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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Yeah. . . that is almost certainly not standard variety fire glowing in The East Gate. . .Durin's Bane seems right.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 7:25am

Post #1 of 47 (1201 views)
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Yeah. . . that is almost certainly not standard variety fire glowing in The East Gate. . .Durin's Bane seems right. Can't Post

And please, no arguments as to whether or not he should be noted. I'll deal more with that, and the continuity problems of not doing so in another thread, later, when the earlier one on that topic has had sufficient time to dissapear into forgotten archives.

Here I am only dealing with what may or may not have been seen as Azog is carted away into Moria. There is a mighty fire in the distant background of The East Gate, and a fearsome glow all along the gates interior and reaching back into the halls. Such dramatic backlighting is not required for Azog's removal. And it isn't the product of any small fire. No normal bonfire would put forth that much light, and even the fires on the battle field do not do so. Also, why would there be such a fire burning within the gate or hall? The dwarves had not advanced so far, and it seems counterintuitive for the orcs/goblins to have set "their own" chambers aflame without having yet lost the battle and without having themselves abandoned the halls. The glow bears greatest resemblance to what we first saw of The Balrog when he begins his pursuit of the Fellowship and frightens the goblins/orcs into flight by his coming. It hues with the appendices (much better than Azog surviving, in fact), and would, if expanded, add to continuity, but again, I don't want to discuss all that here. Merely the gate and the light therein.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Jan 11 2013, 8:22am

Post #2 of 47 (638 views)
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The Balrog [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen the movie twice, and I didn't notice. I was even thinking about the Balrog on my second viewing, and still didn't notice the glow. I was even thinking, Jackson should have referenced the Balrog, but he didn't. I was only thinking narrative and not the visuals.

Even if there was a glow, there's still a chance that it is all you will ever see or hear of it. In some movies, just when you think something is a foreshadow, the director either doesn't follow up, seemingly forgets, or intentionally leaves it at that. That would be a shame.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 8:56am

Post #3 of 47 (559 views)
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I know what you mean, and I have the same hopes as you do, [In reply to] Can't Post

but I try to stay away from expectations. But, my next viewing of the movie will be my 7th, and I have also had looked at the odd youtube clip of certain sections, including the battle of Azanulbizar. My girlfriend has done much the same. We are both certain about the glow. The next time you go, focus on The East Gate as Azog is being carried in, or in a youtube clip. The gate is ALL aglow, as is the inner hall, and you can glimpse flames within just under Azog's thigh arm as he is being carried off. And it is a substantial glow, much more than a campfire, for example would cast. Check it out and then discuss it with me further when you have a chance,.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


imin
Valinor


Jan 11 2013, 9:02am

Post #4 of 47 (529 views)
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I saw the glow both times i went [In reply to] Can't Post

I just instantly figured it was Durin's Bane and then thought nothing more of it.


DanielLB
Immortal


Jan 11 2013, 9:05am

Post #5 of 47 (640 views)
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In the WETA Chronicles book [In reply to] Can't Post

The painting of the Battle has very obvious fire/flames/red glow coming from the Gate. I can't remember who the artist was, but as soon as I saw that in the book, it screamed "balrog".

Perhaps there was a mention of it in the film originally, but it was cut?


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 11 2013, 9:07am

Post #6 of 47 (536 views)
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I saw that too. [In reply to] Can't Post

Though in the book the fire seems almost to be on the verge of issuing out of the gate, which would suggest him being closer to the entrance than the movie does, if the movie is indeed intending to be hinting at him there. I hope the matter is further sorted, but that is a topic for another thread. Wink

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


TFP
Rivendell


Jan 11 2013, 11:35am

Post #7 of 47 (512 views)
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It very much looks like DB. [In reply to] Can't Post

It does seem to be, yes.

Earlier today I looked at a video on youtube [which I found by googling 'battle of the east gate of moria'] showing it reasonably clearly at the 3-minute mark.

Incidentally I never quite understood why the balrog would be skulking just inside, close enough to the front door to be seen by Dain, like an oversized Boo Radley, rather than pitching into the battle.


