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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
How will this line of dialogue from FOTR now fit in? ***spoilers!!***
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Loresilme
Valinor


Jan 20 2013, 2:14pm

Post #1 of 32 (1421 views)
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How will this line of dialogue from FOTR now fit in? ***spoilers!!*** Can't Post

In FOTR when Gandalf and Elrond are in Rivendell discussing what do about the Ring, Elrond says:


"This peril belongs to all middle earth. They must decide now how to end it. The time of the Elves is over - my people are leaving these shores. Who will you look to when we've gone? The Dwarves? They hide in their mountains seeking riches - they care nothing for the troubles of others.


The last few lines about the dwarves originally helped in introducing the dwarves overall and setting up the issues between Legolas and Gimli, however TH prequel(s) might put a whole new slant on it. On the one hand,
new viewers who are watching the 6 films in order will have just spent 3 movies becoming very attached to the Dwarves and appreciative of their history and civilization, and in particular are going to still be really hurting over the loss of Thorin, Fili and Kili, and so these words might seem seem harsh and one-sided. On the other hand, given the events of the BOFA, and depending on the ways in which the film makers choose to depict those events, these comments might instead be given more meaning and justification.

Any thoughts,comments - or as Roheryn would say, funny noises Wink?








bborchar
Rohan

Jan 20 2013, 2:27pm

Post #2 of 32 (641 views)
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Not sure that this is an inconsistency... [In reply to] Can't Post

Elrond's an elf, and he has a (rightly or wrongly) preconceived notion about how dwarves act. I also recall (although I think it was only in the book) Gimli saying that he wished he could bring a bunch of his kin to fight, and Legolas saying that it would probably come to their door. In the books, Sauron moved an entire army to defeat Erebor, and then move onto Mirkwood. This obviously went awry with Sauron fell, though.


FlyingSerkis
Rivendell


Jan 20 2013, 3:17pm

Post #3 of 32 (551 views)
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We might think that Elrond's being a bit of a downer [In reply to] Can't Post

But I think, after seeing the Hobbit films, we'll understand where Elrond is coming from, even if he is making a fairly bold and damning generalisation. The dwarves throughout the Hobbit probably show no interest in others' affairs, only their own mountain and even their own riches. I think the line is simply in consistence with the now established dwarven-elvish angst.

[somewhat poorly disguised, non-family friendly bit, edited out]

Then Manw and Yavanna parted for that time, and Yavanna returned to Aul; and he was in his smithy, pouring molten metal into a mould. 'Eru is bountiful,' she said. 'Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril.'

'Nonetheless they will have need of wood,' said Aul, and he went on with his smith-work.


(This post was edited by Altaira on Jan 20 2013, 6:18pm)


FlyingSerkis
Rivendell


Jan 20 2013, 3:18pm

Post #4 of 32 (533 views)
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I have a feeling there is a line in the films along those lines [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I also recall (although I think it was only in the book) Gimli saying that he wished he could bring a bunch of his kin to fight, and Legolas saying that it would probably come to their door.


Might be EE only.

Then Manw and Yavanna parted for that time, and Yavanna returned to Aul; and he was in his smithy, pouring molten metal into a mould. 'Eru is bountiful,' she said. 'Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril.'

'Nonetheless they will have need of wood,' said Aul, and he went on with his smith-work.


Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


Jan 20 2013, 3:27pm

Post #5 of 32 (499 views)
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Your subject line made me LOL [In reply to] Can't Post

but in seriousness, I think it'll become clear by TABA indeed. I -can't- wait for the level of corruption that we'll witness CoolCoolCool

--I'm a victim of Bifurcation--
__________________________________________

Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!
__________________________________________


Bladerunner
Gondor


Jan 20 2013, 4:32pm

Post #6 of 32 (463 views)
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I've been thinking about that same line lately as well. [In reply to] Can't Post

and when I saw your post title, I immediately sensed that it would be about that exact quote from Elrond.

That line is interesting especially in light of how differently Elrond interacted with Thorin during his stop in Rivendell.
In other words, based on this earlier interaction, it would have been more likely for such a negative sentiment in Fellowship of the Ring to have come from Legolas as Thranduil's proxy, but not from Elrond.

