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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
"Is this a subtle way of explaining the Ringwraith theme in the film?"
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Magpie
Immortal


Jan 10 2013, 10:52pm

Post #1 of 47 (1292 views)
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"Is this a subtle way of explaining the Ringwraith theme in the film?" Can't Post

Thought some of you might be interested in this Twitter exchange with Doug Adams:

Doug Adams @DougAdamsLOTR
So now that sheet music selections from #HowardShore's score to #TheHobbit have been published, I wonder …

… how many people will notice the pulsing chord behind the Wargs' theme is often built on E-F#-G-B. Does that chord sound familiar? Hm…


Danijel Legin @dlegin
@DougAdamsLOTR Yes it does! The same chord that builds Ringwraiths music in LOTR, but transposed to E minor


Doug Adams @DougAdamsLOTR
We have a winner! “@dlegin: @DougAdamsLOTR Yes it does! The same chord that builds Ringwraiths music in LOTR, but transposed to E minor”


Luke Hobbs @LukeHobbs
@DougAdamsLOTR Is this a subtle way of explaining what appears to be an incongruous use of the Ringwraith theme in the film?


Doug Adams @DougAdamsLOTR
Yup! ;) “@LukeHobbs: @DougAdamsLOTR Is this a subtle way of explaining the Ringwraith theme in the film?”




https://twitter.com/DougAdamsLOTR/status/289193479081435136
https://twitter.com/DougAdamsLOTR/status/289193496642981889
https://twitter.com/DougAdamsLOTR/status/289387017199034368
https://twitter.com/DougAdamsLOTR/status/289478742231891968


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
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Lindele
Gondor


Jan 10 2013, 11:00pm

Post #2 of 47 (682 views)
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Wonderful [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh ye of little faith.

I Love Doug Adams.


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Jan 10 2013, 11:11pm

Post #3 of 47 (692 views)
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How does that explain it? [In reply to] Can't Post

While he's at it, can he also explain why so many of the other themes got used? Hobbit was one big deja-vu, unfortunately.


Yva
Rivendell


Jan 11 2013, 12:29am

Post #4 of 47 (541 views)
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Still unclear :/ [In reply to] Can't Post

Is this meant to be an explanation of the issue, or another hint?
I admit this still doesn't clear it up for me but the fault may very well be on my side.
Thank you for the info


Silranhir
Bree

Jan 11 2013, 12:29am

Post #5 of 47 (605 views)
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Only when it needed to be [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
While he's at it, can he also explain why so many of the other themes got used? Hobbit was one big deja-vu, unfortunately.

Otherwise it was a fantastic score. And there is a reason why themes were reused.


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Jan 11 2013, 12:47am

Post #6 of 47 (554 views)
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They weren't needed. [In reply to] Can't Post

Why was the Nazgul / Mordor theme needed in the Thorin / Azog confrontation? Why was the... i dunno what it's called, when Thorin hugged Bilbo - again, music lifted straight out of LOTR. Even for familiar places or characters they should have actually written new music that takes cues from the themes of LOTR but is not like an almost 1 to 1 copy. I'm sure they had their reasons but it strikes me as lazy.


(This post was edited by Estel78 on Jan 11 2013, 12:48am)


Kassandros
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 12:53am

Post #7 of 47 (544 views)
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Don't think it's laziness. [In reply to] Can't Post

They wrote and recorded a lot of music that didn't end up in the film. A lot of that music was further away from LotR. So I don't think it's laziness. Perhaps after they finished, they thought it didn't sound enough like Middle Earth and so rewrote and rerecorded some parts to include more references to the LotR score.

If it was laziness, you wouldn't have unused music on the CDs.

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...


imin
Valinor


Jan 11 2013, 12:57am

Post #8 of 47 (511 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

Though from listening to the CD of the extended soundtrack i prefer it to what was in the film.

I guess they just assessed it and felt it wasnt right and so changed it from what was on the CD.

Perhaps it will be changed again a little for the extended editions when they come out on dvd/blu-ray


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Jan 11 2013, 1:00am

Post #9 of 47 (506 views)
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The Wargs are actually Ring-wraiths? ;P [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder if by this logic, the "Gondor Reborn" cue is now the "Kingdom Reborn" motif as it immediately precedes the reveal of Erebor in the final scene...but wait a minute, wasn't Thorin embracing Bilbo what was happening when he heard this particular piece reused? Eh, yep.

