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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
An Ancient Enemy and The Khazad Dum connection + Smaug Theme
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Ave Moria
Rivendell


Jan 5 2013, 9:19pm

Post #1 of 34 (909 views)
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An Ancient Enemy and The Khazad Dum connection + Smaug Theme Can't Post

I have been listening to the score a bit, and one of my favorite moments to relive is the Thorin Azog battle at Moria, and I quickly noticed that while Azog is hammering away at Thorin's oaken shield, the ascending musical theme is almost note for note from sections of Khazad Dum's main motif. This is not laziness, but a conscious decision by Shore to connect the heavy melancholy and epicness of the Dwarves and their fall between these two pieces.

Very cool stuff.


I am also wondering if the Thorin Azog theme (which is NOT a Knife in the Dark) will be available.

Everyone keeps saying this is a Knife in the Dark, but it is really a Mordor motif heard of course in anything Nazgul related. The version in the Hobbit has staccato strings and heavy timpani that no prior version has. This theme looks to be a sort of remix, or building up of the earlier theme to echo the Mordor connection, which we will probably see in some fashion with Azog and the Necromancer.

EDIT: For more insight, read the liner notes for The Hobbit extended edition score, there is a quite a bit of insight into how and why themes were created.

For example, Smaug's Theme is teased in AUJ, and can be heard @ 4:17 in My Dear Frodo. If you listen, you will notice, as explained in the liner notes, this is a theme constructed with the note structure of Sauron's Theme, but sort of inverted.

I am wondering if there is a connection here, especially since Sauron's eye is almost identical to Smaug's.

-In the Darkness, a torch we hold-

(This post was edited by Ave Moria on Jan 5 2013, 9:26pm)


FlyingSerkis
Rivendell


Jan 5 2013, 9:27pm

Post #2 of 34 (451 views)
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I agree about the Khazad-Dum connection [In reply to] Can't Post

Shore done good with this one Cool

But...


In Reply To
I am also wondering if the Thorin Azog theme (which is NOT a Knife in the Dark) will be available.

Everyone keeps saying this is a Knife in the Dark, but it is really a Mordor motif heard of course in anything Nazgul related. The version in the Hobbit has staccato strings and heavy timpani that no prior version has. This theme looks to be a sort of remix, or building up of the earlier theme to echo the Mordor connection, which we will probably see in some fashion with Azog and the Necromancer.


It is the musical theme that has always been known as the "Ringwraiths" theme, famously appearing in "A Knife in the Dark" as well as all the other Nazgul scenes in FOTR (plus the prologue battle which admittedly wasn't directly about the Nazgul), but it is re-arranged and, importantly, with a different choral text[ (i.e. not "Revelation of the Ringwraiths"). What Shore means by this is yet to be seen, but it could be very interesting. I'm not sure it was the right decision though, as I and many others found it quite distracting in the cinema on first viewing (I'll be prepared for it second time round though! Smile)

Then ManwŽ and Yavanna parted for that time, and Yavanna returned to AulŽ; and he was in his smithy, pouring molten metal into a mould. 'Eru is bountiful,' she said. 'Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril.'

'Nonetheless they will have need of wood,' said AulŽ, and he went on with his smith-work.


Ave Moria
Rivendell


Jan 5 2013, 9:30pm

Post #3 of 34 (416 views)
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Cool! [In reply to] Can't Post

 What Shore means by this is yet to be seen, but it could be very interesting. I'm not sure it was the right decision though, as I and many others found it quite distracting in the cinema on first viewing (I'll be prepared for it second time round though! Smile)


I love this thought! Sort of a musical prelude to film events. I wonder how this will play out?

I too was a bit shocked when I heard the Nazgul theme, but I also LOVED it's use. I think it clearly worked great for the scene if you can take prior expectations out of the equation.