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 11 2013, 11:46am

Post #8 of 47 (509 views)
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There would be little point [In reply to] Can't Post

I have no idea whether the flames are meant to insinuate the Balrog's presence or not, but if they are, I'm quite certain that it's all that we're going to see of that creature. Showing more would make nothing but a pointless cameo appearance and leave the audience expecting a confrontation with a monster that never plays into the main plot. Even in an extended film series that tries to cram in every reference it possibly can every scene needs to serve the plot in some manner. With the Balrog it would be nothing but a moment of: "oh, there's a Balrog, moving on". It wouldn't serve any purpose. If the scenes of Moria are extended to involve more details about why the dwarves didn't press on, I would very much prefer a minimalistic approach where Thrain (or Thorin) looks inside the gates, but the viewers don't see what he is looking at, and then comes back, visibly shaken and unwilling to explain what he saw. That kind of scene would work far better than the most impressively rendered Balrog cameo could ever hope for.


stoutfiles
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 1:43pm

Post #9 of 47 (434 views)
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That could still happen [In reply to] Can't Post

We may go back to the battle to learn more about Dain, and they show his reaction to seeing the Balrog.

If they actually show the Balrog I will be upset. That is a great reveal that The Hobbit should not ruin. It's like the Star Wars prequels ruining all the great reveals in the original trilogy.


MorgolKing
Rivendell

Jan 11 2013, 2:29pm

Post #10 of 47 (399 views)
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Right [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Incidentally I never quite understood why the balrog would be skulking just inside, close enough to the front door to be seen by Dain, like an oversized Boo Radley, rather than pitching into the battle.


I agree...never really understood that.


Ave Moria
Rivendell


Jan 11 2013, 3:11pm

Post #11 of 47 (375 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

Fact:

Moria doesn't just randomly GLOW that way unless the Balrog is present. Perhaps the chaos and din of the battle attracted him?

The shot where Azog is dragged away wounded clearly shows the inner halls glowing with Balrog mojo.

Perhaps a brief reveal on the EE?Wink

-In the Darkness, a torch we hold-


Arthael
Lorien


Jan 11 2013, 3:48pm

Post #12 of 47 (360 views)
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yeah it's a huge image [In reply to] Can't Post

but a subtle one. if you're not looking for it, you wouldn't give it a second thought.

if nothing else, it gives the scene some nice ambiance! haha

"There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go."


xxxyyy
Rohan

Jan 11 2013, 5:14pm

Post #13 of 47 (312 views)
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Exactly, that would be another continuity error. No Balrog needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

The Balrog being there at the gate, the orcs fighting the enemy and he stays right there... what was he doing?
When the dwarves won, did the Balrog flee crying inside Moria?
Balin clearly said the battle is won, so the enemy is deafeated, so no Balrog there.
I guess Tolkien himself did a "little" misstep there.
Watching the clip I see fires all over the battle ground, but they are not fires caused by battle, they are just there to illuminate things.
In Moria, at night, there's pitch black, so at the gate we see just a fire needed to have an environment for the orcs to live and fight the approaching enemy.
Also, that fire might be caused by the battle itself, dwarves could be there fighting their way in.
But the Balrog... being there rolling his thumbs... makes no sense.

http://energyfromthorium.com/


Rostron2
Gondor


Jan 11 2013, 5:30pm

Post #14 of 47 (312 views)
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I don't see it happening...no way [In reply to] Can't Post

Arguments against it being anything more than a glow:

1. They don't need more backstory about Dain/Moria, etc.

2. As for glowing things and fires, that would completely wreck the surprise of the later films, as noted already

3. They can't even get swords to glow consistently, who's to say it's not just an artist putting in some detail?

4. It doesn't follow any logical sense with what they just showed us. Seriously, if it showed itself THEN it would be common knowledge in days. The elves at Lorien would know, certainly, it's on their doorstep!!!!


Dwarf: "Yeah I was at the Battle of the East Gate. Thorin did a great job and he cut of Azog's hand, you should have seen it! We just about had them running, when this huge Balrog showed up and trashed us..."
2nd Dwarf: A Balrog???? We'd better tell everyone not to go anywhere near that place again. By Aule, that's news!!! We'd better tell everyone what's under Moria
Dwarf: Yeah I agree. Let me get on Twitter and do that...
Lorien Elf: A balrog? I'm heading for the Havens. Seeya!
Saruman: A balrog...hmmmmm, perhaps I can make use of this
Gandalf: A Balrog of Morgoth...run!


Elenorflower
Gondor


Jan 11 2013, 11:26pm

Post #15 of 47 (226 views)
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Did anyone notice that Thorin was wearing the [In reply to] Can't Post

Mithril shirt during the battle of Aziwhatsit?


Yva
Rivendell


Jan 11 2013, 11:33pm

Post #16 of 47 (222 views)
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Yes! [In reply to] Can't Post

I returned from my 4th viewing a few hours ago. I was desperately trying to take in as many details as I could, and this is one the new things (new for me) that I took notice of :) Was certainly happy to see it.