It's also interesting that in the Two Towers film, King Theoden also indirectly expresses similar sentiment about not only the dwarves but the elves as well, and even about Gondor to an extent.

I never really was comfortable with any of these negative interpretations as portrayed in the films, because they downplayed what was supposed to really be happening (at least during this period of the Third Age), which was that everyone was under attack, and that each race and kingdom was actually trying to come together as best as its circumstances would allow.

It may be difficult to reconcile that attitude about the dwarves (at least after the Battle of Five Armies) but we'll see how the films address it.



Slim
Rivendell


Jan 20 2013, 4:36pm

Post #7 of 32 (453 views)
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That's why... [In reply to] Can't Post

people should only watch movies in release order Wink


andwise
Rivendell

Jan 20 2013, 6:07pm

Post #8 of 32 (409 views)
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elronds line [In reply to] Can't Post

Surely this line will mean just the same as it did before.elrond says it because it is true of the dwarves,more so from an Elvish point of view! Just because Bilbo has been on his adventure with the dwarves does not make any difference to the relationship between elves and dwarves,and quite right too as it stays true to the book.


MasterOrc
Rivendell


Jan 20 2013, 7:02pm

Post #9 of 32 (375 views)
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Considering how... [In reply to] Can't Post

rudely he was addressed by Thorin in the AUJ when Elrond mentioned knowing Thor, I can understand why Elrond would be...Crazy


Arannir
Valinor

Jan 20 2013, 7:30pm

Post #10 of 32 (361 views)
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It still makes sense... [In reply to] Can't Post

... since Thorin/Elrond did not have such a pleasant meeting in AUJ and Thorin's attitude will almost lead to a battle between the Free Peoples (of course it is not purely his fault, but I guess there will be some Elf bias ;) ).


Hanzkaz
Rohan

Jan 20 2013, 8:31pm

Post #11 of 32 (351 views)
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Even in the LOTR movies - [In reply to] Can't Post

- we know there are still issues between the 'good' races.

Elrond probably considers Elves to be more reliable. We know he doesn't have complete faith in Men, either.

___________________________________________________


From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.



Loresilme
Valinor


Jan 20 2013, 10:07pm

Post #12 of 32 (317 views)
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Yes, from the Elves' perspective [In reply to] Can't Post

it's a pretty consistent viewpoint. I'm kind of wondering how it's going to sound though to viewers who might come to FOTR only after seeing TH films and spending all that time seeing the situation from the dwarves' viewpoint first. Unless of course the way BOFA is played out, will reinforce Elrond's viewpoint.


Loresilme
Valinor


Jan 20 2013, 10:17pm

Post #13 of 32 (284 views)
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We probably will [In reply to] Can't Post

understand why Elrond, as an Elf, would have that opinion by the time we get to FOTR. It will be interesting to see though if the audience will share his opinion, or will see it from the dwarves' perspective instead or from Thorin's perspective, because we really don't even know if Thorin's perspective (that they were betrayed, that no one helped them when they needed it) is shared by all the dwarves, or if that's just the way he sees it.

Kind of interesting to mull over :-)!


Loresilme
Valinor


Jan 20 2013, 10:38pm

Post #14 of 32 (275 views)
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lol "GMTA" [In reply to] Can't Post

(Great Minds Think Alike :-))

Your mention of Elrond's friendlier attitude towards them in AUJ has got me thinking, it probably will be then, that in the BOFA events, the dwarves are going to be portrayed in a very negative light indeed - and so then Elrond's (change of?) opinion in FOTR would be based on their actions there. It's not really going to make sense, unless they portray them, or perhaps, just Thorin, as behaving badly enough to turn Elrond so sour on them later on. It will be in alignment if that's the way they go with it.

It's going to be interesting to see how they handle it :-)!