-In the Darkness, a torch we hold-


FlyingSerkis
Rivendell


Jan 5 2013, 9:42pm

Post #4 of 34 (402 views)
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Interestingly [In reply to] Can't Post

The music at the end of the CD track "Out of the Frying Pan", which presumably was originally intended for this scene, is fairly similar to the music used (maybe a tiny bit less forceful/dramatic), in terms of overall sound. Instead of the "Ringwraiths" theme, however, the actual notes of the music sound rather more like dwarven music such as was heard in Moria in FOTR. I think it's pretty cool, but it ultimately wasn't used in the film.

In my opinion, the music heard on the CD would have achieved pretty much the same effect as the music used on film ignoring any baggage about thematic things. Therefore, I think the change had to be for a thematic reason, rather than PJ saying "we need something more dramatic here!" So, I'm trying to say that, surely, surely, Shore and Jackson have something specific in mind with this change of theme.

Then ManwŽ and Yavanna parted for that time, and Yavanna returned to AulŽ; and he was in his smithy, pouring molten metal into a mould. 'Eru is bountiful,' she said. 'Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril.'

'Nonetheless they will have need of wood,' said AulŽ, and he went on with his smith-work.

(This post was edited by FlyingSerkis on Jan 5 2013, 9:43pm)


Magpie
Immortal


Jan 5 2013, 9:49pm

Post #5 of 34 (485 views)
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I made a comment to a friend, privately, as we discussed the soundtrack and some of the conundrums it's presented [In reply to] Can't Post

I discussed (at length, as befits a magpie) about some of the possible explanations for these seemingly out of place themes and then ended with:

This music all has to make sense but, ultimately, it is a active, breathing, creative art form. It is not math with Venn diagrams and spread sheets. I think the fans have pushed for the theme concept to be much more concrete than Shore might have liked. If we weren't all studying it so intently, would we notice the use of the Ringwraiths, Martial Lothlorien, or Gondor Reborn themes as being 'out of place?'



Here's what I said, in its entirety:

...there are three possibilities:
The music was chosen and used deliberately by Shore and it means something.

The music was chosen and used deliberately by Shore and it means nothing (Doug did say something about, I think, the use of the Gondor Reborn theme that amounted to: don't be too literal in thinking about what themes mean)

The music was stuck in by Jackson because there was last minute editing being done and he needed something and nothing else could be prepared in time. Remember the decision to make this three movies came quite late in the game. And similar things were done during TTT which was a rush job in many ways.


So, if it's one of the last two possibilities, it's kind of useless looking for connections.

There were some themes in LOTR that changed 'alliances' or broadened in meaning.

For example:
Isengard Theme - this was used to refer very directly to Saruman. In ROTK, they mixed it with other themes even after Isengard fell.

Five Beat Pattern - In the FOTR and TTT, it was assigned to the category of Isengard and the Orcs and can be heard alone to represent Isengard, underlying the Isengard theme, or alone to represent forces of Mordor (other than Isengard). In the ROTK with the dimming of Isengard's power, the Five Beat Pattern was realigned to Mordor.

The same is true with Cruelty of the Orcs.


Also, I think - although Shore surely intended to use themes from early on in the LOTR scoring process - how they were used and how they were categorized changed as the work developed.
From my website:
History of the Ring theme: HS had originally referred to this music, heard at the Argonoth, as a theme for Gondor Theme . But in the appendices of TTT EE DVD, he refers to it as the 'History of the Ring' Theme and that name has persisted since.

Shore quote from FOTR commentary: Thereís a theme thatís used in the very beginning of the film that has to do with the history of the Ring. Cause in the prologue is explaining how the ring was forged and all historical references to the Ring. And thereís a theme thatís used there thatís actually a Gondorian theme that you hear as the Fellowship goes through the Argonath and then into Amon Hen. We see ruined statuary of Gondor and you hear that theme.

Shore also refers to "Frodo's Theme" in the FOTR commentary even though, in the end, no theme was attributed solely to Frodo. So what ever he thought of as 'Frodo's Theme' became something larger.