And part of "Breaking of the Fellowship" is heard when Gandy is waxing poetic about Bilbo in Rivendell, because...? Hm, still feels like stretch to me. Tongue

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Jan 11 2013, 1:02am

Post #10 of 47 (494 views)
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The initial "Out of the Frying Pan" track sounds like ME...to me. heh. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


stoutfiles
Rohan


Jan 11 2013, 1:02am

Post #11 of 47 (500 views)
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Yep [In reply to] Can't Post

And then people get angry that The Hobbit wasn't up for any music awards. They were nominated for this music years ago!


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Jan 11 2013, 1:06am

Post #12 of 47 (475 views)
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Not "Song of the Lonely Mountain"! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Ave Moria
Rivendell


Jan 11 2013, 1:08am

Post #13 of 47 (534 views)
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Anyone who [In reply to] Can't Post

Thinks Howard Shore is lazy is a fool of a Took.

And knows nothing about the process of scoring film. This guy has more talent in his ear hair than most people on this planet. He doesn't need to recycle ideas. If anything was used again, it was to tie things together or stress certain themes.

To say he is lazy, is like saying Howard goes in thoughtless and unprepared. As someone who is very knowledgable about his career and methods from studying his work and interviews for years, not to mention a composer with several film credits to my name, I can say this with confidence: Howard is the last guy to ever mindlessly repeat himself because he couldn't come up with new material.

-In the Darkness, a torch we hold-


Curunír
The Shire


Jan 11 2013, 1:17am

Post #14 of 47 (474 views)
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Agree 100% [In reply to] Can't Post

Even the film version has a ridiculous amount of new themes and material amongst relatively few (and expected) references to LOTR, much more than any standard film score.

I really do not understand how people feel this is all rehashed. In a 2 hour 45 min movie, there is probably less than 20 mins of music that is very similar to cues from LOTR. I really feel like people are not listening carefully enough - perhaps as many of the new themes (Erebor, Thorin, Bilbo, Gandalf, Azog, Wargs, Radagast, Company, + many many more) are quite subdued compared to themes used into LOTR that they aren't as apparent, or perhaps they fit so well into ME that we have felt they have always been there.

Saying that the Company theme is the only constantly used theme is just incorrect. Erebor plays a ridiculous amount of times, so does Thorin and Gandalf.


Ave Moria
Rivendell


Jan 11 2013, 1:21am

Post #15 of 47 (473 views)
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Great post! [In reply to] Can't Post

You forgot the preview of Smaug's Theme during the prologue!

There are a ton of new themes, and they are striking! My personal fav is Smaug's and the new Orc Theme for Azog that references the descending melody played against the Ringwraith theme. Hint: It plays just as Azog appears and yells something in Black Speech at Thror. It also plays at Weathertop.

It's SUPER heavy brass...and wicked cool.

-In the Darkness, a torch we hold-


Loresilme
Valinor


Jan 11 2013, 1:39am

Post #16 of 47 (453 views)
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Perhaps people latch on to what they recognize [In reply to] Can't Post

So when familiar material was heard it remained more prominent in their memories, leaving the impression that there was more familiar material than there really was.

Personally I am huge fan of HS and I was thrilled from the moment the first credits rolled and I heard the first notes :-).


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Jan 11 2013, 2:07am

Post #17 of 47 (467 views)
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How about Howard Shore is not so lazy, but Peter Jackson is another matter... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hearing the Nazgul theme and the Gondor Reborn cue were jarring and obvious attempts to garner goodwill toward TH by fostering nostalgia for LotR. If PJ wanted to tie Azog into the minions of the Necromancer, who could have done so with, say, the Necromancer/evil motif we hear throughout the film anyway? Or another version of the Azog motif blended with that of Mordor? It just reeked of cut-and-paste. It's like if they used the Gondor theme for Thorin because both he and Aragorn were Kings, without an other context...oh, wait a minute.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Rostron2
Gondor


Jan 11 2013, 2:09am

Post #18 of 47 (421 views)
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Exactly [In reply to] Can't Post

For instance, OH MY GOD, I heard the 'About Hobbits Theme' I bet there are hobbits in the film!!!!


