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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The big showdown
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Fellow
Registered User

Jan 11 2013, 9:23am

Post #1 of 31 (1068 views)
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The big showdown Can't Post

...between FOTR and AUJ.
Who wins in a battle between the 'comparable' scenes? (since they follow much of the same basic structure)

Maybe a little silly:-) But here goes, just for the fun of it:

Ring prolouge vs. Erebor prolouge (my winner here is rings prolouge. not by far, but still)

FOTR shire/bag-end stuff vs. AUJ shire/bag-end stuff (can't pick one. A draw for me)

First fight with an enemy: Weathertop vs. trollshaws (not sure this is the right comparison, but to me it makes sense being the first actual psysical clash with an enemy) (trollshaws for me)

Nazgul chase vas. warg chase (nazgul)

FOTR Rivendell vs. AUJ Rivendell (loved Frodo seeing Bilbo in fotr, but council of elrond was a mess and the WC slightly better. therefore I am going with AUJ)

Caradras vs. stone giants (a draw for me)

Moria vs. goblin town (Moria. Unless you count the riddles part of the goblin town sequence, but that doesn't really make sense)

Climax: Breaking of the Fellwship vs. Out of the Frying Pan (no way to compete with boromir's death and the breaking of fellowship. That climax is just SOO much stronger - and for me the strongest in all the films)

For me that's 4 points for FOTR, 2 for AUJ and 2 draws. What do you think? (and maybe there are other scenes to compare??)

/Fellow


imin
Valinor


Jan 11 2013, 9:51am

Post #2 of 31 (430 views)
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I can just see this thread causing arguments, lol [In reply to] Can't Post

My votes.

1. Ring prologue vs. Erebor prologue - both good but Ring for me - didnt like the Thranduil paying homage part.

2. FOTR Shire/Bag-end vs AUJ Shire/Bag-end - AUJ - i know the critics didnt like it but for me it had some of the best scenes from the movie in the time spent in Bag-end and some of the best from all four films.

3. Weathertop vs Trollshaws - Weathertop but its close

4. Nazgul vs Warg chase - Nazgul

5. FOTR Rivendell vs. AUJ Rivendell - FOTR - it felt bigger and was better to me other than Elrond was a million times better in AUJ.

6. Caradhras vs. Stone giants - easily Caradhras for me

7. Moria vs. Goblin town - Moria - felt and looked real, Goblin town was just fake, though i liked some of the stuff Great Goblin said and i liked the little deformed goblin.

8. FOTR climax vs AUJ climax - easily FOTR, sean bean is a fantastic actor and the only film character i think is better than the book character (maybe :P)

FOTR - 7
AUJ - 1

Seems like a massive difference in score but other than Moria and Caradhras the other scores were close.


DanielLB
Immortal


Jan 11 2013, 9:58am

Post #3 of 31 (409 views)
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I'd say FOTR wins all those categories [In reply to] Can't Post

But that's not to say that I don't like AUJ or think that AUJ isn't very good.

They're two very different films.

Smile


TheBladeGlowsBlue
Rivendell


Jan 11 2013, 10:13am

Post #4 of 31 (407 views)
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Here's mine [In reply to] Can't Post

Ring prologue vs. Erebor prologue - Erebor. The sheer scale of the kingdom, with Smaug appearing even more powerful than Sauron (in the brief glimpses we see of him) just edges it for me.

FOTR shire/bag-end stuff vs. AUJ shire/bag-end stuff - AUJ wins, again only by a small margin...

First fight with an enemy: Weathertop vs. trollshaws - Weathertop by a mile. Trollshaws was a comedy, Weathertop was creepy and scary!

Nazgul chase vas. warg chase (nazgul) Nazgul by a mile. One of my favourite scenes in all 4 movies so far.

FOTR Rivendell vs. AUJ Rivendell - FOTR. Apart from Saruman and Galadriel making an appearance AUJ felt a little rushed.

Caradras vs. stone giants Caradras for me. This was close though!

Moria vs. goblin town - Moria. Goblin Town felt like watching the Goonies.