So, it could be that, in Shore's mind, what a certain theme represents is just getting broader over time and usage.

This music all has to make sense but, ultimately, it is a active, breathing, creative art form. It is not math with Venn diagrams and spread sheets. I think the fans have pushed for the theme concept to be much more concrete than Shore might have liked. If we weren't all studying it so intently, would we notice the use of the Ringwraiths, Martial Lothlorien, or Gondor Reborn themes as being 'out of place?'

I guess, ultimately, it remains to be seen as we either get an explanation that illuminates it all or we get a 'don't be too literal' explanation.

np: A Good Omen. :-)


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Ave Moria
Rivendell


Jan 5 2013, 9:50pm

Post #6 of 34 (387 views)
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I see but your saying but- [In reply to] Can't Post

I just think the theme on the CD is not as strong as the Nazgul theme. It's a good theme on its own, but when you put it to the scene it just lacked the same impact. Just my opinion.

I think PJ's decision is two-fold, thematic and not enough oomph. PJ thinks thematically, as does Boyens and Walsh (as a team), so someone probably said this isn't working with the edit, and then some sort of emotional down payment was discovered with relation to later events with Azog and Thorin, and boom, the Nazgul theme fit the requirements.

PJ's probably memo to Shore. Record the Nazgul theme in studio, but add more movement and drive. Boom, There you go.

All speculation, but just my opinion.

-In the Darkness, a torch we hold-


Ave Moria
Rivendell


Jan 5 2013, 10:02pm

Post #7 of 34 (366 views)
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Fantastic post [In reply to] Can't Post

I totally agree.

Anyone familiar with the scoring process knows that things are in a constant state of flux. Edits change after scores are complete, creating situations where the composer either has to chop up his work to fit, use temp tracks or something else entirely.

By the final cut of the film, and the score, it looks like some things were always there, and some came late in the game. For example, The Defiler theme is in the Weathertop scene, so Azog wasn't added too late, BUT the Nazgul theme during Thorin's fight was changed, suggesting this scene went through some 11th hour editing, or maybe it didn't and the score just didn't work in PJ's eyes.

Anyway, you spoke in general to the point I have been trying to make. Don't get so hung up on this theme or that, they all have different thematic permutations they can take, according to the moment or the character.

A good composer knows he has to come up with about 5 themes per score, and then each one of those has to withstand the mutation test; i.e.: it has to be re-written fast, sad, epic, funny etc, and has to be equally as strong across the board.

Shore is no dummy and is insanely knowledgable and talented. This guy is one of the last great composers and a rare one who actually writes and orchestrates his scores. If he includes a theme here or there that surprises or stuns fans, it's not out of laziness or anything like that. Be assured he has something up his sleeve and nothing is done by accident (usually).

-In the Darkness, a torch we hold-


FlyingSerkis
Rivendell


Jan 5 2013, 10:16pm

Post #8 of 34 (345 views)
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Great post, as ever [In reply to] Can't Post

You're of course right that we need to be careful about thinking too literally and calculatingly about the themes.

Re: one of your scenarios...


In Reply To
...
The music was stuck in by Jackson because there was last minute editing being done and he needed something and nothing else could be prepared in time. Remember the decision to make this three movies came quite late in the game. And similar things were done during TTT which was a rush job in many ways.


I would add that, as far as I understand, the "interesting" thematic choices in AUJ were all recorded specifically for this film (and, I would guess, their specific scenes), as opposed to some of the changes in TTT which were lifted from the FOTR score because there was not time to record something new.


In Reply To
There were some themes in LOTR that changed 'alliances' or broadened in meaning.


Absolutely right, and I wonder if we are getting that with the ringwraith theme. It's not at all clear at this stage, but hopefully it will be!

I have mentioned elsewhere that this is a possible "excuse" for the martial Lothlorien theme (I really don't think the appearance of that theme is an "issue" at all, but I know some do).


