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a.s.
Valinor
Dec 4 2007, 12:29am
Post #1 of 17
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Chapter 7: In The House of Tom B--The Threshold
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Welcome to the House of Tom Bombadillo. We have ended our last chapter standing at the front door with the hobbits:
“And with that song the hobbits stood upon the threshold, and a golden light was all about them."
And now the hobbits step over the threshold and into the house itself:
"The four hobbits stepped over the wide stone threshold, and stood still, blinking"
The emphasis of having one chapter end and another begin on the threshold of the doorway to the House of Tom Bombadil is an interesting one. For a point of reference, let's begin with some definitions of the word "threshold":
· the starting point for a new state or experience; "on the threshold of manhood"
· the smallest detectable sensation
· doorway: the entrance (the space in a wall) through which you enter or leave a room or building; the space that a door can close; "he stuck his head in the doorway"
· doorsill: the sill of a door; a horizontal piece of wood or stone that forms the bottom of a doorway and offers support when passing through a doorway
· brink: a region marking a boundary
Many myths (or, as I understand Joseph Campbell anyway, all myths) have a point where the hero passes a threshold of some kind. While this isn't the first threshold our heroes have crossed (for instance, they crossed an important one when the gate to the Old Forest clicked behind them), they are about to enter a very strange and dreamlike place.
As noted in that Wikipedia entry, the hero is often met at this point by a threshold guardian, someone who will test or somehow otherwise ensure that the hero is worthy of crossing over into...whatever the threshold is the entry to. An obstacle to the hero's journey, in other words. "Some classic examples of Threshold Guardians are Charon the boatman of the river styx, or Cerberus that guards Hades" (cite here).
In an interesting short essay in the Greenbooks section of Torn, there is a discussion of this concept, in which the guardian doesn't serve as an obstacle but rather as a helper to the hero:
"Each time Frodo and Sam begin another stage of their journey, they encounter one or more threshold guardians. At first these are archetypal parents, people who possess more power and wisdom than the hero does at this stage of his development. They offer a temporary place of safety where the hobbits can relax and put the responsibility on someone else for a while. These figures warn about dangers ahead and give gifts to help the hobbits on their way. They cannot stay within the parental protection and fulfill the quest, however. They must leave Tom Bombadil and Goldberry’s home and journey into the Wild, leave Elrond in Rivendell and venture south across Hollin to Moria."
1) Thresholds are very important features of many fairy tales, myths and legends, and fantasy stories. For instance, Alice's mirror and the Wardrobe that leads to Narnia. Can you name any others?
2) What other thresholds are apparent in LOTR? How do they compare to this threshold? And for which heroes are they important?
3) Leaving aside just "what" Goldberry is for the moment, is Goldberry a threshold guardian? If so, what sort of guardian role does she play here?
There is also the concept of liminality:
"LIMINAL (Latin limin, "threshold"): A liminal space is a blurry boundary zone between two established and clear spatial areas, and a liminal moment is a blurry boundary period between two segments of time. Most cultures have special rituals, customs, or markers to indicate the transitional nature of such liminal spaces or liminal times. Examples include boundary stones, rites of passage, high school graduations, births, deaths, marriages, carrying the bride over the threshold, etc. These special markers may involve elaborate ceremonies (wedding vows), special wardrobe (mortarboard caps and medieval scholar's gown), or unusual taboos (the custom of not seeing the bride before the wedding). Liminal zones feature strongly in folklore, mythology, and Arthurian legend." 4) Are the hobbits in a liminal space at this moment? Just what are they crossing over into, once they step over the doorsill into the House of Tom Bombadil? next: Goldberry a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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Curious
Half-elven
Dec 4 2007, 2:12am
Post #2 of 17
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I've always had problems with the Hero's Journey.
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It seems like a mold in which you can fit any myth or fantasy, but to what end? What does it prove? I would much rather focus on the story at hand.
Yes, many tales have threshholds, especially between the mundane and the magical. Tolkien has had several such moments already, what with locking up Bag End, crossing the Brandywine, leaving Buckland, and now entering Bombadil's house. We might also count Sam leaving the area of the Shire where he had spent his whole life, the moment when the hobbits enter the Elves feast hall in the woods, the departure from the path in Woody End, and the entries to Maggot's farm house and Crickhollow. And there are many more to come.