Climax: Breaking of the Fellowship vs. Out of the Frying Pan - BOTF. Impossible for AUJ to compete with FOTR on that one, although the thrush sequence and the awakening of Smaug was quite brilliant.

My score:

FOTR 6
AUJ 2

Smile

Maegnas aen estar nin dagnir in yngyl im


CathrineB
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 10:18am

Post #5 of 31 (389 views)
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My little list [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Ring prologue vs. Erebor prologue - Depends on what version I watch AUJ. With 3D 48ftp (?) the Erebor scene was terribly painfully bad to watch, but it was cool in 2D. I'd say both because one does not simply push LotR aside

2. FOTR Shire/Bag-end vs AUJ Shire/Bag-end - AUJ without doubt. I love FotR too, but the AUJ scenes in the Shire is more fun.

3. Weathertop vs Trollshaws - Trollshaws by miles

4. Nazgul vs Warg chase - Tie. To me both these scenes are brilliant! I can't pick!

5. FOTR Rivendell vs. AUJ Rivendell
- I'd say FotR here, but AUJ was shorter and although Rivendell is beautiful it's kinda... a stand still place. Resting place.

6. Caradhras vs. Stone giants - AUJ's stone giants. What can I say? I loved it. The little moment between Fili and Kili, the effects... I can understand people finding it over the top, but I can bear it.

7. Moria vs. Goblin town - FOTR a lot because of the music. But I loved Goblin Town too actually.

8. FOTR climax vs AUJ climax - Tie. In FotR it's one of the most beautiful settings to me and the fight is just brilliant. But AUJ's end is my favorite part of the book and I loved it on film so therefore tie. Love both equally.

AUJ - 3
FotR - 2
A tie - 3

I just love both movie ok? Heart



herzogian
Bree

Jan 11 2013, 10:24am

Post #6 of 31 (393 views)
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Fotr vs Auj [In reply to] Can't Post

Ring prolouge vs. Erebor prolouge. Erebor was good, Ring almost perfect. (1-0)

Fotr shire/ bag-end stuff. This is a harder one, I enjoyed them both. no clear winner. They both get points (2-1)

First fight with an enemy: Weathertop vs. trollshaws I liked the trollscene. But the fight with the nazgul on weathertop is stronger from a cinematic viewpoint. And also much more exciting. (3-1)

Nazgul Chase-Warg Chase. warg chase was realy poor and the Nazgul chase well done with a good climax at the end. The threat of the Nazgul was bigger. (4-1)

FOTR Rivendell vs. AUJ Rivendell A tie. But when you compare council to Elrond to the White council i go for the first one. Didnt find it a mess at all.Boromirs 'One does not simply walk into mordor' has even become a famous quote. Dont think the WC will achieve this. So the points go to FOTR (5-1)

Caradras vs. stone giants. Stone Giants could have been better. Caradras felt more like a real threat. (6-1)

Moria vs Goblin town. Moria clear winner. (7-1)

Climax: Breaking of the Fellwship vs. Out of the Frying Pan . Boromirs death and the meeting of Sam and Frodo in the water was very touching. Out of the Frying pan with all its pomp, eagles,fire, Azog and its wargs, doesnt come close to it. (8-1)

So 8-1 in favor of Fotr Short conclusion: Auj was nice but it doesnt come close to Fotr




(This post was edited by herzogian on Jan 11 2013, 10:26am)


arithmancer
Grey Havens

Jan 11 2013, 1:25pm

Post #7 of 31 (304 views)
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Tough choices! [In reply to] Can't Post

Ring prolouge vs. Erebor prolouge - I'd go with FotR too. But it's an impossible hurdle for AUJ really, AUJ's prologue was wonderful as well but, well, it is not the history of my beloved Middle-Earth, just a cool piece of it. Also I liked the start, with Cate Blanchett's voice-over, in an Elvish language (sorry, don't speak any Wink).

FOTR shire/bag-end stuff vs. AUJ shire/bag-end stuff - AUJ wins hands down, it falls short of perfection only for the frame going on a bit long. From Good Morning on, as far as I am concerned it IS perfect. Does a great job introducing the characters, has great funny moments (including a singing of the plates song!!), and has the Misty Mountain song, which is one of *the* iconic moments of the movies so far for me.