In Reply To
From my website:
History of the Ring theme: HS had originally referred to this music, heard at the Argonoth, as a theme for Gondor Theme . But in the appendices of TTT EE DVD, he refers to it as the 'History of the Ring' Theme and that name has persisted since.

Shore quote from FOTR commentary: Thereís a theme thatís used in the very beginning of the film that has to do with the history of the Ring. Cause in the prologue is explaining how the ring was forged and all historical references to the Ring. And thereís a theme thatís used there thatís actually a Gondorian theme that you hear as the Fellowship goes through the Argonath and then into Amon Hen. We see ruined statuary of Gondor and you hear that theme.


That is really interesting, thanks for that Smile

I suppose that comment was recorded after the film score had been finalised? Because if not, he might have been referring to the version of the Argonath sequence recorded which had the theme "The Realm of Gondor" on it, instead of "The History of the Ring". If it was, though, I'm rather confused as to what he's on about Crazy Angelic


In Reply To
This music all has to make sense but, ultimately, it is a active, breathing, creative art form. It is not math with Venn diagrams and spread sheets. I think the fans have pushed for the theme concept to be much more concrete than Shore might have liked. If we weren't all studying it so intently, would we notice the use of the Ringwraiths, Martial Lothlorien, or Gondor Reborn themes as being 'out of place?'


Too true. Thanks for reminding me. I guess, though, that I'm still a little... disappointed about the "Gondor Reborn" appearance, because I just think that theme was so well-crafted out of the glorious "Minas Tirith" theme and its first appearance in "A Coronal of Silver and Gold" is just so wonderful, that I feel that accepting its presence in The Hobbit would somehow diminish its meaning in ROTK. Maybe I'm just being stubborn and stupid - after all, the score to ROTK hasn't changed at all because of this!


In Reply To
I guess, ultimately, it remains to be seen as we either get an explanation that illuminates it all or we get a 'don't be too literal' explanation.


Yup Smile Consider me hoping for more of the former! Wink

Then ManwŽ and Yavanna parted for that time, and Yavanna returned to AulŽ; and he was in his smithy, pouring molten metal into a mould. 'Eru is bountiful,' she said. 'Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril.'

'Nonetheless they will have need of wood,' said AulŽ, and he went on with his smith-work.


Elessar
Valinor


Jan 5 2013, 10:38pm

Post #9 of 34 (321 views)
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Very well written [In reply to] Can't Post

I've never really set down an looked at the music as closely as some. It's one of those things for me it just works. The music in The Lord of the Rings is just so well placed its mind boggling. For me in The Hobbit it's got so many new bits that I'm growing to love quickly, and then you toss in some familiar bits making another great listen. I would say the last time I watched The Hobbit I picked out the new stuff much easier.



Skaan
Lorien


Jan 5 2013, 10:54pm

Post #10 of 34 (365 views)
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About the Nazgul theme [In reply to] Can't Post

I always thought they used that theme because it was Sauron who resurected Azog, and they used that theme to give a little hint to that.


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Jan 6 2013, 12:08am

Post #11 of 34 (303 views)
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Fascinating thread -- thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I was just sitting enjoying a rare quiet moment at home and working on digesting the soundtrack, which Mr. Ro bought for me a few days ago.

Like many others, I was initially surprised by the appearance of the Ringwraith them in the final Azog/Thorin showdown. There's so much going on there in the movie that I've had a hard time focusing on just the music, but you're right that it's not exactly A Knife in the Dark -- Shore has upped the tension and drama with, as you describe, the stacatto strings and heavy timpani underlying the Nazgul theme. Something old, something new. Why? Why the Nazgul theme there? I think Magpie's spot-on with her three possibilities, and I'll vote for the first one (mostly because I would hope neither PJ nor Shore would re-use such a recognizable theme at random): that Shore chose it deliberately for its meaning.