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 20 2013, 11:26pm

Post #15 of 32 (285 views)
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But Thorin couldn't even get help for his quest from other dwarves. [In reply to] Can't Post

When he shows up to the meeting at Bag End, he's just come from a meeting with all his kin and they refuse to come help, apparently even Dain. Now, we know Dain will show up at the end but it remains to be seen if we get a hint of his motivation to do so. Is he just coming to share the wealth after Smaug is dead, or to move into Erebor (13 dwarves isn't enough to populate the Lonely Mountain), or because he gets wind of the goblin army, or does he just feel bad about not helping and changes his mind? We don't know yet.

But the fact remains that the dwarves don't seem to be very inclined to altruism and risking themselves to help others, instead they take a defensive, protective posture and hold on to what they have. When they got wind of Sauron's rise and search for the Ring, Gimli gets sent with a message and to find out what is going on, but not necessarily an offer of help beyond that. Gimli joins the Fellowship on his own account, and although he says he would like to bring an army of his people to the cause, he would still have had to convince them to come - but as Legolas says, they would have been too busy defending their own homes to come to the aid of others, even if they could be convinced.

I think Elrond has cause for what he says. And he's not singling out dwarves - he thinks Men won't be much help either. And I'm sure if he'd thought it relevant, he could have added Ents (who took a lot of persuasion from a personal Hobbit delegation to fight even on their own account) and Eagles (how many arguments would have been prevented if only he *had* mentioned them? Wink) to the list. Inter-race politics in Middle-earth has always been a bit tricky.

Silverlode






Loresilme
Valinor


Jan 20 2013, 11:44pm

Post #16 of 32 (251 views)
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Very so [In reply to] Can't Post

By this point he doesn't have a very good opinion of Men either!


Loresilme
Valinor


Jan 21 2013, 12:24am

Post #17 of 32 (273 views)
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So is Thorin's perspective possibly not valid then? [In reply to] Can't Post

In TH (speaking of the film only) so far we have a very worthy and noble-seeming Thorin who is holding a grudge against the Elves because they 'betrayed' his father and grandfather and 'did nothing' when the dwarves needed help. So the film makers, so far, have presented Thorin in such a way that has the audience on his side, and thinking that his perspective is a true one.

However, we haven't actually heard any of the dwarves echoing that sentiment. And to your point, even the other dwarves are not signing up to help him now.

So ... aside from the dragon sickness angle, it will be interesting, in terms of Thorin's character arc, to also see if there are any revelations in the next two films that shed a different light on the events he's bitter about, and in that light the audience starts to see Thorin differently even before the dragon sickness takes hold of him.

And also, whether that will encompass seeing all the dwarves differently in that way. And too - that's true about Dain, we don't even know yet in what light his character will be shown. But there will have to be some way to keep the audience emotionally invested in the dwarves while at the same time showing the lead up to and the events of the BOFA.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 21 2013, 2:34am

Post #18 of 32 (249 views)
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Well, frankly, fighting a dragon is a suicide mission. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think I can blame anyone for not wanting to join Thorin's little raiding party. As Elrond says, it is not wise (and it only succeeds through one of those eucatastrophes which mean it was Meant).

And here's a thought regarding Thranduil's refusal to help. Perhaps he just showed up too late. If he had arrived with his army before Smaug got inside the Mountain, they might well have had a chance to fight him. But once Smaug got inside....do you really see an army charging in through the doors in the face of a wall of dragon fire? It was too late to fight him then. I would think a dragon could be attacked in the open, where you could deploy diversionary tactics and long distance weapons and all....but in a cavern, even one the size of the halls of Erebor? No, that's a forlorn hope.

In my mind, Thorin doesn't have a good case to hate Thranduil for not fighting Smaug (though emotions don't always follow logic)...but for not helping the refugees, yes there he has very good cause for resentment. Thranduil might have offered some assistance to the fleeing dwarves, but he turned away entirely and left them to find their own way across Wilderland. If they take that approach in any conversations between Thranduil and Thorin, I will be well pleased.