First fight with an enemy: Weathertop vs. trollshaws - I am surprised how many people choose the trolls easily here. Aragorn leaping into the fray, and chasing off the Nazgul, makes this a difficult choice for me. I think I would pick the Trolls, but it is a squeaker!

Nazgul chase vas. warg chase - Yes, Flight to the Ford for me too. That was great (and I liked Arwen's inclusion in it as a movie change).

FOTR Rivendell vs. AUJ Rivendell (loved Frodo seeing Bilbo in fotr, but council of elrond was a mess and the WC slightly better. therefore I am going with AUJ)

Caradhras vs. stone giants-the Giants for me. Not only for their special effectness, the scene and its aftermath has some great character moments.

Moria vs. goblin town (Moria. Unless you count the riddles part of the goblin town sequence, but that doesn't really make sense) : I agree, Moria. I love, Love, LOVE this sequence in FotR. I love the look of Moria, the battle at Balin;s Tomb, the amazing staurs falling down sequence, and Balrog vs. Gandalf. (Without Riddles, Goblin Town is not that long...)

But if we are going to compare the movies, we can hardly do so fairly without somehow accounting for Riddles/Bilbo's mercy, another candidate for Best Scene In AUJ.

Climax: Breaking of the Fellwship vs. Out of the Frying Pan - Argh, another impossible choice. There is so much that happens in that FotR scene. Boromir's death, Aragorn's awesomeness, Sam following Frodo...sigh. I don't think i can choose, because this is my personal favorite scene of AUJ.


stoutfiles
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 1:27pm

Post #8 of 31 (314 views)
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Yes, FOTR is better than AUJ in most regards [In reply to] Can't Post

It is discomforting to see just how many scenes are relatively the same, and only becaause PJ altered the books to make it so. It's like he's following a formula.


BeornBerserker
Lorien

Jan 11 2013, 2:08pm

Post #9 of 31 (285 views)
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tie [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Ring prologue vs. Erebor prologue - AUJ

2. FOTR Shire/Bag-end vs AUJ Shire/Bag-end -
AUJ

3. Weathertop vs Trollshaws -
AUJ

4. Nazgul vs Warg chase -
FotR

5. FOTR Rivendell vs. AUJ Rivendell -
FotR

6. Caradhras vs. Stone giants -
FotR

7. Moria vs. Goblin town -
FotR

8. FOTR climax vs AUJ climax -
AUJ

For me its a tie 4-4



Arannir
Valinor

Jan 11 2013, 2:16pm

Post #10 of 31 (278 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

Ring prolouge vs. Erebor prolouge: Draw

FOTR shire/bag-end stuff vs. AUJ shire/bag-end stuff: AUJ

First fight with an enemy: Weathertop vs. trollshaws: FotR

Nazgul chase vas. warg chase: AUJ (now, stone me)

FOTR Rivendell vs. AUJ Rivendell: FotR

Caradras vs. stone giants: Draw (both are among the weakest scenes of their respective films imho)

Moria vs. goblin town: FotR

Climax: Breaking of the Fellwship vs. Out of the Frying Pan: This is emotionally too different to me... so I cannot decide on this one, not even to say it is a draw.


Draw: 2
FotR: 3
AUJ: 2


But I honetsly don't care.


I wanted to have a movie that I can put on the same shelve with my LotR movies... and that is what I got.


Kullervo
Rivendell


Jan 11 2013, 2:39pm

Post #11 of 31 (269 views)
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It's a tie for me [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Ring prologue vs. Erebor prologue - Tie. Both are amazing, the AUJ prologue being the more awinspiring, but the fotr has the benefit of being the history of the ring.

2. FOTR Shire/Bag-end vs AUJ Shire/Bag-end -
AUJ, but not by much and only after the Frodo cameo, wich I thought was the only scene I would have cut from the movie. But Bilbo meeting Gandalf and the dwarves and then the whole Unexpected Party was perfection.

