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Roheryn
Dor-Lomin
Jan 18 2013, 2:43am
Post #1 of 34
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Yet more musings and observations
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Okay, so here's some more things I've noticed or am musing on after viewing #10. Thoughts, comments, or funny noises appreciated!
1. As Bilbo asks Kili to stop wiping his boots on his mother’s glory box, we can see in the background Fili pulling knives out of a large variety of places as he hands his weapons over to Bilbo. Dwalin and Kili have only handed Bilbo a few things each, but Fili hands over one, then another and another and another…Bilbo ends up with a huge armful (which we see clearly a moment later, but I'd never seen where they all came from!) I’ve always been too busy watching Kili’s total lack of respect to notice what Fili was doing!
2. Sebastian the hedgehog is rendered surprisingly realistically, even down to a very nice belly button.
3. I’ve noticed before during the troll fighting that Ori uses his slingshot to thwack a troll in the eye – but I hadn’t noticed why: it’s because that troll had just scooped up Nori. Ori to the rescue! And it works: the troll drops Nori.
4. Also during the troll fight, Dwalin does what looks like an impressive move, sliding under and past a troll or two as he goes; he ends up laying on the ground. (This is a little bit after Kili has performed a similar slide.) In the next split second, Thorin uses Dwalin’s back as a springboard to leap up onto a troll and attack it around its shoulders/head. Perhaps a nice example of Thorin one-upping Dwalin!
5. I believe Thorin commands every Dwarf in the company at least once, except Bifur, Dori and Ori. I doubt there’s any particular significance here, but it’s vaguely interesting. Kili is the only one he commands when they’re under attack.
a. Fili & Kili: Look after the ponies.
b. Kili: Shoot them! Run! And the silent instruction to shoot the Warg and Orc.
c. Oin & Gloin: Get a fire going.
d. Bombur: Come on, we’re hungry.
e. Balin: Sound the alarm.
f. Bofur, Gloin, Nori: (Implied: Follow me out of the troll cave).
g. Dwalin: (Implied: Follow me into the mountain cave and search it).
6. Why is Saruman at Rivendell? Did he show up only after Gandalf et al. had arrived? Why did he call the meeting of the White Council right then?
7. And, if the whole Rivendell scene takes place during a single day/night/following dawn (as opposed to a couple of weeks), how could Gandalf have thought Elrond had sent for Galadriel? I.e., Gandalf’s words “I had no idea Lord Elrond sent for you” suggest that Elrond had the capacity to send for her, and she had the capacity to arrive, all within about a 12-hour period. (Aha! Galadriel can indeed teleport herself!)
8. Thorin is really hurt by Bofur’s comment in the cave to Bilbo that “You’re right; we don’t have a home.” This is what he wants to fix for his people, and the fact that he hasn’t done so yet really burns within him. He may be fit to be a king in the eyes of his people (Balin says as much), but until he’s reclaimed their lost home, he’ll never be fit to be a king in his own eyes.
9. Does Dwalin take a couple of swipes at the Eagles as the Eagles swoop around scattering Orcs and Wargs?
10. Dwalin uses his warhammer as a leaning post pretty much every time he’s standing still.
11. Dwalin has a familiarity with Thorin that none of the others have (except maybe Balin). Yes, Kili’s close to Thorin but he’s still deferential, but Dwalin isn’t. Dwalin also knows where Thorin has been before Bag End and no one else seems to. Dwalin's the other one (besides Kili) who's almost always next to Thorin, especially when they're fighting.
12. Fili does a double-take when he hears Kili tell Bilbo that the noise he just heard is Orcs. You can just make out Thorin rolling his eyes and shaking his head in exasperation at Kili for teasing Bilbo so.
13. Thorin apparently doesn’t understand Elvish (he doesn’t seem to know Elrond just offered them food). I’m guessing he doesn’t understand Orcish either, and his response to Azog’s taunts near the end isn’t based on the content of what Azog says, but just on Azog’s existence and generalized nastiness.
14. Both Thorin and Dwalin are reasonably likely to punch their attackers when fighting at close range.
15. Why oh why must the Goblin King have nipples?
16. One of the trolls -- sorry, I don't have their names straight yet, but it's not the cook nor the snotty-nosed one -- is cleaning his fingernails (or trimming them?) with a large knife while the cooking is going on. Somehow it's funny that trolls would worry about such things.
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SirDennisC
Gondolin
Jan 18 2013, 2:57am
Post #2 of 34
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Wasn't Elrond speaking Dwarvish (Khuzdul) when he invited them for dinner?
Also, a question if I may: is the Elven harpist played by Katie Jackson?
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jan 18 2013, 2:59am)
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Gelir
Nevrast
Jan 18 2013, 3:12am
Post #3 of 34
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Otherwise Gloin would have understood and not been offended.
