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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Problem I just noticed in Dialogue


Jan 17 2013, 5:07pm

Post #1 of 8 (803 views)
Problem I just noticed in Dialogue Can't Post

In the White Council scenes when the Morgul Blade is revealed Galadriel talks about the Witch King of Angmar being buried in a deep dark place and Elrond mentions spells on it. I have no prblem with that being true. The problem comes in the fact that they already knew about the Nazgul, The Witch King was known to be in Minas Morgul during LOTR movies, Aragorn gives their story as does Galadriel in those movies.
How in the world are they buried and safely put away in The Hobbit?
Minas Morgul was not Minas Morgul until after the kingdom of Angmar fell was it not?
The Witch King was a human king in Angmar correct?

The line about him being buried makes no sense to me in the context of the Dol Guldur subplot now that I think about it. I can reconcile their being tombs and all that, I explained my theory briefly in the Minas Morgul Thread another TORner started. In summation becoming a wraith is similar to becoming a butterfly, there is a body left to bury, the spirit goes on without leaving the circles of Arda.
So knowing that The Witch King is a Nazgul, how could he have been buried when he fell? When did he fall? Don't they know he showed back up again in Minas Morgul? Its a very confusing part of the story now that I thik about it. Can you guys help me out here?

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Jan 17 2013, 6:50pm

Post #2 of 8 (377 views)
The Witch King was Numenorean [In reply to] Can't Post

And he became a wraith in the Second Age, far before the founding of Angmar. All Ringwraiths existed before that, so if he was entombed, they mean his spirit was sealed within. They're probably recycling the barrow-downs for the High Fells, with spirits from the old kingdoms haunting the crypts.
If the Dunedain were strong enough to imprison the Nazgul, one might question why they can't do it again.
Or maybe it was someone else?

Grey Havens

Jan 17 2013, 7:27pm

Post #3 of 8 (298 views)
Someone else? [In reply to] Can't Post

Tom Bombadil of course.Cool


Jan 17 2013, 8:18pm

Post #4 of 8 (262 views)
Elrond Maybe? [In reply to] Can't Post

He seemed kinda ticked off that someone had broken the spells.


Jan 17 2013, 10:36pm

Post #5 of 8 (217 views)
Dunadan Magic [In reply to] Can't Post

I can buy the Dunedain sealing wraiths in crypts, actually. The Barrow-downs weren't actually haunted until the Witch-king came to Angmar, then he sent spirits to possess the corpses.

But within those barrows, Bombadil (and in the films, Aragorn (hey, film Aragorn might know Bombadil!)) took out old Dunedain short-swords.

And one of those short-swords - Merry's - had runes on it that made it capable of critically damaging the wraith-spell of the Witch-king, so that Eowyn could strike the ending blow.

The Men of the North certainly had runes and wards that could affect even wraiths as powerful as the Nazgul. These are men whose leaders frequent the libraries of Elrond and have some Numenorean lore passed down. They're also friendly with dwarves. If during the War with Angmar when the Noldor of Rivendell aided them, they managed to seal the Witch-king in these high fells (Carn Dum?) and put runes on the doors, so be it. In those days before Sauron's return he feared Glorfindel.

Then the only power capable of strengthening the Witch-king enough to escape would be the Return of Sauron - he's a direct proxy of Sauron's power levels, and at Sauron's height the Witch-king could break more than Dunadan Runes, he nearly smote Gandalf.

His escape will be further evidence for Gandalf that The Enemy is returning. The ultimate visual evidence will be Gandalf seeing Sauron's eyes - thus validating the Fellowship moment where Saruman says "You know of what I speak" and Gandalf replies "The Eye of Sauron" - which he recognizes for what it is. As we saw, right now the Witch-king is escaped, but is little more than a ghost - he can't wear robes as a garb in the real world - he can barely grip a black magic blade, and Radagast can perceive and thwart him.

(This post was edited by Retro315 on Jan 17 2013, 10:38pm)


Jan 17 2013, 11:00pm

Post #6 of 8 (209 views)
Well [In reply to] Can't Post

That sounds reasonable, however I see no point in the Witch King's presence when Gandalf could just as easily believe Radagast's encounter with the Necromancer.

However, if that's an excuse to show Tom Bombadil, or Glorfindel or even the last days of Angmar, sign me in. Otherwise we're left with lots of plot holes for no reason at all.
Are there several Morgul Blades? If the Dunedain have wards against the Ringwraiths, where are Aragorn's kinsmen in the movie version? Did Gandalf travel to Carn Dum before he ran after the dwarves? That would delay him for several weeks and he would never be able to come to their rescue.

(This post was edited by RalphDamiani on Jan 17 2013, 11:01pm)

Tol Eressea

Jan 18 2013, 2:16pm

Post #7 of 8 (127 views)
Other than the fact that the Witch King never died or was buried... // [In reply to] Can't Post


Happiness: money matters, but less than we think and not in the way that we think. Family is important and so are friends, while envy is toxic -- and so is excessive thinking. Beaches are optional. Trust is not. Neither is gratitude. - The Geography of Bliss by Eric Weiner as summarized by Lily Fairbairn. And a bit of the Hobbit reading thrown in never hurts. - NottaSackville

Ereinion Nénharma

Jan 18 2013, 2:22pm

Post #8 of 8 (130 views)
Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

in FOTR Gandalf also sees The Eye of Sauron when he tries to pick up the One Ring after Bilbo left it on the floor in Bag End. So he does not 'need' to see it on an earlier occasion.

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


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