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Trakanon
Registered User
Jan 4 2013, 4:55am
Post #1 of 9
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Cliffnotes on what will be in the next film?
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Can someone briefly say what is almost guaranteed to be in the next film? Before the final obvious scene(s) with Smaug, that is.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
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Jan 4 2013, 5:35am
Post #2 of 9
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Well, the only stuff that is really guaranteed is the stuff from the book. We don't know exactly how PJ is going to pursue the White Council/Necromancer plot, though there is bound to be quite a bit of that, along with more of Radagast and presumably Azog. But things from the book that are pretty sure to be in:
Beorn
Mirkwood/Spiders
Dwarves captured by Elves
Dwarves escape in barrels
Laketown
The "backdoor" and the thrush
Bilbo meets Smaug.
The last two are assumptions - I don't know if they will finish with Smaug's storyline in DOS or if his plot will carry over into the first part of TABA.
Silverlode
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moreorless
Mithlond
Jan 4 2013, 10:27am
Post #3 of 9
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Well, the only stuff that is really guaranteed is the stuff from the book. We don't know exactly how PJ is going to pursue the White Council/Necromancer plot, though there is bound to be quite a bit of that, along with more of Radagast and presumably Azog. But things from the book that are pretty sure to be in:
Beorn
Mirkwood/Spiders
Dwarves captured by Elves
Dwarves escape in barrels
Laketown
The "backdoor" and the thrush
Bilbo meets Smaug.
The last two are assumptions - I don't know if they will finish with Smaug's storyline in DOS or if his plot will carry over into the first part of TABA.
Some more of the White Council/Sauron story seems almost certain, at the very least I expect we'll get the Gandalf/Thrain confrontation either as a flashback or in realtime as Gandalf investigates Dol Guldor.
As far as Smaug goes my guess would be that we either things go as far as the end or his attack on the mountainside becomes the climax of the film, I can see that being greatly expanded with Thorin espeically showing more heroism.
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Jan 4 2013, 12:22pm
Post #4 of 9
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I am absolutely fascinated to see how they construct these three movies out of the source material so I love these types of questions and you did say "almost"
The Book
Chapters 7 through 12
The developed material
Gandalf/Radagast visit to the tombs in the high fells. The company haven't had a progress meeting since Rivendell and to ask Gandalf for an up date on where he has been seems logical or simply prologue it. One other potential prologue is the story of Thrain giving the key and map to Gandalf for safe keeping and then leaving to return for Erebor during which he is waylaid and captured by young Bolg.
Gandalf in the book leaves the company at the end of chapter 7 so I expect the sub plot to move all the way through its story arc in Part 11. In LOTR terms a kind of Helms Deep finish. So we will see Gandalf's visit to Dol Gulder where I now expect Thrain still to be alive and Gandalf is made aware that his ring has been taken by the necromencer. Bolg will obviously feature and Gandalf may barely escape and bring in the cavalry.
This part could be the most satisfying as the sub plot is revealed and we get great work on Beorn/Spiders/Elves/Laketown/Erebor and Dale post holocaust. I expect much greater depth of characterisation for both the Elven and Laketown segments than the book.
But as Manuel says "I know nothing"
I tried to save the shire , and it has been but not for me.
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Rostron2
Mithlond
Jan 4 2013, 4:56pm
Post #5 of 9
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Part of the struggle with the additional material is that it's limited to what the production company has the rights to. The Appendixes in ROTK have a lot to draw from in terms of dates, and there's some description. However, the Tolkien estate owns the rest, including all the additional notes, Unfinished Tales, etc. which have much more detail on all kinds of things, but they can't really use it. The whole Quest of Erebor piece in Unfinished Tales would have been invaluable for additional scenes for Thorin, Gandalf, etc. but it's not part of the deal.
This may account for the 'made up' nature of some of the inserted material.
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painjoiker
Hithlum
Jan 4 2013, 6:15pm
Post #6 of 9
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I will wait after the EE's release before saying what is guaranteed in the next film //
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Vocalist in the semi-progressive metal band Arctic Eclipse
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Jan 4 2013, 7:08pm
Post #7 of 9
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I think the Dol Guldur business might play out thus, leaving out some of my musings. . .
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With Bolg being present at Gandalf's first trip to Dol Guldur, in which he meets with Thrain. And other, more fell things being present on his second trip.
I don't see Bolg being the great threat to Gandalf in Dol Guldur. The toys, you will remember, packaged before the film was changed, already suggest that Gandalf puts the fear of a Wizard into Bolg.
Much of what follows I have suggested before.
It would make sense, considering what they already have in film 1, that Gandalf still could have found a captive Thrain in Dol Guldur prior to the Hobbit storyline, but captive (seemingly) only to orcs. Maybe just an orc captain (see Bolg) and a small gang thereof who have seemingly settled there in an old place of evil (post Watchful Peace). Gandalf routs them and disarms a mad and frightened Thrain, who dies after finally being able to put his remaining treasures in the hands of one he can trust.
