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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Would it have been better with Bolg chasing the dwarves?

Neaniver
Registered User

Jan 19 2013, 11:33pm

Post #1 of 16 (691 views)
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Would it have been better with Bolg chasing the dwarves? Can't Post

Would it have been better with Azog being killed off like it says in the ROTK Appendices, and Bolg chasing them for revenge if they wanted to have someone to pursue the company.


Hamfast of Gamwich
Rivendell


Jan 19 2013, 11:57pm

Post #2 of 16 (349 views)
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Would it have made any actual difference to the story at all? [In reply to] Can't Post

Obviously it would please they Tolkein purists to have Bolg instead of Azog but I don't think it would have any effect on the storytelling of the film other than:

- the link with the battle of Azanulbizar scene would be less poignant if it was the son of the orc who killed Thorin's grandfather than the orc himself.
- Bolg looks cooler than Azog.

So one reason for and one against it being Bolg instead of Azog.


Rostron2
Gondor


Jan 19 2013, 11:58pm

Post #3 of 16 (336 views)
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It doesn't really matter... [In reply to] Can't Post

They were going to add dramatic tension by a pursuit almost from the start. They could have named the badass orc almost anything. Twinkle or something. They chose Azog and people get upset.

The movie isn't a stand-alone film, but you do have to bring things to some kind of dramatic conclusion with the Fifteen Birds scene, It's just the way things are written and done. You resolve things whether or not there was another film after it. They did much the same thing in Fellowship.

They're holding Bolg in reserve.


TheSexyBeard
Lorien

Jan 20 2013, 12:03am

Post #4 of 16 (330 views)
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I think this could have worked [In reply to] Can't Post

In all honesty when Thorin confronted Azog at the end, I expected him to win the fight and kill him once and for all, setting up Bolg for the next film. Then when the scene started to play out I soon realised this wasn't going to happen anymore.

It probably would have worked well if Bolg pursued the company, more so if Thorin killed Azog outside Moria, setting up a that revenge was the reason behind his pursuit and his appearance at the Battle of the Five Armies. Although to be honest I have a hard time imaging that Orcs would have strong family bonds. I'm sure in a spoiler pod cast on Empire's website Phillapa Boyens explains why Azog was included over Bolg.

Overall I don't mind that Azog wasn't killed off outside Moria, I thought he was a good character but I'm looking forward to seeing how Bolg will work in the film.

Yes, my username is terrible.

(This post was edited by TheSexyBeard on Jan 20 2013, 12:04am)


Kendalf
Rohan


Jan 20 2013, 12:07am

Post #5 of 16 (316 views)
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Well, I, for one... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Would it have been better with Azog being killed off like it says in the ROTK Appendices, and Bolg chasing them for revenge?



...vote "Yes!"

"I have found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love."


Rostron2
Gondor


Jan 20 2013, 12:19am

Post #6 of 16 (322 views)
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Then kill Azog in the second film [In reply to] Can't Post

and you still can use the revenge trope.

I have been thinking about this. What's going to be the 'pop' of action at the beginning of DOS? Beorn torturing a goblin or two doesn't seem very exciting, or even very Tolkien to me.


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Jan 20 2013, 1:12am

Post #7 of 16 (305 views)
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An Orc by any other name would smell as sweet. [In reply to] Can't Post

Or something like that.

I suspect there's a fairly strong reason for Azog being the archenemy, and his son Bolg coming in near the end (we have no idea when Azog will be killed -- or by whom -- so he could be there at the end too). Azog killed Thorin's grandfather (as in the Appendices), Thorin wants his revenge -- maybe he'll get it by killing Azog, but that sets Bolg in motion to seek his own revenge, thus bringing about Thorin's ultimate demise. Just speculation, of course, but I have a strong feeling that Azog is not just a random bad Orc and that the fact that Bolg is his son is significant.


bborchar
Rohan

Jan 20 2013, 1:25am

Post #8 of 16 (282 views)
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I agree with this... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I suspect there's a fairly strong reason for Azog being the archenemy, and his son Bolg coming in near the end (we have no idea when Azog will be killed -- or by whom -- so he could be there at the end too). Azog killed Thorin's grandfather (as in the Appendices), Thorin wants his revenge -- maybe he'll get it by killing Azog, but that sets Bolg in motion to seek his own revenge, thus bringing about Thorin's ultimate demise. Just speculation, of course, but I have a strong feeling that Azog is not just a random bad Orc and that the fact that Bolg is his son is significant.