Thorin's resentment is not completely unfounded; there's enough truth in his complaint to keep the sympathy of the audience but he's spent years brooding on that betrayal and I'd be willing to bet it now goes way beyond the reasonable and into irrational hatred...and that irrationality is going to begin to surface in Thranduil's halls and get worse all the way through the end. And we will see that through Bilbo's eyes, as he has just established a good relationship with Thorin only to watch it destroyed under the strain of Thorin's festering resentments. If Thorin resents Thranduil's betrayal of his people, just think how he will resent Bilbo's personal betrayal with the Arkenstone. His passions will undo him.

Silverlode






Gelir
Bree

Jan 21 2013, 3:06am

Post #19 of 32 (240 views)
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Just what I was going to say [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
In my mind, Thorin doesn't have a good case to hate Thranduil for not fighting Smaug (though emotions don't always follow logic)...but for not helping the refugees, yes there he has very good cause for resentment. Thranduil might have offered some assistance to the fleeing dwarves, but he turned away entirely and left them to find their own way across Wilderland. If they take that approach in any conversations between Thranduil and Thorin, I will be well pleased.


I was just going to post the above. :) Thranduil couldn't have saved Erebor, but the elves could have helped the dwarves - tended to the wounded and also helped them as they began to establish a new life. Thorin is likely angry about all of it - about them not fighting the dragon and also turning their backs to the aftermath. Had Thranduil done whatever he could to provide aid, it probably would have lessened the irrational anger that Thorin (and probably Thror and Thrain) felt.

I think by the very end, we will all have probably gone through quite an emotional roller coaster. I think we will understand the elves' perspective better and have good will towards them, but I also think Thorin will have redeemed himself and we'll really appreciate what the dwarves have been through, even more than we do now.

I was on the dwarves side, so to speak, after reading the book, despite not liking much of what Thorin did. I think I'll still feel for the dwarves after the movies as well, unless they really change things up a lot.

As far as Elrond's comment goes, as others have said, he isn't too positive about men either. I think his comments are brought on by his concern about the future of middle-earth and sadness at how the world is changing. I don't think they contradict his hospitality to Thorin.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jan 21 2013, 5:38am

Post #20 of 32 (212 views)
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Not all Dwarves are descended from Durin... [In reply to] Can't Post

Durin's Folk are probably a minority. Perhaps the other Houses have done far less to improve relations with the other Free Peoples.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


swordwhale
Grey Havens


Jan 21 2013, 7:09am

Post #21 of 32 (184 views)
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what? Elrond was in Asgard???? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
rudely he was addressed by Thorin in the AUJ when Elrond mentioned knowing Thor, I can understand why Elrond would be...Crazy



LaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh

It's late, I'm easily amused... I also like guys with the syllable thor in their names...

Go outside and play...


swordwhale
Grey Havens


Jan 21 2013, 7:22am

Post #22 of 32 (179 views)
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and in the end... [In reply to] Can't Post

we will have had quite a ride.

The Hobbit (book)'s style is so spare, it will be interesting to see what gets deeper development in the films.

I, for one, want to see Thranduil give my favorite line: "Long will I tarry ere I begin this war for gold."

Looking back at the book, Thorin takes awhile to join the fray. I think things will get interesting...

Go outside and play...


Cirashala
Grey Havens

Jan 21 2013, 8:41am

Post #23 of 32 (220 views)
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elrond's comment and dwarves-possible spoilers [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I can see it as a valid conclusion.

While I absolutely love the dwarves (and elves too) I can definitely see Elrond's point.

Thorin and Co were very concerned about getting Smaug OUT of the mountain. Perhaps killing him was considered, but honestly, I think Thorin after seeing the aftermath of the initial scourge, wasn't too sure if it was possible, and even if he thought so, wouldn't it be VERY likely that no one else thought that a rag tag group of 13 dwarves and one hobbit could possibly defeat a dragon, especially since there's a good chance by his reaction at Bilbo's that Gandalf himself has never slain a dragon either?