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ryouko
Menegroth
Jan 18 2013, 3:15am
Post #4 of 34
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More things to look for tomorrow~!!
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A thing I noticed last time, Bert is blind in his left eye.
When they're fighting the Trolls, Ori seems to be the one continually picked up and thrown. I think Nori attacked one of the Trolls holding Ori at one point. I think he catches Ori at another time. Shoot, have to pay close attention next time.
A little booboo I've noticed(or maybe they just stopped at some point). When the Eagle first grabs Thorin, one of Thorin's legs in hanging down. When they're flying along, both legs are tucked into the claw. As they're landing, one leg is hanging out again.
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Ruxendil_Thoorg
Dor-Lomin
Jan 18 2013, 3:20am
Post #5 of 34
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Wow Roheryn! Outstanding observations!
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Viewing #10, indeed!
6. Saruman may have chosen that time and venue based on a magical prediction as to Gandalf's movements. Maybe Galadriel used her mirror? And then informed Saruman to suggest a time and place?
7. Why couldn't Elrond have sent for Galadriel (prior to Gandalf's arrival)? Such as by courier or whatnot, as customarily done, assuming he did not share her telepathy/projection ability. (I still say Galadriel used projection and not teleportation, and her moving a strand of Gandy's hair could have been a projected illusion or physically caused by a summoned breeze.)
15. You gotta give the GreatGoblin nips. Why wouldn't he have them? He's got pretty much everything else and lots of it XD
A bag is like a hole that you can carry with you.
http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_expanded;
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Gelir
Nevrast
Jan 18 2013, 3:21am
Post #6 of 34
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#5 - Also "Bofur, take the first watch."
Re: #6 and 7 - I was wondering about the timeline too. Maybe they're in Rivendell for more than a day. Or, maybe Saruman assumed Gandalf would be leading the company to Rivendell at some point, so he sent for Galadriel ahead of time and they all just happened to arrive at around the same time. Saruman knows about the quest somehow, so that makes the most sense to me at this point. I wonder if there will be anything in the extended edition to give a little more background there.
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Tintallë
Mithlond
Jan 18 2013, 3:25am
Post #7 of 34
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having been down with the flu and pretty much consigned to the house under quarantine. I so envy you having seen it 10 times!
This time I found it went by very fast indeed and I was riveted throughout. Reading through your musings immediately after seeing the movie has been a real pleasure, especially as you have cemented some things in my mind which, of course, frees me up to look for new things next time.
I hope there is a next time. Tomorrow is Friday and I anticipate being unable to see it in HFR 3D. It's the only format I've seen so far.
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Tintallë
Mithlond
Jan 18 2013, 3:29am
Post #9 of 34
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and I kind of assumed Galadriel knew everything from her mirror
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and from the powers conveyed by Nenya.
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Roheryn
Dor-Lomin
Jan 18 2013, 3:35am
Post #10 of 34
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Ancient Dwarvish? Drat it, I knew I should have paid closer attention in Middle-earth Linguistics 101. 
Mr. Ro's reasonably good with Middle-earth linguistics and isn't sure himself, but he just looked it up on a Polish site (elendilion.net), which indicates Elrond's speaking in Elvish.
Not sure about the harpist, sorry -- I don't think I'd recognize Katie Jackson even not dressed up as an Elf!
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Gelir
Nevrast
Jan 18 2013, 3:39am
Post #11 of 34
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Definitely not just you. He had a little scowl there. :)
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SirDennisC
Gondolin
Jan 18 2013, 3:47am
Post #12 of 34
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It sounded more gutteral and hard
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than Elvish (to me anyway, and I'm no expert). I assumed the scene was intended to be humorous, that the dwarves were not as familiar with their own ancient tongue as Elrond is. It also demonstrates the centuries (and likely the wisdom) that Elrond has on even the oldest dwarf among them. (But I could be wrong.)
Later Gandalf tells Thorin that Elrond is one of few in Middle-earth who can still read ancient dwarvish...
Katie is listed as an hobbit (uncredited) at IMDb. The harpist sure looks like her though.
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jan 18 2013, 3:49am)
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Gelir
Nevrast
Jan 18 2013, 3:56am
Post #13 of 34
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It sounded like the same language the Elrond was speaking with Gandalf when he was talking about the orc pack. I think Elrond's voice is a just a little harsher sounding, but I'm pretty sure it was still Elvish. The words had the same sound to them.
Also, Gandalf wouldn't know ancient dwarvish (or else he'd be able to read the map), so if that's what Elrond was speaking, Gandalf wouldn't have been able to translate for Gloin.
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swordwhale
Dor-Lomin
Jan 18 2013, 4:11am
Post #14 of 34
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A thing I noticed last time, Bert is blind in his left eye.
When they're fighting the Trolls, Ori seems to be the one continually picked up and thrown. I think Nori attacked one of the Trolls holding Ori at one point. I think he catches Ori at another time. Shoot, have to pay close attention next time.