This.

We don't know how the storyline concerning Azog and Bolg will play out yet. I, for one, enjoy a little surprise. Azog didn't bother me in any way, and it created the necessary tension at the end. I also doubt that Thorin would have charged any other villain (it wasn't exactly a smart move, but you could see that he was enraged, and people don't do smart things when they are enraged). It creates so many new possibilities, and makes the story a little more exciting.


Súlimë
Rivendell


Jan 20 2013, 2:16am

Post #9 of 16 (274 views)
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Totally agree! [In reply to] Can't Post

We will still have to see how it plays out in the rest of the trilogy. I don't think they randomly change things around for no good reason.


Me
The Shire

Jan 20 2013, 5:30am

Post #10 of 16 (241 views)
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Orcs procreate? Orc wives?...nasty. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 20 2013, 7:35am

Post #11 of 16 (209 views)
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They probably feel the same way about Humans, // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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Fredeghar Wayfarer
Lorien


Jan 20 2013, 7:45am

Post #12 of 16 (228 views)
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I would have preferred Bolg [In reply to] Can't Post

I for one would have been more willing to accept the invented Warg-rider pursuit if it had used a character who is actually in the book. A beefed up role for Bolg would have been interesting, would foreshadow his role in the Battle of Five Armies, and would have felt like a more natural extension of the story. Using Azog is distracting to someone who knows the book and, in my case anyway, it annoyed me and raised too many questions for me to enjoy the addition.

Bolg was already at Azanulbizar in the film. Why not have him help kill Thror but slink away before Thorin can fight him? You could have an interesting parallel plotline where Bolg's vendetta mirrors Thorin's and leads him to ally himself with the Necromancer so he can get revenge on the Dwarves. They may still do this in DOS, in which case why did we need Azog at all? Why not just build up a single character as the secondary villain?

I admit that I'm being a Tolkien purist. Ultimately, whatever the lead orc's name, he would have served the same role either way. And yes, we haven't seen how this story is going to play out. But unless they do something truly amazing with Azog in the upcoming movies, I think I'm going to always hate that part of the series.


dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 20 2013, 9:14am

Post #13 of 16 (200 views)
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Too early to say.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... because we don't know where they're going with this yet.

Seems to me that in film one they needed to set up the forces that will come together in the Battle of Five Armies. They had to introduce the Gundabad orcs and make some sort of connection between them and the dwarves, to give a reason why they suddenly turn up at the end. I think that was even more important than trailing the Mirkwood elves, though film one did that too. We will at least meet Thranduil and his people in film two: if they followed the book the orcs would arrive on the scene just as battle is about to break out, with Bolg's main motivation (apart from the gold) his desire for revenge on a another character who has only just appeared.

It's setting up the battle, but it's also developing the character of Thorin. In the book he arrives at the Carrock with the rest as a grumpy dwarf. Proud, quick to stand on his dignity, driven by strong motivations we don't really know that much about. They've fleshed out a backstory for him - told us why he hates the Gundabad orcs, why he doesn't trust elves. He's still grim and a bit surly but they've used Thranduil and Azog as presented in the film to make him more understandable.

Could they have used Bolg? Yes, but they chose not to. Until we know why they chose not to, I don't see how anyone can judge whether it was the best way or not.


Brandybuckled
Lorien


Jan 20 2013, 2:34pm

Post #14 of 16 (152 views)
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Like a time travel story when a change is made... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
... because we don't know where they're going with this yet.



My thought, too. It's as though a split has been caused in time with Azog.

It remains to be seen if they can bring the two stories/timestreams back together at all, or whether, if it does happen, it will be seamless or massively glaring.

NAArP: Not An Ardent purist since Arda was dented



Grant
The Shire

Jan 20 2013, 5:01pm

Post #15 of 16 (128 views)
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I'd say no. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think there's more dramatic potential in Thorin dealing with the Orc that killed his grandfather versus Bolg chasing after the dwarf that killed his father.