Every time they cross a river, enter a woods, pass through a door, or come to a crossroads, Tolkien tends to make a big deal out of it. Middle-earth tends to have clear borders, and every crossing is an adventure, every new land strange and often distrustful of near neighbors.
Goldberry is compared and contrasted to a fairy queen, and found to have much more in common with the hobbits than someone like Galadriel. She is no exile from Valinor, but an integral part of this land. She will remain after Galadriel leaves. And she performs a service for the hobbits, a cleansing on her "washing day."
Yes, the doorway into Bombadil's house is liminal space. Bombadil's house is clearly not a part of the Old Forest. There's a well trimmed clearing all around the house, it's higher than the forest, and on the other side are the Barrow Downs. So the hobbits are leaving an unsafe space and entering a safe space. These safe spaces appear unexpectedly all the way Ithilien, but not beyond.
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Penthe
Gondor
Dec 4 2007, 7:07am
Post #3 of 17
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I actually love the descriptions of Tom's house, and the first entry of the hobbits through the door sets the scene so beautifully. Inside is light, warmth and beauty. The hobbits are beginning to appreciate the value of these things for perhaps the first time. Before this they have taken for granted that they have their own comforts. The Elves that Pippin, Sam and Frodo met in the Shire introduce an other-wordly feel to the narrative, but Tom and Goldberry introduce a very magical this-worldly feeling.
Tom's house seems much more perfect than Rivendell to me.
I quite like cheese, you know.
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Owlyross
Rohan
Dec 4 2007, 1:11pm
Post #4 of 17
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I'm coming round to the idea that the Old Forest (Bombadil included) is a buffer zone between the quasi-Victorian England fantasy-world of the Hobbits and the Medieval fantasy world occupied by the rest of Middle Earth. The transition is possibly why no Hobbits ever seem to leave the Shire, and can go some way towards explaining the anachronisms we see in the Shire (in theory, Bree also has anachronisms, but is more medieval imho).
The Forest was an important motif in Germanic folklore and here it is transitional, and also transformational, just as Mirkwood was for Bilbo in the Hobbit. And I would guess that is linked up with the German tradition of the Forest as a coming of age, it was surrounding and all-pervasive, and people who went into the forest and returned were changed in one way, because it was usually a life-changing experience, one of the Wildernesses of Europe. For the Hobbits the Forest functions as it does for the Germanic people, a dangerous place, full of anger and evil beasts, and anyone entering and not returning immediately is given up for dead (as Bilbo and the four travellers are.
Dangerous as it is, the forest is "the place where society's conventions no longer hold true. It is the source of natural right, thus the starting place where social wrongs can be righted," wrote Jack Zipes in his book The Brothers Grimm: From Enchanted Forests to the Modern World (1988). The
"old German forests" are mythical places in German cultural history where "the essential truths about German customs, laws, and culture could be found...."
So I've not answered any of your questions (typical), but rather tried to explain my idea of the Old Forest as a threshold to Middle Earth.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Benjamin Franklin
The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
Horace Walpole (1717 - 1797)
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visualweasel
Rohan
Dec 4 2007, 4:40pm
Post #5 of 17
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Love the questions being in red!
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No time for answers at the moment, but I just wanted to comment that putting the questions in red was really helpful to me. :)
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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weaver
Half-elven
Dec 4 2007, 6:05pm
Post #6 of 17
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Tolkien really didn't know where he was headed with the tale at various times, and it seems to me that certain places he takes Frodo are partly a result of "him", the author, needing to find a framework in which his creative process could find the next thread of the story.
The whole ending of the Old Forest chapter to me has a much different tone than the rest of it -- there's a certain rhythm to it that's different, and I once tried to make the claim on this board that it's a point where you can see Tolkien "trusting the story to tell itself". (Not many agreed with me, as I recall!). But I do think it was a place where his writing sort of took off, and deposited him, along with the hobbits at a place where he could start to play with the story on a deeper level. Tom is a character, device or sort of packaging that Tolkien was familiar with, and it makes sense that Tolkien might turn to him to help figure things out.
A similar sort of thing happens later, when Tolkien describes how Faramir entered the tale -- "there he was striding out of Ithilien". Tolkien was not sure he needed him or even wanted him, but he "liked him", and it is in the Faramir chapters that Tolkien is able to work out the Numenor angle of the story into the rest of things.
In that case, Tolkien came up with a "new" character as a focal point to introduce some new elements; Tom is the counterpart to this, for me, in this earlier part of the story.
