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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Late for the party

sador
Valinor


Jan 16 2013, 10:52am


Views: 256
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Late for the party [In reply to] Can't Post

This has become quite a Christianity thread! I must take care to tread softly...
I'll follow your questions as best as I can.


In Reply To

Googling various creation myths, I didn’t come up with any that were based on music, so Tolkien wins the innovation prize. Or prove me wrong: does anyone know of a creation story based on music? (I read one argument that Genesis was meant to be sung or chanted, but that’s not the same.)


Just two short notes:
1. The choir of angels Gardner mention originally comes from Isaiah 6:3; however, as squire said, this is post-creation. A much better comparison would be to Job 38:4-6.
2. In A Cultural Phenomenon, Brian Rosebury discusses the Ainulindale as a creation story, contrasting it with Hobbes' Leviathan. Very interesting stuff! A summary and discussion can be found here.


In Reply To
Eru is given no beginning, but the Ainur have one and come from his thought. Any ideas on why he didn’t sing them into existence?

Who said he didn't? He modulated frequencies, out of which the Ainur came to being. There were no ears present to identify it as music - but was there, or wasn't there, the matter in which the waves would create sound?
Does it matter?


In Reply To
It’s not simple music: “Sing! A world!” Instead it’s a dramatic story of competing themes, where original beauty and harmony clash with vanity and discord in a near-war. Not only does the Great Music create, it spells out the fate of the world and its peoples. On first read, I was confused by the complexity of all this, but now I enjoy it. What’s your first reaction?


My first reaction? Confused is not enough to describe it. I was completely bemused - by all of the book.


In Reply To
Why do you suppose Tolkien chose Manwe as the king of the world over Ulmo? Was he bowing to the influence of Norse and Greek myths that had the thunder/sky god as First God?

Water is after all a part of earth. The sky encompasses it.
The Music lives most strongly in the Sea, because it is the best medium to preserve it. That's all.


In Reply To
Do waterfalls and ocean waves sound musical to you, or is their sound their own and unrelated to music?


I think they do.
At any rate, their sound is not their own - it is a part of the greater harmony of the World, of Nature, of G-d if you like.


In Reply To
Melkor’s sins: secrecy, pride, lust for power. What would you add?

Someone wrote that the problem is not secrecy but deception. I agree.



In Reply To
What else would you add?


He adheres to classical theodicy: Eru is good. And His good is shown to the utmost in granting His creatures the freedom to act independently, even for evil. But in the end, He somehow mysteriously turns even that evil to the greater good.


In Reply To
Bonus question: if you wrote a creation story, what would you base it on? Cooking? Painting? Manufacturing? Computers? Laughter?


Those are some interesting ideas! But I'm really not into this kind of stories.

Subject User Time
The Silmarillion discussion: Ainulindale CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Dec 31 2012, 3:38am
    Thanks for kicking this off, CuriousG! Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Dec 31 2012, 4:14am
        Why not sing the Aunur? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Dec 31 2012, 10:22pm
            Tolkien seemed to have the same sentiments about evil CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Dec 31 2012, 10:31pm
                Where it starts... noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Dec 31 2012, 10:53pm
        Nice--thought to music to sound CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 1 2013, 10:30pm
            Ulmo Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jan 2 2013, 5:15pm
                Sorry, I wasn't clear CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 2 2013, 6:37pm
                    Well, no... Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jan 4 2013, 12:41am
        Regarding Ulmo Cyberia Send a private message to Cyberia Jan 2 2013, 8:09am
            I actually don't see the similarity Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jan 2 2013, 5:19pm
        saying Eä Oiotári Send a private message to Oiotári Jan 12 2013, 9:32pm
    Hark to those herald angels singing squire Send a private message to squire Jan 1 2013, 2:35pm
        Excellent point CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 1 2013, 10:04pm
            Stop me if you've heard this one, O Muse squire Send a private message to squire Jan 2 2013, 7:19pm
                Excellent insight--many thanks! // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 2 2013, 8:14pm
        Another sung creation- the Kalevala noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 3 2013, 4:54pm
        Creation is song The Gardener Send a private message to The Gardener Jan 5 2013, 6:00am
            Where's Eve? Or Varda? CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 5 2013, 7:40am
                No women were mentioned by name Oiotári Send a private message to Oiotári Jan 12 2013, 8:45pm
            Worship of Creation is song squire Send a private message to squire Jan 5 2013, 2:49pm
    Should have read the brochure? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 1 2013, 7:14pm
        It does strike me every time I read it CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 1 2013, 9:25pm
        If we read that passage, perhaps it is not so clear Oiotári Send a private message to Oiotári Jan 12 2013, 9:02pm
            I wonder about Tulkas leaving CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 16 2013, 3:30am
    Modern myth from modern things Mim Send a private message to Mim Jan 1 2013, 7:42pm
        Thanks--great points, especially CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 1 2013, 9:21pm
        myth and music (and Manwe) telain Send a private message to telain Jan 8 2013, 6:11pm
    I wonder if the creation myth of Arda was analogous to Plurmo Send a private message to Plurmo Jan 2 2013, 3:26am
    He was not far off of reality either............ Eruonen Send a private message to Eruonen Jan 4 2013, 9:31pm
    Tolkien's Representation of the Trinity KingTurgon Send a private message to KingTurgon Jan 4 2013, 9:45pm
        Jesus is Jesus Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jan 4 2013, 10:12pm
        For JRRT the events of ME were prior to Eruonen Send a private message to Eruonen Jan 4 2013, 11:18pm
        Gandalf, in some ways CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 4 2013, 11:32pm
            Allegories - Contrast to The Lord of the Rings? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 5 2013, 9:03am
                Earlier post KingTurgon Send a private message to KingTurgon Jan 7 2013, 8:25pm
        Jesus Aragalen the Green Send a private message to Aragalen the Green Jan 6 2013, 5:56pm
            Interesting idea- glad you posted it // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 6 2013, 7:09pm
            I know this isn't really a religion thread, but... Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jan 6 2013, 8:02pm
                Maybe "reluctant" isn't quite right, Aragalen the Green Send a private message to Aragalen the Green Jan 6 2013, 8:41pm
                    Ah that passage Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jan 6 2013, 11:20pm
            Everyone's welcome to join in CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 6 2013, 9:14pm
                Thank you, and my apologies to Ardamire Aragalen the Green Send a private message to Aragalen the Green Jan 6 2013, 10:19pm
    Without wishing to curtail this discussion- what are our plans for the next chapter? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 6 2013, 10:15pm
        We can take turns. Whoever wants to do the Valaquenta, just say so, and post when you'd like.// CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 6 2013, 10:28pm
            Didn't get my edit inserted in time. More info: CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 6 2013, 10:51pm
                I will take the Reading Room to Valaquenta, though I... do not know the way. :) noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jan 7 2013, 1:02pm
    A Beautiful Creation Aragalen the Green Send a private message to Aragalen the Green Jan 6 2013, 10:24pm
    I looove this "chapter" Oiotári Send a private message to Oiotári Jan 11 2013, 6:20am
        Good point about no one to sing to CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jan 16 2013, 3:28am
    Late for the party sador Send a private message to sador Jan 16 2013, 10:52am

 
 
 

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