However, I felt in the movie that the Nazgul theme was used specifically for Thorin's charge down the pine tree -- i.e., we heard it when the focus was on Thorin, not on Azog. Thus I really wondered why the Nazgul were referenced in Thorin's charge -- could this be foreshadowing and if so, of what? Or maybe during that scene I'm just oblivious to Azog's screentime and that's why it seems the music is all about Thorin!

And I too really wish that part of the score was in the soundtrack. "Out of the Frying Pan" is a bit disappointing without it!

Also, could you give the timing on the cd for the part where Azog's hammering away at Thorin in the Battle of Azanulbizar? I want to make sure I'm listening to the right bit.

Great discussion and thanks for getting it going!


Ave Moria
Rivendell


Jan 6 2013, 1:28am

Post #12 of 34 (263 views)
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Thanks for the nice words [In reply to] Can't Post

I too agree that I am waiting to hear the Nazgul theme now when listening to the score. Hopefully, a final score release will remedy this, a sort of directors cut if you will.

At 1:56 in "An Ancient Enemy" Balin says "It was then that I saw him. A young Dwarf Prince facing down the Pale Orc."

Shivers @ 2:03 and Azog lays into Thorin

Thorin severs Azog's arm at 2:38

Again, lay in the drums from The Bridge of Khazad Dum and the chanting underneath and you have something that matches the original in Fellowship in many ways (if you follow)

-In the Darkness, a torch we hold-


Magpie
Immortal


Jan 6 2013, 2:42am

Post #13 of 34 (241 views)
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you need to start a website [In reply to] Can't Post

haha...

It's the sort of info that people want and once you've worked it out, why not put it in an easy place for people to find it?

It was that simple question that got me started on a LOTR score website.

:-)


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Jan 6 2013, 6:48am

Post #14 of 34 (200 views)
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Ah, and thank *you*! [In reply to] Can't Post

Much more fun listening to that track with the notes on timing.

But I'm curious: is your musical memory really that good to remember what happens at exactly which musical cue (mine's not!), or have you taken notes, or...?


MEIGWIT
Bree


Jan 6 2013, 8:50am

Post #15 of 34 (222 views)
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Think I've found the answer possibly [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, not really an answer, but just an idea of where this charge down the tree music comes from. It is not based on A Knife in the Dark necessarily, but much more based off of the music from the prologue in FOTR. If you go back and listen here:

@2:15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNx8tz4qVeI

you can hear the theme all the theme play out including the dramatic drums that are similar to those when Thorin is clinched in the jaws of the Warg and then thrown. However, it has definitely been re-recorded for The Hobbit and scored originally to match this film. It is clearly not a Ringwraith only theme, but a Mordor theme or even something else that I'm not sure I should say. I'll say it, but I must elaborate:

If you think about the Ringwraiths and Sauron and the enemy in general, what are they? They are prideful, twisted, vengeful, full of malice, and anger right? Well, Thorin is not a bright, righteous, and noble character per-say. He is very deep and complicated. Now, what is Thorin doing in this scene? He is filled with pride, anger, vengeance, and dare I say malice himself. Instead of doing the noble heroic deed of turning to save his fellow dwarves from falling to their deaths, he rises and charges alone, foolishly and pridefully. Pride comes before the fall and fall Thorin does. I feel the music, while it was jarring for me at first too, is unbelievably genius on the part of Jackson and Shore. Had the finished film stuck with the original scoring, if it was even the original scoring (it seems to be the case), thorin would have looked as if he was making the heroic and noble decision. The music would have told the wrong story. With this finished product and, for lack of better term, "Nazgul theme" we cannot help but see Thorin's weaknesses being revealed to their full extent, by his foolish and prideful decision.

So to sum it all up, the theme may not be Ringwraith or even Mordor, but now it seems that the theme is really about ill intent, malice, anger, vengeance, pride, and so on. Thorin's companions are dangling over the cliff, about to fall to their death and yet he chooses to go on a suicide charge alone. It is foolish, so therefore he gets this dark and dramatic theme for his dark and prideful charge.