While I don't write fiction, I do write grants, so part of me is fascinated by looking at LOTR from the perspective of the writing process.
Not to hijack your thread, a.s. -- I really like your questions and approach to this chapter -- but I know there are a few writers among us, and I would be curious to know from you, especially, about whether or not you see the visit to Tom as an essential part of Tolkien's creative process.
Weaver
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Dec 4 2007, 6:18pm
Post #7 of 17
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of something my sister said recently, at one of our writers' group meetings. She does dreamwork (which means helping people analyse their dreams as a way of learning about themselves) and she says writing fiction often comes from the same place in the brain as dreams do. The Old Forest chapter certainly has that feeling.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Letters from the Goddess
Firithyleleni
 
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Penthe
Gondor
Dec 5 2007, 12:05am
Post #8 of 17
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That's very interesting Weaver. While I do enjoy joining in the Tom-baiting from time to time, I think you've really hit on the value of his role in terms of the development of the narrative. It's odd, though, that Faramir became so central to later events, while Tom vanishes until after all the events are finished. As you say, he's a starter and an ender, not a participant.
I suspect quite a lot of those developmental moments are later edited out of many books. One of the great wonders of Tolkien is that he kept so many traces of development in the final text. That's why there's so much fun in forensically studying Tolkien's papers compared to many other authors, I think.
I quite like cheese, you know.
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a.s.
Valinor
Dec 5 2007, 12:46am
Post #9 of 17
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is it liminal, or is it other?
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Yes, the doorway into Bombadil's house is liminal space. Bombadil's house is clearly not a part of the Old Forest. There's a well trimmed clearing all around the house, it's higher than the forest, and on the other side are the Barrow Downs. So the hobbits are leaving an unsafe space and entering a safe space. These safe spaces appear unexpectedly all the way Ithilien, but not beyond.
I agree that the house serves as one of Frodo's "safe places", and Tom as one of his "rescuers". And that these are recurrent themes in LOTR (danger/safety; enemies/unlooked for friends).
But is Tom's house a "space between", or is Tom's house an "other place"? Is it a real place? Is his house always there? Do all visitors leaving that part of the Old Forest and walking the way the hobbits did, encounter the House of Tom Bombadil?
Wait, don't answer. We're going to discuss the What and How of the House in an upcoming thread!!
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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a.s.
Valinor
Dec 5 2007, 12:50am
Post #10 of 17
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Tom's house seems much more perfect than Rivendell to me
"He stood as he had at times stood enchanted by fair elven-voices; but the spell that was now laid upon him was different: less keen and lofty was the delight, but deeper and nearer to mortal heart; marvellous and yet not strange."
Yes, I agree with you and Frodo!!
(I also wish I could learn to use commas, semi-colons, and colons all in one sentence that way!!)
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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a.s.
Valinor
Dec 5 2007, 12:54am
Post #11 of 17
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yes, you answered 1 and 2! and also
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you sent me on a quest to learn more about Forests in Germanic folklore! So, that's a good thing in and of itself, the quest for knowledge.
Who knows where it might lead? And whither then? I cannot say.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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a.s.
Valinor
Dec 5 2007, 1:10am
Post #12 of 17
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hijack away! it only adds to the discussion
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IMHO.
Not to hijack your thread, a.s. -- I really like your questions and approach to this chapter -- but I know there are a few writers among us, and I would be curious to know from you, especially, about whether or not you see the visit to Tom as an essential part of Tolkien's creative process.
I once tried to make the claim on this board that it's a point where you can see Tolkien "trusting the story to tell itself". (Not many agreed with me, as I recall!). But I do think it was a place where his writing sort of took off, and deposited him, along with the hobbits at a place where he could start to play with the story on a deeper level. Tom is a character, device or sort of packaging that Tolkien was familiar with, and it makes sense that Tolkien might turn to him to help figure things out.
Well, I do agree with you that Tom is essential here, to both Tolkien's creative process in writing the LOTR and to the story as it developed. It's almost a chicken/egg question, because obviously Tom predates LOTR and doesn't really "fit"...and yet something about Tom was so compelling to Tolkien that he used him in the story and this took on wider ramifications. The mere inclusion became a way for Tolkien to tell something essential about ME, in some way, as he wrote and worked it all out. A framework, just as you say, upon which Tolkien laid out ideas from his mind into some kind of pattern...and yet, even as he was doing this they changed and grew and developed. As the very act of doing that, using a framework and just trusting to the process, is bound to make you shift the pattern as it develops, too.