3. Weathertop vs Trollshaws - I'm gonna call this one a tie.
It's just really difficult to compare these two, beacause they are tonally so different.

4. Nazgul vs Warg chase -
FotR. Altough I love the bunny sled.Smile

5. FOTR Rivendell vs. AUJ Rivendell -
Another tie. Altough AUJ might get this after the EE, if we have just a little more Bilbo in Rivendell.

6. Caradhras vs. Stone giants -
AUJ. I admit that the Stone giants didn't add much to the story, but it was just so amazing to look at.

7. Moria vs. Goblin town -
If you count the riddles scene, then it's a tie.

8. FOTR climax vs AUJ climax -
FotR. Altough, again, not by much. AUJ's climax is more grand and spectacular with the eagles, but FotR takes it by a tear drop.


So, over all it's a tie for me.



Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Jan 11 2013, 3:07pm

Post #12 of 31 (267 views)
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It's a very different film... [In reply to] Can't Post

..it's a different shark!

(Sorry, just reminded me of Father Dougal's Jaws/Jaws2 discussion).


Oscarilbo
Lorien


Jan 11 2013, 3:27pm

Post #13 of 31 (250 views)
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I think... [In reply to] Can't Post

It would be very interesting to find people who haven't seen LOTR trilogy, and The Hobbit AUJ was their first Middle Earth experience, and hear what they have to say after the seeing the whole thing in chronological order, or at least the LOTR trilogy just after AUJ.

The majority of us are definitely affected by nostalgia and preconceived ideas.

"The World is Changed, I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air"


DanielLB
Immortal


Jan 11 2013, 3:43pm

Post #14 of 31 (239 views)
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I think people would be *very* confused [In reply to] Can't Post

Especially when it comes down to the Dol Guldur sub-plot, with heaps of answered questions. I think the history of the Dwarves and the purpose of the Quest is easy enough to understand straight away.


Arthael
Lorien


Jan 11 2013, 4:39pm

Post #15 of 31 (208 views)
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FOTR beats AUJ 6-1 for me [In reply to] Can't Post

I thoroughly enjoyed AUJ, and plan to see it a 3rd time this week. But it's really not all that great of a movie. Great story, great characters, but poor handling of almost every scene. No tension and only a few moments of drama in a 2:40 movie. Here's my rundown though. I give my reasons!

Ring prolouge vs. Erebor prolouge: Definitely Rings, that battle was too epic. And it didn't have AWFUL lines like "Where sickness lingers, bad things happen" (or whatever the exact phrasing was). Although Smaug was great.

FOTR shire/bag-end stuff vs. AUJ shire/bag-end stuff: That's tough! I miiiiiight have to go with AUJ. The Dwarves we're great!

First fight with an enemy: Weathertop vs. trollshaws : definitely Weathertop. Those ringwraiths we're creepy!! Trollshaws was entertaining, mostly because it was funny.

Nazgul chase vas. warg chase : Nazgul chase, no competition. The warg "chase" where the dwarves lightly jogged around and the wargs caught up to them and stood barking instead of posing a threat goes down as one of the worst chase scenes I've ever seen. Although the Elves coming to the recuse was pretty cool and (almost) saved the scene for me.

FOTR Rivendell vs. AUJ Rivendell : I loved the sequence in AUJ, but FotR just had more to offer: Narsil, "by the blood of our people are your lands kept safe", "you have my sword", Old Bilbo, and of course "one does not simply walk into Mordor". While I do prefer AUJ's Elrond, and I loved the "cameos" (especially Sir Lee's) and the dwarves hating the food, overall there just wasn't much drama.

Caradras vs. stone giants : Caradras. Stone giants went on for too long, I got bored both times I saw it.

Moria vs. goblin town : Moria. Better lit, better shot, more frenetic action, actual "peril". Goblin town feels like an amusement park ride: fun, but no sense of danger. The Goblin king was great tho, and I loved his Salacious Crumb scribe.