This is a fantastic discussion and I loved reading all the previous posts! I hope my post helps and if it doesn't I'm sorry. This is all just my opinion of course, but I for one loved the theme that was used. I don't feel it can really be labeled the "Nazgul theme" fairly since it was used heavily in the prologue and no Nazguls were present. Now it is also used for Thorin. So, take my thoughts as you will. Tongue

It is the little things in life that keep the darkness at bay.


Ave Moria
Rivendell


Jan 6 2013, 8:55am

Post #16 of 34 (204 views)
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OMG [In reply to] Can't Post

And I don't usually say "OMG"

You just BLEW my mind, seriously.

First of all, I didn't even realize this is so close to the Last Alliance prologue. When Sauron appears with his arm carrying the Mace in closeup, that is the same music as when Thorin is thrown and Azog rears to in pride.

Second, I think you NAILED the interpretation of this better than anyone else.

Truly an exciting read.

-In the Darkness, a torch we hold-


Ave Moria
Rivendell


Jan 6 2013, 8:58am

Post #17 of 34 (203 views)
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BTW [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Well, not really an answer, but just an idea of where this charge down the tree music comes from. It is not based on A Knife in the Dark necessarily, but much more based off of the music from the prologue in FOTR. If you go back and listen here:

@2:15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNx8tz4qVeI

you can hear the theme all the theme play out including the dramatic drums that are similar to those when Thorin is clinched in the jaws of the Warg and then thrown. However, it has definitely been re-recorded for The Hobbit and scored originally to match this film. It is clearly not a Ringwraith only theme, but a Mordor theme or even something else that I'm not sure I should say. I'll say it, but I must elaborate:

If you think about the Ringwraiths and Sauron and the enemy in general, what are they? They are prideful, twisted, vengeful, full of malice, and anger right? Well, Thorin is not a bright, righteous, and noble character per-say. He is very deep and complicated. Now, what is Thorin doing in this scene? He is filled with pride, anger, vengeance, and dare I say malice himself. Instead of doing the noble heroic deed of turning to save his fellow dwarves from falling to their deaths, he rises and charges alone, foolishly and pridefully. Pride comes before the fall and fall Thorin does. I feel the music, while it was jarring for me at first too, is unbelievably genius on the part of Jackson and Shore. Had the finished film stuck with the original scoring, if it was even the original scoring (it seems to be the case), thorin would have looked as if he was making the heroic and noble decision. The music would have told the wrong story. With this finished product and, for lack of better term, "Nazgul theme" we cannot help but see Thorin's weaknesses being revealed to their full extent, by his foolish and prideful decision.

So to sum it all up, the theme may not be Ringwraith or even Mordor, but now it seems that the theme is really about ill intent, malice, anger, vengeance, pride, and so on. Thorin's companions are dangling over the cliff, about to fall to their death and yet he chooses to go on a suicide charge alone. It is foolish, so therefore he gets this dark and dramatic theme for his dark and prideful charge.

This is a fantastic discussion and I loved reading all the previous posts! I hope my post helps and if it doesn't I'm sorry. This is all just my opinion of course, but I for one loved the theme that was used. I don't feel it can really be labeled the "Nazgul theme" fairly since it was used heavily in the prologue and no Nazguls were present. Now it is also used for Thorin. So, take my thoughts as you will. Tongue


I finally found someone who doesn't think this theme was written for the Nazgul besides me.

It seems like some unholy national anthem for Mordor itself. The fact it plays during the last Alliance battle PRECEDING the Nazgul PROVES it is not owned solely by them.

The Nazgul are defined by the theme, not the other way around. This theme is clearly a Mordor motif.

-In the Darkness, a torch we hold-


MEIGWIT
Bree


Jan 6 2013, 8:59am

Post #18 of 34 (220 views)
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Holy Moly!!!! (POSSIBLE SPOILER) [In reply to] Can't Post

You just spawned something else in my mind!!!! You mentioning mace just made me realize is AZOG WIELDING SAURON'S MACE???!?!?!?!?!