In some ways, this is one of the most interesting chapters in the entire book. Strange and magical in a way unlike most everything or everyplace else.
I know in my small experience, as a sort of learning story writer, that what I begin with and what I end up with are never exactly the same. I sort of come to know the character as I write. And Tolkien, who had so many deeply held ideas about language and ancient times and the beginnings of things...he must have--just as you say--simply started to trust that the story was going to flow out of the mix of character and concept he had brewing in his brain.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 5 2007, 3:50am
Post #13 of 17
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In HoME you can almost see Tolkien's thought processes as he's writing it! It's part-written out, part-sketch of the narrative.
The Hobbits were to have spent one night there, including dreams; but as soon as this was down on paper, Tolkien realized they needed a "rainy day" during which they could tell Tom their adventures so far, and which would allow him to talk with them about many things, and advise them.
Yes, the story does get deeper from here! The rainy day spent at the House is a liminal moment. The Hobbits are transitioning between their known world (Shire, Old Forest) into the unknown world, between the simpler adversities and the more life-threatening ones (query: was Old Man Willow liminal?). They need this moment to learn the history of the world they are about to enter, so that they will come to understand its vastness, and their place in it.
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Penthe
Gondor
Dec 5 2007, 3:57am
Post #14 of 17
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I think Tolkien's punctuation is individualistic rather than a paragon of correctness.
I quite like cheese, you know.
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Owlyross
Rohan
Dec 5 2007, 9:23am
Post #15 of 17
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There are dissertations, essays, studies and much more out there... Hansel and Gretel, Little Red Riding Hood, the Legend of Sleepy Hollow, Elves, Dwarves, Pixies, they all come from Germanic and Scandinavian folklore and are all intrinsically tied to the forest. People mythologise what they don't understand, and in "barbarian" times, the Germanic people didn't understand the forest, and were scared of it.
Start here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_folklore and you'll see things we recognise and have been discussing such as the Erlking, elves and dwarves.
And
Germanic tribes think of temples as being unsuitable habitations for gods, and they do not represent them as idols in human shape. Instead of temples, they consecrate woods or groves to individual gods.
So the importance of the woodland is clear.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Benjamin Franklin
The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
Horace Walpole (1717 - 1797)
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a.s.
Valinor
Dec 6 2007, 12:19pm
Post #16 of 17
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huh; good, I have trouble with those things: commas, I mean
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a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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Kethry
Lorien
Dec 7 2007, 4:51pm
Post #17 of 17
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I so want to participate in these discussions in a more timely manner, but better late then never, I suppose. I've my notes for a response sketched out since Tuesday, but they all of a sudden expect me to work at work! The nerve!
Anyway, on to the questions. It seems that any time we have a conversation about myths and the typical methods and ways of using them in stories, we always find out how the professor used them, but differently than anyone else, just as the essay pointed out. So he certainly knew how to use the typical aspects of a myth and a quest, and he often found new and interesting ways of using them. I like how the guardians of these thresholds are different than expected.
2) What other thresholds are apparent in LOTR? How do they compare to this threshold? And for which heroes are they important?
Galadriel seems to be more of the typical guardian, as I understand it. She tests them all, and only later does she give guidance and counsel. And this test applies to all of the company, while at Tom's house, it focused more on Frodo.
The gate of Moria, and the watcher in the water. An obvious threshold, being around a doorway and all, but with a definite test and more of a physical challenge than the mental one of figuring out the password.
As for liminality, it's not a set space or amount of time, right? The day spent in Ithilien strikes me as maybe a cross between a liminal space and a threshold. They cross into a land that is so different than where they just were, and when they leave it, they re-enter dangerous and abandoned lands, and somewhere in there they meet many guardians, specifically Faramir, who not only tests them, but also offers guidance and protection.
"Any kind of plan where you lose your hat... is a bad plan."
'But it does not seem that I can trust anyone,' said Frodo.
Sam looked at him unhappily. 'It all depends on what you want,' put in Merry. 'You can trust us to stick to you through thick and thin - to the bitter end. And you can trust us to keep any secret of yours - closer than you keep it yourself. But you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone, and go off without a word. We are your friends, Frodo.'
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