Climax: Breaking of the Fellwship vs. Out of the Frying Pan : I would've liked Out of the Frying Pan a lot better if it didn't try so dang hard to be the Breaking of the Fellowship. Arrogant but brave hero runs in slow motion towards bad orc. He tries his best but is defeated. He's about to be killed when, out of nowhere, another hero tackles the orc!! They fight and our second hero just barely wins. There wasn't a single original beat in that whole sequence, everything felt redundant, which made it really disappointing for me. I did like Gandalf's pinecombs! And Thorin standing up and running down the tree to the (out of place yet) thunderous music was one of the few moments in the film where I really didn't know what was going to happen! It actually gave me chills the second time. But GAHHHHH I wish the whole scene hadn't been in slo-mo! Straight melodrama instead of actual drama. Also, I wish Azog didn't stop say "kill them" 3 freakin times in the scene, constantly stopping the battle to look menacing and killing any and all tension. Overall a pretty poorly executed scene IMO. But that's just the film making. The thematic content is great, but it just wasn't pulled off to it's fullest potential.

AUJ : 1
FOTR : 6




"There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go."


burrahobbit
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 4:58pm

Post #16 of 31 (204 views)
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It's been made for the LotR audience [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with DanielLB that watching The Hobbit trilogy before LotR would be really confusing. Who is Frodo? Who is Galadriel and Saruman? Who is Sauron? What's it got to do with Bilbo?

In fact not only would it be confusing, it would rather spoil the great introduction that characters like Galadriel and Saruman get in Fellowship of the Ring where their whole character is wonderfully defined through the scenery of Isengard and Lorien.

It would make more sense for new viewers to start with LotR.

(This post was edited by burrahobbit on Jan 11 2013, 4:59pm)


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Jan 11 2013, 5:11pm

Post #17 of 31 (189 views)
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Easy choices [In reply to] Can't Post

FOTR wins everything hands down.

I'm not hating Hobbit, it's just not that great.


Rostron2
Gondor


Jan 11 2013, 5:15pm

Post #18 of 31 (187 views)
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My votes [In reply to] Can't Post

It in no way implies that I think AUJ wasn't a great film anyway, but here's the same point-by-point:

The real trouble is that they very different stories, and one has 'world crisis' implications versus a treasure hunt with some overtones to the War of the Ring. You have to consider that in judging or comparing these films, and the Hobbit will always come off worse, because it's an unfair comparison. However, for comparison of execution of the scenes themselves:

Ring prologue vs. Erebor prologue: FOTR by a hair. It's also more of an epic story as above

FOTR shire/bag-end stuff vs. AUJ shire/bag-end stuff: I actually like TH slightly more now.

Weathertop vs. trollshaws: Trollshaws is much more interesting, partly because the Nazgul are not 'new' when we meet them at Weathertop. The four hobbits and Aragorn have been hunted for a while.

Nazgul chase vas. warg chase: Nazgul horse chase to the Fords of Bruinen

FOTR Rivendell vs. AUJ Rivendell: FOTR. The Council was a bit muddled, but it still has some fine moments, esp. 'I will take it...' and Gandalf's reaction. That's worth accepting the rest of it. (Just who were those other men anyway???)

Caradhras vs. stone giants: Caradhras. The stone giants were over-the-top. Nice work for the CGI people, but Caradhras seemed more realistically dangerous.

Moria vs. goblin town: Moria. The balrog still holds up well, but again, it's a dramatic scene.

Climax: Breaking of the Fellowship vs. Out of the Frying Pan: Breaking/FOTR
.


So, (unfair) score: Fellowship: 6
An Unexpected Journey: 2


MorgolKing
Rivendell

Jan 11 2013, 5:24pm

Post #19 of 31 (185 views)
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My Count: FoTR 5, AUJ 3. [In reply to] Can't Post

Fun topic. Interestingly, where AUJ wins, it's generally a close call, but where FoTR wins it's much better than the AUJ counterpart.

My thoughts:

1. Ring prologue vs. Erebor prologue (AUJ, barely) - I love both prologues, and they are among my favorite scenes in the franchise. The Ring prologue benefits from the weight of the subject matter (the history of the Ring) and the battle in front of Mt. Doom is epic, but Erebor obviously benefits from new technology, seems longer, takes us into Erebor, and introduces us to Smaug.