It is the little things in life that keep the darkness at bay.

(This post was edited by entmaiden on Jan 6 2013, 1:39pm)


MEIGWIT
Bree


Jan 6 2013, 9:09am

Post #19 of 34 (216 views)
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Ok [In reply to] Can't Post

I got a little excited, I'd have to see it again, but it very well might connect just about everything! Maybe. That would make me so happy if he was wielding Sauron's mace!

It is the little things in life that keep the darkness at bay.


DanielLB
Immortal


Jan 6 2013, 10:28am

Post #20 of 34 (184 views)
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It's a different shape [In reply to] Can't Post

See here - there's various gifs on tumblr. You can see that Azog's is a different shape to Sauron's mace.


Arannir
Valinor

Jan 6 2013, 12:26pm

Post #21 of 34 (158 views)
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This makes it much better for me... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I did not realize yet that there is a different choral text.

Is there a translation for what is sung in the LotR-choral? And already one for the new one?


FlyingSerkis
Rivendell


Jan 6 2013, 12:39pm

Post #22 of 34 (154 views)
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There is a translation for the LOTR [In reply to] Can't Post

I've got it from a page on Magpie's site:

NÍb‚bÓtham Mag‚nanÍ
We renounce our Maker.

NÍtabdam d‚ur-ad
We cleave to the darkness.

NÍp‚m nÍd ab‚rat-aglar
We take unto ourselves the power and glory.

ÓdŰ Nidir nÍn‚kham
Behold! We are the Nine,

B‚rÓín Kathar‚d
The Lords of Unending Life.


There is no translation for the Hobbit as yet as far as I know, yet it is audibly different from what is heard in "Revelation".

Then ManwŽ and Yavanna parted for that time, and Yavanna returned to AulŽ; and he was in his smithy, pouring molten metal into a mould. 'Eru is bountiful,' she said. 'Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril.'

'Nonetheless they will have need of wood,' said AulŽ, and he went on with his smith-work.


FlyingSerkis
Rivendell


Jan 6 2013, 12:47pm

Post #23 of 34 (153 views)
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Fantastic thought! [In reply to] Can't Post

That's a very cool explanation. I'd like to add one thing... is Thorin wearing one of the 7 dwarven rings?

Sauron had hoped that those 7 rings would do the same to the dwarves as the 9 did to the men - this obviously didn't happen. However, such a ring could indeed exagerrate some of what you call "pride, anger, vengeance, and dare I say malice" that Thorin is showing. Also, that sense of single-mindedness, which is also very relevant to the theme: when used in the FOTR prologue, it is about the single-mindedness of Sauron's destruction (and is very much to do with the evil of the ring). When used for the Nazgul, it is about the single-mindedness given to them by Sauron to take back the ring, which is caused by the 9 rings that the Nazgul are wearing. With Thorin, it is the single-mindedness of revenge - and, as I propose, is somewhat caused by the dwarven ring.

Of course, I can't recall if it has been noted whether Thorin is wearing a ring Blush Crazy If he is, I would say that makes the musical connection stronger.

Then ManwŽ and Yavanna parted for that time, and Yavanna returned to AulŽ; and he was in his smithy, pouring molten metal into a mould. 'Eru is bountiful,' she said. 'Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril.'

'Nonetheless they will have need of wood,' said AulŽ, and he went on with his smith-work.


Arannir
Valinor

Jan 6 2013, 1:21pm

Post #24 of 34 (136 views)
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Thanks so much! [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Jan 6 2013, 1:22pm

Post #25 of 34 (139 views)
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As far as canon goes... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thrain had the "last of the Seven" which was taken from him in Dol Guldur.

Whether PJ has decided to keep to this for his movieverse if anyone's guess...


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Į Victoria Monfort





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