Curunír
The Shire


Jan 11 2013, 2:25am

Post #19 of 47 (419 views)
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I disagree [In reply to] Can't Post

This general public which you believe PJ is trying to draw in wouldn't recognise the "Gondor Reborn" theme - no way. They haven't seen the movies a million times like we have, the theme appears only twice in the TE of ROTK and is a few short bars. The general movie going public would hardly recognise any of the themes from LOTR.

That said, I doubt this was the reason for insertion. Time restraints? Possibly. But I guess we'll have to find out.

Either way, I think it fits the mood rather well and don't have a particular problem with it - especially as it is literally 10 seconds long.


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Jan 11 2013, 2:33am

Post #20 of 47 (421 views)
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Sorry, meant the theme that plays over the pan over Minas Tirith [In reply to] Can't Post

at the opening of Aragorn's coronation, and as Barad-dur begins to crumble...confused the title with the motif heard during the Frodo/Sam "the King has a crown again" exchange at the crossroads.

In any event, I would have loved to have heard Shore's track "Erebor" from the official soundtrack release blare triumphantly here, especially given the very next thing we see is the Company gazing at Erebor in the distance.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Jan 11 2013, 2:35am)


Curunír
The Shire


Jan 11 2013, 3:10am

Post #21 of 47 (395 views)
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I believe... [In reply to] Can't Post

...we are talking about the same theme. It appears those two times in ROTK (and then another time at the crossroads in the EE which is not most general audiences would have seen) as I remember it...I just don't think someone who has seen the movies once or twice would recognise it at all. For example, I've see the Harry Potter films, but I couldn't even hum a single theme from them...

Admittedly it struck me as an odd use too in AUJ. But I'm sure it's been used for a reason, and on subsequent viewings it hasn't bothered me. I imagine it is a redefinition.

As for the "Erebor" track, I love it, but I thought it was too pompous to be used at any point in THIS movie. It's placement on the Disc and it's exlusion from the standard release kind of hint it was never meant to be. Anyway, it's an elaboration of the Erebor motif heard throughout AUJ, so it makes sense we only hear it in it's infantile stage....for now.


Silranhir
Bree

Jan 11 2013, 7:50am

Post #22 of 47 (306 views)
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It wasn't cut and paste [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Hearing the Nazgul theme and the Gondor Reborn cue were jarring and obvious attempts to garner goodwill toward TH by fostering nostalgia for LotR. If PJ wanted to tie Azog into the minions of the Necromancer, who could have done so with, say, the Necromancer/evil motif we hear throughout the film anyway? Or another version of the Azog motif blended with that of Mordor? It just reeked of cut-and-paste. It's like if they used the Gondor theme for Thorin because both he and Aragorn were Kings, without an other context...oh, wait a minute.

They were re recorded with changes to tie certain plot points nit yet seen, into later films.


imin
Valinor


Jan 11 2013, 8:33am

Post #23 of 47 (301 views)
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They may have been re-recorded [In reply to] Can't Post

but they sound very similar - especially when heard the very first time, for me this took me out of the moment and made me question their choice of music when i should have been thinking 'go on Thorin, kill him!'

It will be interesting to hear the commentary on these scenes when the dvds are released.


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Jan 11 2013, 1:02pm

Post #24 of 47 (242 views)
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Ditto [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
but they sound very similar - especially when heard the very first time, for me this took me out of the moment and made me question their choice of music when i should have been thinking 'go on Thorin, kill him!'


Happened several times for me.


Oscarilbo
Lorien


Jan 11 2013, 2:56pm

Post #25 of 47 (199 views)
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well... [In reply to] Can't Post

with "subtle way" I think it means not exactly about wargs but about who is riding them, in this case, Azog. It's all about Azog. But we are going to have to wait a little more to get more clues, and by december, to finally find a payoff.

About the "Gondor reborn" theme, I've thought on something a few weeks ago, and this is an opportunity to share it... When we see those final moments of The Return of the King there's not only Aragorn's coronation, but an official recognition on four little fellows and how they defined Middle Earth's destiny. Well, I think what we see and hear in that final scene of The Hobbit AUJ is that same idea. Here's finally the first recognition of a hobbit's value, an acknowledgment of something really big that has just been put on motion by this little burglar; the decisive roll of the hobbits in passing to the fourth age in Middle Earth. For me there's not another better connection.

"The World is Changed, I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air"

(This post was edited by Oscarilbo on Jan 11 2013, 3:04pm)

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