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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Runes on orcrist in Khuzdul?

Durin's Folk
The Shire


Jan 19 2013, 4:00am

Post #1 of 15 (541 views)
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Runes on orcrist in Khuzdul? Can't Post

Why are the runes on orcrist written in Khuzdul? Should them not be written in Quenya or sindarin since the blade was made by elves?

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Orcrist
"But a small dark figure that none had observed sprang out of the shadows and gave a hoarse shout: 'Baruk Khazd! Khazd ai-mnu!' An axe swung and swept back. Two Orcs fell headless. The rest fled."


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Jan 19 2013, 4:18am

Post #2 of 15 (294 views)
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The Runes are Elvish in origin [In reply to] Can't Post

The Runes, also called Cirth, were invented by a Sindarin Elf named Daeron, and the Dwarves eventually adapted the Cirth for their language. Here is a link that should be helpful:

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Daeron%27s_Runes

The article you cite also states the translation on Orcrsit is "NAGOL E-LYG or Tooth of-Snake [or Dragon]". It is most likely Sindarin, but not Khuzdul.

There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much.


(This post was edited by Aragalen the Green on Jan 19 2013, 4:23am)


Durin's Folk
The Shire


Jan 19 2013, 4:32am

Post #3 of 15 (261 views)
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Thanks! but... [In reply to] Can't Post

Why would elves of Gondolin who thought those Runes were ''Simplistic'' use them on such pieces who were destined to be wielded by elven royalty?

"But a small dark figure that none had observed sprang out of the shadows and gave a hoarse shout: 'Baruk Khazd! Khazd ai-mnu!' An axe swung and swept back. Two Orcs fell headless. The rest fled."


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Jan 19 2013, 5:02am

Post #4 of 15 (252 views)
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I think the answer lies... [In reply to] Can't Post

with Peter Jackson and crew, as Orcrist appears to be their design for the movie..

However, in looking around the links from the link I posted, I did find this a reference to the Angerthas Daeron, which seemed to be the highest Elvish form of the Cirth:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Angerthas_Daeron

In the third paragraph of this link under Structure, it did mention "but for most forms of writing other than carving, the Tengwar were used". So perhaps too simple for writing but not for carving or even inscriptions on a sword. Just a guess.

There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much.


Jabarkis
The Shire

Jan 19 2013, 5:05am

Post #5 of 15 (249 views)
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Hieroglyphs and Hieratic [In reply to] Can't Post

One possibility is that the elves would have used one script for official or important inscriptions on hard materials (like stone and metal), and another for day-to-day purposes or for writing on softer material (like paper).

Perhaps it's a bit like the different uses of hieroglyphics and hieratic by the Egyptians?

Edit: Aragalen - ah, well spotted :)


(This post was edited by Jabarkis on Jan 19 2013, 5:09am)


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Jan 19 2013, 4:22pm

Post #6 of 15 (126 views)
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Likewise :) [In reply to] Can't Post

We both got similar information from different routes! Good researching :)

There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much.


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Jan 19 2013, 4:23pm

Post #7 of 15 (136 views)
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Did this information help answer your question? [In reply to] Can't Post

Other than asking the Orcrist design team!

There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much.


Ruxendil_Thoorg
Grey Havens


Jan 19 2013, 6:25pm

Post #8 of 15 (142 views)
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Inscriptions on Sting (from LOTR) and Glamdring [In reply to] Can't Post

were in Tengwar.

http://www.elvish.org/...vie_inscriptions.htm

What would the reason be to use Cirth for Orcrist?

. Or conversely, why use Tengwar for Sting and Glamdring, in light of the article you cited?

I ask sincerely for my understanding.

A bag is like a hole that you can carry with you.

http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_expanded;

(This post was edited by Ruxendil_Thoorg on Jan 19 2013, 6:29pm)


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Jan 19 2013, 6:46pm

Post #9 of 15 (131 views)
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Inscription on Glamdring [In reply to] Can't Post

in the link you posted is also Cirth (Runes), not Tengwar.

There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much.


Durin's Folk
The Shire


Jan 19 2013, 7:09pm

Post #10 of 15 (109 views)
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This has helped me a lot but still... [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Sting was supposedly inscripted in Rivendell by request from Bilbo. Maybe that's what they used Tengwar for the engraving. I am still wondering why exactly they would use cirth on this sword and tengwar on this other one.

I guess it was maybe cultural since there were many different clans of elves. Gondolin = Cirth, Rivendell = Tengwar.... BUT NO WAIT!!! Anduril was also forged in Rivendell and they used... CIRTH! What is going on out here!!

I don't know if it's the design team who screwed it or if they had legitimate insights. But Keeping it Tengwar all the way would have been my choice.

"But a small dark figure that none had observed sprang out of the shadows and gave a hoarse shout: 'Baruk Khazd! Khazd ai-mnu!' An axe swung and swept back. Two Orcs fell headless. The rest fled."

(This post was edited by Durin's Folk on Jan 19 2013, 7:10pm)


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Jan 19 2013, 7:20pm

Post #11 of 15 (112 views)
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Just to clarify, [In reply to] Can't Post

From the links that I and others (and you!) shared here, both Orcrist and Glamdring are inscripted with Sindarin Cirth (runes). Sting's inscription was added in Rivendell, and they used Sindarin Tengwar.

I don't know why the differences! Perhaps inscripting with Tengwar was more difficult and came later that the use of the Cirth. As far as Anduril, maybe Men used Cirth rather than Tengwar? Using Tengwar for Sting may have been at Bilbo's personal request, as he loved studying Elvish.

Whew, I'm not a linguist, but did study Cirth and Tengwar years ago...maybe I should study it again to catch up!

There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much.


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 19 2013, 7:21pm

Post #12 of 15 (100 views)
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Many interpretations, as always. [In reply to] Can't Post

It could be as simple as that Bilbo is a big fan of Tengwar and specifically requested an inscription in that script even though it's not traditionally used for carving. As I recall, the carvings on Andril weren't in Sindarin but Adnaic, which is never written in Tengwar, since the blade was intended for a King of Men.


Durin's Folk
The Shire


Jan 19 2013, 7:28pm

Post #13 of 15 (99 views)
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This makes more sense. [In reply to] Can't Post

Still I believe we can all agree that we will never find the 100% real answer. I really thank you guy's specially Aragalen the Green. Thank you!

"But a small dark figure that none had observed sprang out of the shadows and gave a hoarse shout: 'Baruk Khazd! Khazd ai-mnu!' An axe swung and swept back. Two Orcs fell headless. The rest fled."

(This post was edited by Durin's Folk on Jan 19 2013, 7:29pm)


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Jan 19 2013, 7:39pm

Post #14 of 15 (110 views)
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You are welcome! [In reply to] Can't Post

In my profession, I do a lot of research, so this has been fun for me. And I agree, trying to find out about invented languages--with the author sadly gone--means we may never find the "right" answer. Keep on asking questions!

There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much.


Ruxendil_Thoorg
Grey Havens


Jan 19 2013, 8:59pm

Post #15 of 15 (164 views)
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whoops! you're right! thanks // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

A bag is like a hole that you can carry with you.

http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_expanded;

 
 

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