A little booboo I've noticed(or maybe they just stopped at some point). When the Eagle first grabs Thorin, one of Thorin's legs in hanging down. When they're flying along, both legs are tucked into the claw. As they're landing, one leg is hanging out again.
Could be continuity (there's a wierdness in wheretheheck is Orcrist during the ealge pickup and flight)... or just the fact that birds of prey can do that, adjust how they are carrying things (eagles and osprey usually carry fish headfirst, it's more aerodynamic).
Go outside and play...
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swordwhale
Dor-Lomin
Jan 18 2013, 4:16am
Post #15 of 34
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seem unhappily surprised to be assigned first watch, or was it just me? Why would he mind?
No, it was not just you. I think James Nesbitt is brilliant... some of the subtleties of Bofur's expressions are priceless. That was a subtle little bit I noticed, that he'd maybe like to just collapse at that point, not stand watch, but he will defer to The Leader without complaint, because he's just that kind of guy.
I truly love his conversation with Bilbo (right before they all fall through the cracks of doom into the goblin cave). The subtle shift of his face from "where are you going?" to "you're one of us!" to the sadness of "you're right..." is just awesome... he's just a sweet character.
Go outside and play...
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bborchar
Nargothrond
Jan 18 2013, 4:34am
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In an interview, Richard Armitage talked about what he "imagined" Thorin's character to be. One of the characteristics he said was that he thought Thorin enjoyed smoking his pipe with Dwalin. This obviously goes to the idea that he and Dwalin are close friends. It was an interesting interview.
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Súlimë
Ossiriand
Jan 18 2013, 4:43am
Post #17 of 34
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I like to think that Thorin understands (at least some) Elvish. Maybe he understands what Elrond is saying but he is still just a bit wary and not completely willing to accept help from the Elves.
About Gloin 'speaking up' and 'taking charge' -- maybe that is what Thorin secretly wants to do but knows he shouldn't be rude, so he 'lets' Gloin and co. do whatever they want.
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SirDennisC
Gondolin
Jan 18 2013, 4:56am
Post #18 of 34
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You probably have a better ear for it than I.
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This is actually an interesting time, being before the EEs and extras have come out and we are told everything...
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this Gelir.
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weaver
Gondolin
Jan 18 2013, 5:45am
Post #19 of 34
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That would explain why Thorin is so bitter after they escape the Goblins, in response to Gandalf's querying about what happened to Bilbo. Thorin is still smarting from the fact that Bilbo's observation hit a deep sore spot for him, and so he lashes out. Thorin has been shown to be a big grudge holder, so he would not easily forget that kind of remark/sentiment from Bilbo easily.
Nicely observed (and that goes for all of your musings here), thanks!
Weaver
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Roheryn
Dor-Lomin
Jan 18 2013, 7:55am
Post #20 of 34
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of RA's interviews, but the couple I've read so far have been quite interesting. I suppose you wouldn't have a link for the one to which you refer?
Yes, I think it comes across well that Thorin and Dwalin are close friends. They've been through a lot together, and there's a great deal of silent trust between them.
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Roheryn
Dor-Lomin
Jan 18 2013, 8:26am
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Thorin's words right there are, I believe, "Master Baggins saw his chance and he took it! He’s thought of nothing but his soft bed and his warm hearth since first he stepped out of his door! We will not be seeing our Hobbit again. He is long gone.”
On the surface, those words are a direct reaction to having overheard Bilbo tell Bofur he was leaving. But the real reason for the hostility, I think, is because of what you've identified here: Bilbo's observation about the Dwarves not having a home hit Thorin's deepest sore spot. It takes Bilbo saving his life before Thorin has a change of heart.
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The Prancing Pony
Ossiriand
Jan 18 2013, 8:30am
Post #22 of 34
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He does call (and hold) Ori back, during the Warg-chase when Ori wants to run forward.
Great observations 
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
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Roheryn
Dor-Lomin
Jan 18 2013, 9:12am
Post #23 of 34
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So that just leaves Dori and poor Bifur, who no one seems to talk to except Gandalf.
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Roheryn
Dor-Lomin
Jan 18 2013, 9:49am
Post #24 of 34
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Galadriel's mirror -- of course. Should have thought of that. Maybe she teleports, or at least projects, through that.
And we've forgotten about the Moth Messengers too -- maybe it's not just Gandalf who uses them, and maybe they can do more than just summon Eagles!
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bborchar
Nargothrond
Jan 18 2013, 1:24pm
Post #25 of 34
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http://www.hollywood.com/news/The_Hobbit_An_Unexpected_Journey_Richard_Armitage_Thorin_Oakenshield_Interview/46160788
It's always interesting to me how different actors get into character. Some, like Armitage, invent backstory to help round out the character. Some, like Freeman, just walk on and become.
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