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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Jan 17 2013, 7:52am
Post #1 of 6
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How to explain Balin returning to Accursed Moria. . . I have recovered the answer for the film team and lore ponderous alike
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A discontent, false hope and madness. . . spread by The Enemy. I know you think I am fabricating, but I am not. The matter had been on my mind. I looked into and reviewed these lines of Gloin to Elrond's council:
"A shadow of disquiet fell upon our people. Whence it came we did not at first perceive. Words began to be whispered in secret: that we were hemmed in, in a narrow place, and that greater wealth and splendour would be found in the wider world. Some spoke of Moria, the mighty work of our fathers. . .and they declared that, now at last, we had the power and numbers to return. . . Moria! Wonder of The Northern World. Too deep we delved there and woke the Nameless Fear. Long have its vast mansions lain empty since the children of Durin fled. But now we spoke of it again with longing, and yet with dread, for no Dwarf has dared pass the doors of Khazad-Dum for many lives of kings, save Thror only, and he perished. At last, however, Balin listened to the whispers and resolved to go. . ."
To fail to allude, as has been said and will be more thoroughly discussed in other threads, to the presence of The Balrog in these films, having brought in Moria, would present a continuity problem with Fellowship, and also make the demon's appeance and introduction in that film seem entirely contrived and inauthentic, especially considering Gandalf and Saruman's evident knowledge of him in the movie. To not acknowledge him as the original cause of the ruin of Khazad-Dum would ruin the history, and flatly contradict the companion books of the movies themselves, including the official Visual Guide for this current film. Yet how best to explain Balin returning, despite the Demon and Gandalf's knowledge? Some have mentioned the antiquity of the matter,and its legendary status as part of the reason. But I think this passage adds even greater heft. The possibility that Balin was NOT behaving entirely rationally (nor in a sanctioned manner, for latter in the passage it states that Balin's departure was never approved by Dain).
Shadow is almost constantly tied to Sauron (if not, much more rarely in LOTR, to The Balrog or to Morgoth himself). The Shadow of The Enemy, lying on distant lands. I wondered how much influence Sauron's malice and messengers could have in a distant land, and then recalled (among other things)the powerful spells and influence Saruman was able to work upon Theoden. Nothing so severe, of course, is to be expected regarding the Dwarves, but a shadow of discontent in the midst of the almost unbelievable good fortune of reclaiming Erebor. . . secret whisperings (by whom. . . spies of Sauron? the less savoury dwarves mentioned briefly in The Hobbit?) to feul that discontent, and drive it to the folly of looking prematurely to Moria. . . and then the matter of the tainted treasure of Erebor itself, tainted both by the fell spirit of the Dragon (the Dragonsickness seemed to work ill potency even after his fall), and the truth of the great treasure being at least partially founded upon (and thus doubtless in some way bound to) the power of a Great Ring: one of The Seven, and a Ring returned into the keeping of Sauron. Balin had also, witting or no, spent more than a short span of time in the presence of that Ring.
It seems highly likely that Balin's horrible decision was driven in no small part by outside influences, some of which he likely had no understanding or awareness of. Under that malign influence, and with the seemingly good augery of the all but unhoped for regaining of Erebor, as well as a reasonably large number of dwarves in his train ( Gloin says Balin went with "many of" their "folk") he seemingly defied both Dain's wishes and common sense, but in light of all of those things, his actions seem at least explicable, even in the face of a dreadful legend of a dreadful Being in Moria.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Súlimë
Rivendell
Jan 17 2013, 8:33am
Post #2 of 6
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I think I read somewhere that perhaps Gandalf doesn't know for sure that what lurks in Moria is indeed a Balrog. It seems that maybe none of the dwarves knew exactly what Durin's Bane was, and therefore after reclaiming Erebor, Moria just seemed the next step. (?)
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julia0925
The Shire
Jan 17 2013, 12:47pm
Post #3 of 6
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Perhaps Balin was also still grieving
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Balin must have been devastated by the loss of Thorin and his family; perhaps he saw reclaiming Moria as a fitting tribute to them. Along with all that shadow and darkness stuff.
As for the Balrog, in the books it appears that Gandalf and Aragorn are both in favor of going through the mines, it's just in the movie that Gandalf appears to know that his doom lies within.
-----
Lotr: You know it's been a bad day when even the elf is smudged.
TH: when the going gets tough, the tough call the eagles.
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Jan 17 2013, 1:59pm
Post #4 of 6
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Yes, and remember, Gandalf had been through Moria safely before...
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when searching for Thrain, and he presumably did not see any sgn of the Balrog then....
As for the Balrog, in the books it appears that Gandalf and Aragorn are both in favor of going through the mines, it's just in the movie that Gandalf appears to know that his doom lies within.
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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Aitieuriskon
Lorien
Jan 17 2013, 2:41pm
Post #5 of 6
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I think they purposefully left the Balrog out
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If we had the battle of Azanulbizar from the appendices played out exactly on screen as it did in the book, it certainly would have raised some eyebrows as to why Balin thought it safe to return despite an eyewitness at the battle actually slapping his eyes on the fiery beastie. As much as I absolutely love the appendices material (and fervently wish they put Azog's original dialogue into his or some other orc's mouth in the EE or one of the subsequent films) I have come to terms with certain changes made.
I am pretty confident that we haven't seen the last of Moria, however. As we know from the Weta Chronicles book, this is where Thrain goes missing and is presumably captured. I think we'll see the interior of the mines once again, and perhaps the Balrog (or at least a hint of it).
"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Jan 17 2013, 5:03pm
Post #6 of 6
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In the books that is true, but not in the movies. In these movies, he DEFINITELY knows.
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The Dwarves are another matter. It is likely that they never knew exactly what it was, only that it/he was horrible and beyond there power to defend against. I think I read somewhere that perhaps Gandalf doesn't know for sure that what lurks in Moria is indeed a Balrog. It seems that maybe none of the dwarves knew exactly what Durin's Bane was, and therefore after reclaiming Erebor, Moria just seemed the next step. (?)
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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