Basically, Elrond didn't think it wise to disturb a sleeping dragon for gold, and also even if Thorin and Co had somehow managed to get Smaug out, I doubt Elrond could see them being able to even kill him, which raised the point in my mind-Dale was destroyed by Smaug because of the gold in Erebor-it was just too close. Yet the dwarves didn't really aid the men of Dale after that attack, being too busy tending their own people and too busy hating the elves for their lack of help. I do agree- Thranduil could have at least aided the refugees even if it wasn't in battle against the dragon. Elrond wouldn't have lost kin in the dragon scourge, therefore he would see no reason other than the gold as motivation for the dwarves' quest. And had by some chance Thorin and Co managed to not kill Smaug but still get him out of the mountain, Smaug surely would have attacked Esgaroth anyway as well as the forest kingdom. Yet Thorin didn't see that as a possible consequence of waking a sleeping dragon. Or as Gandalf put it, the dangers if a sleeping dragon were awakened and Sauron resurfaced-that dragon would have caused innumerable death and suffering to all races not just dwarves and possibly aided in winning the war and covering the world in a second darkness-all possible consequences that Thorin didn't perceive.

So in that context, yes Elrond's statement about hiding in mountains seeking riches is indeed very true.

Also, as far as Moria is concerned (in Thorin and Gandalf's conversation at the old farm ruins), the elves of LothLorien didn't help because they knew the balrog was in there, and like the dragon, didn't want such a fearsome monster awakened (plus the dwarves awakened the balrog in the first place, which didn't please the neighboring elves at ALL) and attacking their people-yet the dwarves tried to reclaim Moria anyway despite the balrog. It mirrors the situation with Smaug. Had the balrog chosen to leave Moria, LothLorien, quite possible Rohan (not being too much further south) and then the rest of middle earth-like the dragon-could have been attacked by it and used by Sauron effectively had he been able to get past LothLorien and Galadriel.

Both instances, the Elves possessed more foresight than the dwarves regarding the fate of many races should these two monsters be disturbed from their slumber, yet the dwarves still tried to reclaim both kingdoms-one succeeded (luckily) and the other one failed, but still held at bay by Galadriel. The dwarves were in those instances more concerned with their own affairs and their treasures rather than concerned what impact these foul creatures would have had if their slumber had been broken. The skeleton filled halls of Moria in FOTR are but a taste of the power of these creatures and the orcs and goblins that they attract and is what happens both in and out should such fearsome creatures be awakened. The elves fought Anglacon (sp?) the dragon in the first age, and had seen dragon fire uncounted in the War of Wrath. They had also fought balrogs of Morgoth in the same war. They KNEW the massive and terrible effect of these creatures, and what could happen if they awoke. So when the wise counseled the stubborn dwarves to not go on their quest, and when they say that they hide in their mountains seeking riches and care nothing for the troubles of others, while I do think it a bit harsh (especially considering Gimli's accomplishments during the fellowship), I definitely see where he is coming from, and while there is some racial prejudice there, in many ways he has a very good point.

Half Elven Daughter of Celethian of the Woodland Realm


Loresilme
Valinor


Jan 21 2013, 2:30pm

Post #24 of 32 (179 views)
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Ooooh! This would then explain a line of Bilbo's from the Prologue [In reply to] Can't Post

"No help came from the elves that day, or any day since.


That last part "or any day since" stuck in my mind when I first heard it and I wondered if it was just there for effect (it does sound great :-)) or if it referred to something specific. To yours and Silverlode's point, it was quite reasonably justified for Thranduil to not help in trying to battle a dragon, however he also chose not to help the dwarves afterwards, so it seems very possible now that those words are referring to that aspect of it. And Bilbo will have known of it, because we can assume Thorin would tell him as much.

I think you've both hit on an important point, and those words in the Prologue might have been a brilliant bit of foreshadowing regarding the details yet to be revealed between Thranduil and Thorin in the next two films.

*sigh* every time these great things to look forward to come up, I have to remind myself, it's going to be a looooong wait to get to see them CrazySly.


dave_lf
Gondor

Jan 21 2013, 3:22pm

Post #25 of 32 (152 views)
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As you'll recall, The Hobbit ends... [In reply to] Can't Post

...with the dwarves refusing to share their riches with others in spite of their troubles, and preparing to fight a war against them to keep it that way. The only thing that changes their minds is the fact that a common enemy shows up at the last minute. I think Elrond's assessment it pretty accurate.

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