did he tweak it to build sun-resistence into the breed?

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauronís master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jan 23 2013, 8:36pm

Post #17 of 32 (477 views)
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In the books, at least... [In reply to] Can't Post

Sauron bred the Uruk-hai and Saruman recruited them into his service (presumably with Sauron's approval).

What Saruman actually bred were the more human-like Half-orcs. It has been long-speculated that Bill Ferny's 'Southron' friend in Bree was actually a Half-orc agent.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


YaznegSouth40
Rivendell

Jan 23 2013, 8:57pm

Post #18 of 32 (476 views)
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Retro315...that is [In reply to] Can't Post

EXACTLY what I was getting at! Every you said is what I was alluding to and you hit it on the head PERFECTLY! Azog and Bolg are a very elite breed that probably do not exist by the time of the war of the ring...now there still were probably some elite breeds Sauron created that gaurded his throne in Barad-dur.


(This post was edited by YaznegSouth40 on Jan 23 2013, 8:59pm)


YaznegSouth40
Rivendell

Jan 23 2013, 9:01pm

Post #19 of 32 (479 views)
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While on the topic of Azog and his ilk [In reply to] Can't Post

do you all think that Azog is more a menace or will be depicted as such MORE than Bolg or vise versa? Who's stronger?


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Jan 23 2013, 10:40pm

Post #20 of 32 (440 views)
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I've clearly been away from the books way too long! / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauronís master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Elthir
Gondor

Jan 23 2013, 11:10pm

Post #21 of 32 (465 views)
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Uruks versus Uruk-hai [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with most of your post but some (not me but some) seem to think that Sauron's Uruks are different from Saruman's Uruk-hai.


Also I would say that there are (generally speaking) two 'kinds' of Half-orcs: meaning some look human enough to work as spies with others being the man-high goblin faced Half-orcs that Merry describes in the books.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jan 23 2013, 11:28pm

Post #22 of 32 (444 views)
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Film-universe notwithstanding... [In reply to] Can't Post

Urik, as it is used at the time of the War of the Ring, is just the singular of Uruk-hai. In its original useage, uruk was the word in the Black Speech that (like orc) was derived from the Elvish word orch (plural: yrch).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jan 24 2013, 12:41am

Post #23 of 32 (684 views)
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Golfimbul, Great Goblin, Azog and Bolg - Great Orcs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien hinted at a greater Orc variant that preceded the Uruk-hai and may have been distict from hobgoblins--creatures descended from evil spirits or weaker Maiar that took on an Orkish shape to serve Morgoth. The Great Goblin and his kin may have been this type of Great Orc.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Elthir
Gondor

Jan 24 2013, 2:54am

Post #24 of 32 (423 views)
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the argument [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you mean uruk (not urik), and I agree there is no difference between Uruks and Uruk-hai...

...but some others think that Saruman's Uruk-hai have mannish blood, while Sauron's Uruks do not (or do not necessarily have mannish blood), even despite the meaning of Uruk-hai 'Orc-folk'...

... and these some think that Tolkien purposely used Black Speech Uruk-hai to reference Saruman's lads only (even including the example of Uruk-hai in The Land of Shadow if I recall correctly).

Again it's not my argument but I stumbled across a 100 page thread on it at another forum!


Lio
Lorien


Jan 24 2013, 3:04am

Post #25 of 32 (486 views)
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Movie Orc Races [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm going to stick to just the movie Orcs here, as mixing up the book and film stuff might be confusing if/when they contradict each other. Crazy So, off the top of my head, here's what we have:

  • Moria Goblins (as seen in FotR, the little green bug-eyed ones)
  • Goblin-town Goblins (self-explanatory Tongue)
  • Saruman's Uruk-hai (Lurtz & company)
  • Uruks of Mordor (Shagrat & company)
  • Gundabad Orcs (Azog & Bolg, others?)
  • Other/Common Orcs (everyone from Grishnakh to Gothmog, but there could be more than one race here as well)

Have I missed any? Anyway, at the time of FotR I believe that Saruman's Uruks were intended to be the strongest type of Orc since he had recently "perfected" them.

I do wonder about Azog and Bolg though. Are they representative of the Gundabad Orcs, or just unusually large/strong individuals? I believe that in the flashback scene there were others like them in the battle: big white Orcs. (But I'm not too sure since it went by so fast.) It is interesting that by the present time in The Hobbit, the Orcs Azog leads appear to be of the "common" variety. Could Azog and Bolg be the last of their kind? Shocked Or will we see more of them later on?

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