I don't think the audience would drum up much sympathy for an Orc to make the later work.


Cirashala
Grey Havens

Jan 21 2013, 7:42am

Post #16 of 16 (145 views)
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It works with Azog-possible spoilers [In reply to] Can't Post

To begin with, I have read the books, I have read Tolkien's letters, I have read appendices, as well as done much research about Tolkien's dwarves, particularly this company. And most of the time I am a book purist (to some extent).


However, I also am familiar enough (being as how I am a visual learner) of techniques that must be modified to change a book into a visual medium in an effective way.

While I agree that part of the Azog story (such as his "prosthetic" for example) are a little bit cheesy, I have to say that it would have confused the audience very greatly to have Bolg, the son of Azog, who wasn't even killed by Thorin Oakenshield but rather by Dain Ironfoot (a character that hasn't been introduced yet), seeking revenge for his father's death, when in movie canon (ie LOTR) and from what I can tell (haven't quite finished reading LOTR yet only about 2/3 of the way through the book-have a preschooler hindering that!) familial relationships among orcs isn't really discussed in much detail.

So, the first point of confusion is-if we stuck to the book, why would Bolg seek revenge on THORIN when DAIN is the one who killed Azog? If you read the books and the backstory, you would understand maybe, but that would require Bolg being fully aware of Dain being at BO5A, and even in the book, it seems a bit muddy as to HOW he would have known since the Elves and Men didn't even know Dain was coming until Bilbo informed them.

And why did he target Thorin instead of the dwarf who actually killed his father? For revenge of the Great Goblin, who, since Bolg was an orc (and Tolkien may have used it interchangeably at first, but by the time LOTR and the appendices and unfinished tales and such came around, he had begun to differentiate between the two) he could target Thorin, but since the Hobbit indicated that he was seeking revenge for his father, it does not make much sense for him to target Thorin over Dain.

And lastly, family relationships. If even by the end of AUJ we can infer but still don't know for sure (unless you are a book reader, which some of the audience is not) that Fili and Kili are Thorin's nephews, and have only rhyming names and a reference to Balin and Dwalin being brothers, and the indication because of their simultaneous arrival and speaking off each other with Fili and Kili asn being brothers, then how can the audience expect to know that Bolg is Azog's son? And we have also seen that Orcs don't value family and honor like dwarves do. So even if the familial revenge was in the book, the audience simply WON'T GET IT, at least not without some convoluted explanation dialogue, which would have turned the movie into a narrated film and that gets tedious in many films.


So, I think Azog remaining the main villain in the first film, and tying up some continuity, and keeping the characters we as an audience have to figure out (come on, including Gandalf and Bilbo, we ALREADY have 15 people to get to know in a short span of time-given how many people versus 2.5 hrs) so adding the additional lineage for Thorin, plus Dain so early (despite the reference at the unexpected party) and having a rough time explaining dwarven loyalty to family murder, plus Thror being killed in a foolhardy attempt at Moria as opposed to battle, and having Thorin seek revenge many years later, etc. I think the film honestly, even if it wasn't true purism, made it so the audience didn't have two hours of pure backstory, confusing lineages, and narration instead of the current story being told.

Books being translated to media often have to have some simplification, some complication, and some adjustments simply so it makes sense to those who both have read the books and those who haven't. It wasn't til I saw LOTR EE with my husband five years ago that I even knew Middle Earth existed, and since then I own nearly every book Tolkien (or Christopher) wrote/compiled, have done countless hours of research, and even worked on a huge fanfic in my head that is constantly changing, make middle earth style costumes, have a book on learning to speak Sindarin, etc. And that would not have happened had I not seen the movies first. So, instead of debating purism vs movie canon, perhaps relish the fact that thanks to the movie, there will be a new generation of Tolkien enthusiasts who seek the books and literature to find out more about this wonderful Middle Earth that the movie hints of Smile

Certainly worked with me Wink


(and there is absolutely no offense intended to either purists or movie canon-just my simple take-one can enjoy both and like I had said before, its rough translating book with narration and dialogue into action and dialogue-I think PJ&co did good and bad but did their best with what they had)

Half Elven Daughter of Celethian of the Woodland Realm

 
 

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