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 11 2013, 11:42pm

Post #17 of 47 (199 views)
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Are you thinking it's Bilbo's shirt? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't imagine it would fit Thorin. Bilbo is much smaller than Thorin.

At least in the book, the mithril shirt is found in the treasure after Smaug has been killed. If Thorin is seen with the shirt at Moria, that would be after Erebor was taken by the dragon, so it couldn't be the same shirt.

Unless the filmmakers are planning on changing the sequence of events.


Yva
Rivendell


Jan 12 2013, 12:43am

Post #18 of 47 (190 views)
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I admit it occured to me in a flash of fan over-excitement [In reply to] Can't Post

when I realized what I was seeing was a mithril shirt - and of course we have only seen one in the movies so far (am I right?), therefore in order to make us recognize it, they must look identical - but it seems unlikely as you're saying for several reasons. Although the size problem could be easily resolved I guess.

I think it would be just typical of PJ & co to try make the circumstances of Bilbo acquiring the shirt more meaningful than just someone digging it up in the treasure pile, but no, I'm not seriously suggesting it's Bilbo's shirt. The moment when Thorin could be seen wearing it is too brief to bear any special significance. Just attention to detail on the part of the filmmakers I guess.

I was just happy to spot a dwarf wearing a recognizable mithril shirt, plus it suits Thorin's character as the young dwarven prince. I wonder where is it now, as he doesn't have it during AUJ (I think?). Is there a way to rate a uniqueness of a mithril shirt, ie. are there tens of them in Middle Earth, or two of them, or hundreds of them, I just have absolutely no idea.


(This post was edited by Yva on Jan 12 2013, 12:49am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 12 2013, 2:39am

Post #19 of 47 (180 views)
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Here you are wrong. This "creature", or rather this fell being, a Maia Demon [In reply to] Can't Post

who played some role in the creation of The World, almost requires some commentary, because Moria has been displayed, the very gate the fellowship is seen fleeing in Fellowship after their encounter with The Demon. A Demon which, by the film's account, The Wise already know is in Moria. The Visual Companion to THIS movie recounts that it was The Balrog which drove The Dwarves from Moria in the first place (in all the Third Age history of The Dwarves, no Dark Power is more relevant than this slayer of the reincarnation of there great Ancestor King and exiler of their folk from their homeland. . . he is not more relevant than the Necromancer to the history of Middle Earth, but he is far more relevant to Durin's Folk). In any event, even a lay viewer might be inclined to wonder what happened to the Terror that comes to confront Gandalf, and how it is that he does not notice a massive war being waged on his doorstep. . . unless he was contrived, as a gimmick and a mere tool, something to provide a challenge to The Wizard. . . but strangely not even mentioned before in connection to Moria in the earlier films in which that place features. . . ANYWAY, didn't I say this thread would not focus upon the whys and why nots (or Mithril shirts, folks Tongue lol). There will be a Thread for it again, and has been one in the past. This one is ONLY about what was glimpsed or not glimpsed in the battle scene, and whether or not it might have been Durin's Bane (i.e. the being who drove the dwarves out of Moria, and the only real reason they could not return, even after the slaughter of the orc host).


In Reply To
I have no idea whether the flames are meant to insinuate the Balrog's presence or not, but if they are, I'm quite certain that it's all that we're going to see of that creature. Showing more would make nothing but a pointless cameo appearance and leave the audience expecting a confrontation with a monster that never plays into the main plot. Even in an extended film series that tries to cram in every reference it possibly can every scene needs to serve the plot in some manner. With the Balrog it would be nothing but a moment of: "oh, there's a Balrog, moving on". It wouldn't serve any purpose. If the scenes of Moria are extended to involve more details about why the dwarves didn't press on, I would very much prefer a minimalistic approach where Thrain (or Thorin) looks inside the gates, but the viewers don't see what he is looking at, and then comes back, visibly shaken and unwilling to explain what he saw. That kind of scene would work far better than the most impressively rendered Balrog cameo could ever hope for.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


xxxyyy
Rohan

Jan 12 2013, 2:39pm

Post #20 of 47 (145 views)
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By the way, why are we assuming Moria was not retaken after that battle? [In reply to] Can't Post