2. FOTR Shire/Bag-end vs AUJ Shire/Bag-end (AUJ): This was also a close one. But Dwarves are awesome and Merry can be annoying, notwithstanding his short presence in the shire scene

3. Weathertop vs Trollshaws - (AUJ). Not so close. Aragorn throwing his torch into a Nazgul's face was over the top. Troll carrying away ponies to eat them was very disturbing and amazing to watch.

4. Nazgul vs Warg chase - (FOTR) This one is easy too. Nazgul chasing Frodo with that epic score v. the bunny sled? Not even close.

5. FOTR Rivendell vs. AUJ Rivendell - (FOTR) Again, not even close. Elrond's council was absolutely amazing. The White Council scene was one I'd like to forget -- and I was really looking forward to seeing Saruman again.

6. Caradhras vs. Stone giants - (FOTR) another easy call. Caradrhas was very well executed. The Stone Giant seemed unnecssary.

7. Moria vs. Goblin town - (FOTR) - again no contest. While the Goblin Town was constructed beautifully the scenes shot there contained too much "goofiness".

8. FOTR climax vs AUJ climax - (FoTR) Again, pretty easy to choose this one. Although I didn' thate the AUJ climax like others did.


Oscarilbo
Lorien


Jan 11 2013, 5:47pm

Post #20 of 31 (172 views)
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well.. [In reply to] Can't Post

but that's more sense for us, who loved LOTR trilogy already, but things change no matter what, and what was a marvelous intro for us, isn't going to be for the rest of the public until the end of times. The reality is that is not a rule, and PJ will not be asking new audience to watch LOTR first. Many new generations are gonna experience The Hobbit trilogy first, and when all is set and done, newer audience are gonna watch, by common sense, the whole thing from the beginning, by the first chapter.

So PJ is making for both, LOTR audience and new audience. and let me tell you, a friend of mine never saw LOTR and decided to see The Hobbit, and he simply loved it. He cannot wait for the nex two, and just after that he decided he will be continuing with the LOTR trilogy.

"The World is Changed, I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air"


DanielLB
Immortal


Jan 11 2013, 5:50pm

Post #21 of 31 (165 views)
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It's great that your friend enjoyed it [In reply to] Can't Post

And has now moved on to the LOTR trilogy. That's great news. I fear not everyone does that though ... I can imagine some people coming out of the cinema being beyond confused, and not bothering with TH or LOTR ever again. Crazy


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Jan 11 2013, 5:55pm

Post #22 of 31 (152 views)
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Not sure about that [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Many new generations are gonna experience The Hobbit trilogy first, and when all is set and done, newer audience are gonna watch, by common sense, the whole thing from the beginning, by the first chapter.


Many might very well check out what came first, so LOTR. I would.


Oscarilbo
Lorien


Jan 11 2013, 5:57pm

Post #23 of 31 (152 views)
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well... [In reply to] Can't Post

yes... that's going to happen. As happened with LOTR trilogy also after Fellowship, and with all movies for that matter, and through the passing of time it will lost more and gain more also.

There's always going to be someone who just don't get it, at least not as we certainly did. But I guess that's part of what makes you feel special about it.

"The World is Changed, I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air"


Oscarilbo
Lorien


Jan 11 2013, 6:00pm

Post #24 of 31 (154 views)
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yes... [In reply to] Can't Post

of course that's going to happen too. What I mean is that here are not rules, and people are going to watch them in the order that makes the more sense to them. For some will be LOTR first, for other Hobbit first.

"The World is Changed, I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air"


DanielLB
Immortal


Jan 11 2013, 6:06pm

Post #25 of 31 (136 views)
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I know what you mean [In reply to] Can't Post

But I think people would come out of FOTR, and not bother again with the films/books because they didn't like the story (rather than not understanding the characters and plot). FOTR has all the introductions (unlike AUJ), so people (hopefully) weren't (/aren't) confused by who's who (and where they've come from, where they are going etc).


(This post was edited by DanielLB on Jan 11 2013, 6:15pm)

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