Again, I mixed the book and the movie.
The dwarves HAVE retaken Moria after the victory at the East Gate.
The movie doesn't tell us anything about the Balrog so I'll go with the easy assumption that there are dwarves now in Moria, after Azanulbizar and up to the The Hobbit and FOTR.
We may see at the end of TABA Balin saying he will rejoin his comrades who are in Moria.
I guess the writers just need to establish that there WAS a demon in Moria A LONG TIME AGO, forgotten in memory, who drove the dwarves out of Moria but now went back to sleep; a demon who would wake up only if an equivalent power would manifest near him and threaten him (as was the Power of the dwarves digging too deep (due to (one of) the Seven Rings?), or Gandalf's presence coupled with the Ring of Power (let's add Narya too...)
I know this is a little less powerful than Tolkien's vision, but it would solve a lot of inconsistencies.

http://energyfromthorium.com/


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 12 2013, 4:52pm

Post #21 of 47 (124 views)
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The true nature and history of the Balrog is wholly irrelevant to the discussion. [In reply to] Can't Post

As far as the film-viewing (or indeed even book-reading) audience is concerned, it's simply a big, scary monster. Yes, the Balrog plays an important part in the dwarves history, but he rules of narrative trump historical significance. You can't introduce a giant monster without doing something with it. Chekhov's Gun can't be left unused at the end of a storyline. It would be left as a mere disconnected reference without context or meaning in The Hobbit. The appearance of the Balrog was a surprise in the FotR, both in the book and the film, and there is no reason why it shouldn't remain so. The dwarves did not know what the Durin's Bane was, exactly, and did not find out until Gandalf's confrontation with the thing. There's no point in revealing it to the audiences beforehand.


ryouko
Lorien

Jan 12 2013, 5:16pm

Post #22 of 47 (119 views)
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come to think of it [In reply to] Can't Post

I do recall seeing the glow, but didn't think anything of it. Just thought it was fires that were set somewhere. I'll take a better look at it when I see it tomorrow.


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jan 12 2013, 5:52pm

Post #23 of 47 (114 views)
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its clearly the balrog.... [In reply to] Can't Post

the first time time i saw AUJ i thought there is no way that its just goblins inside lighting fires plus goblins really aren't fans of fires they prefer darkness. The one thing is. if the balrog is that close to the gate....it seems like it would be around where Gandalf confronted it in FOTR. The goblins fear the balrog so i wonder where they went if it was so close?? Anyways i'm hoping we get to see more Moria in either DOS or TABA!


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty, oh will you please take me home!!


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jan 12 2013, 5:55pm

Post #24 of 47 (117 views)
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the dwarves retook Moria? [In reply to] Can't Post

i thought they won the battle and Dain ventured into Moria and saw the balrog than told his people not to enter?


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty, oh will you please take me home!!


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jan 12 2013, 6:00pm

Post #25 of 47 (102 views)
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Not entirely true, dear sir [In reply to] Can't Post

Totally aside from the great significance of the Demon's history as the great Terror of Durin's Folk. . . "that which haunts our darkest nightmares" is how Gimli essentially put it, there is the in movie continuity. It is very sloppy to bring up Moria in these films with no mention or inkling that a Demon dwells there (pretty relevant information one would think), and then have the damn thing pop up in Fellowship as though he had always been there, complete with explicit commentary from one Wizard about its long residency there and on another Wizard's grim mood over the knowledge and subsequent fear to enter Moria in the first place. It seems out of the blue and entirely contrived. A boss level gimmick straight out of a video game. Those who view the movies sequentially, and are more than half attentive, will ask, "Well where the hell did this Lord among Fiends come from? Never heard about him in connection to this place when it was shown and repeatedly mentioned in the earlier films Unimpressed." Those viewing in backwards compatability will see the East Gate of Moria and think. . . "Hey. . . isn't this where that Demon lives. . ."

They don't need to give him a starring role. Nor should they. But some allusion and mention, if only for the sake of seamless continuity in their own films.

In Reply To
As far as the film-viewing (or indeed even book-reading) audience is concerned, it's simply a big, scary monster. Yes, the Balrog plays an important part in the dwarves history, but he rules of narrative trump historical significance. You can't introduce a giant monster without doing something with it. Chekhov's Gun can't be left unused at the end of a storyline. It would be left as a mere disconnected reference without context or meaning in The Hobbit. The appearance of the Balrog was a surprise in the FotR, both in the book and the film, and there is no reason why it shouldn't remain so. The dwarves did not know what the Durin's Bane was, exactly, and did not find out until Gandalf's confrontation with the thing. There's no point in revealing it to the audiences beforehand.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

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