But no evidence of greater Evil in Dol Guldur, despite Gandalf's suspicions, until Radagast investigates and is attacked by The Witch-King and The Necromancer (perhaps both being both stronger and assuming that they had a better chance of catching and silencing Radagast than they did of doing so with Gandalf, whose power might already have been on frightening display in disbanding the orcs. Of the Five Wizards who came, Radagast is generally suggested to have been the least (though still Great), while Gandalf is second in rank and status only to Saruman, despite being possibly more modest in casual presentation than the likes of Alatar and Pallando). We see Gandalf's response to Radagast and his news from the start. It is NOT the response that Elrond and Saruman give, dubious to the point of being dismissive. It is a wary, "tell me more. Supposedly nothing dwells there, but your ill news doesn't really surprise me, somehow, and I am interested to hear the details." Certainly he does not doubt any part of Radagast's tale, and thinks it very important that The Brown Wizard finishes relaying it to him.
It is entirely feasible, from that exchange, to conclude that he has long had concerns about Dol Guldur, but never anything concrete to base them on, at least not since The Watchful Peace began, until Radagast goes and is attacked by The Witch-King of Angmar and chased by Sauron. And, if Elrond and Saruman's response even to Radagast's tale and a Nazgul-Morgul blade is any indicatory, he wouldn't have kept going to them with little more to report than a bad feeling and the fact that he had once caught a band of orcs there and stopped them from tormenting an old dwarf. I am absolutely fascinated to see how they construct these three movies out of the source material so I love these types of questions and you did say "almost"
The Book
Chapters 7 through 12
The developed material
Gandalf/Radagast visit to the tombs in the high fells. The company haven't had a progress meeting since Rivendell and to ask Gandalf for an up date on where he has been seems logical or simply prologue it. One other potential prologue is the story of Thrain giving the key and map to Gandalf for safe keeping and then leaving to return for Erebor during which he is waylaid and captured by young Bolg.
Gandalf in the book leaves the company at the end of chapter 7 so I expect the sub plot to move all the way through its story arc in Part 11. In LOTR terms a kind of Helms Deep finish. So we will see Gandalf's visit to Dol Gulder where I now expect Thrain still to be alive and Gandalf is made aware that his ring has been taken by the necromencer. Bolg will obviously feature and Gandalf may barely escape and bring in the cavalry.
This part could be the most satisfying as the sub plot is revealed and we get great work on Beorn/Spiders/Elves/Laketown/Erebor and Dale post holocaust. I expect much greater depth of characterisation for both the Elven and Laketown segments than the book.
But as Manuel says "I know nothing"
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Jan 4 2013, 10:35pm
Post #8 of 9
(260 views)
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Visits to Dol Gulder interacting with Thrain (one or two)
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Thank you for reminding us of your speculative views. We can talk in mid december as to whom was right!
Rereading my post I can see a flaw in Thrain benignly letting Gandalf having the key and map and then attempting to return to Erebor!.
One of the Tolkien plot holes is this notion this mad deranged prisoner was able to hide a map and a key but not a ring in all the years he was incarcerated. It might make sense at a heirarchy of spirit level but not in the physical world. Somehow the way Gandalf says in Bag End the key was given to him for safe keeping sounded straight forward and no further explanation was required. Did he really just forget to tell Thorin that he had met his father in the most distressing of states to save his feelings?
If Chris Lee's rehearsal lines about the Dwarf rings survive into the 2nd meeting of the council then I am guessing that it is a responce to Gandalf returning from Dol Gulder to report on what he found mad Thrain dispossessed by Sauron and tortured by Bolg.
I know you are very strong on supporting and reminding us, quite correctly in my view, of Tolkiens sense of the heirarchy of spirits. Bolg is of course no match for Gandalf but an embryonic black Maia is. On his visit to DG he will deal with Thrain/Bolg and the revelation of the Necromencer and will barely escape.
Incidentally whilst Gandalf was in my view misreported by PJ in the ROTK in his EE interactions with the WK, to portray him as doubting his ability with a kind of christ like humilty makes him in my view the greater wiser spirit. At the White Council when Galadriel echo their Many Partings telepathy there is Saruman holding forth as the avuncular elder statesmen full of pomp and all puffed up and two of the council are not listening. It maybe Saruman before his fall but it shows his pride, which was his ultimate undoing, rather neatly.
I tried to save the shire , and it has been but not for me.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jan 4 2013, 10:38pm)
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Jan 5 2013, 12:46am
Post #9 of 9
(250 views)
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I think the key to the map and key escaping Sauron's notice
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as a certain Wizard saw it, was that having gained back The Ring he sought, the dwarf was of no more interest to him. He knew what he was looking for, he retrieved it early, and what else mattered?! And that is not strange behaviour. It is common enough for people to stop searching, in general and at least for a while, if they find exactly what they are looking for. If the girl or guy of your dreams falls into your lap from The Heavens (or The Havens), other people might still catch your eye from time to time, but you almost certainly aren't going to be fishing at the bar, or events or searching through internet match maker sights any time soon.
Searching every crack and crevice, as yon Great Goblin would put it, is generally a sound method for turning up useful and valuable secret treasures (and it still boggles me that Frodo is found with his neat little trouser pants on in Return of The King. . . there are Elves who wouldn't curtail there search so politely, and certainly no orc would, nor can one imagine a goblin being concerned over the lad's decency and helping him dress anew after the search), but Sauron found EXACTLY what he wanted. No hidden pocket knife or fancy necklace or swallowed sapphire or ruby would have been of much concern to him once the mightiest of The Seven had been recovered. It is feasible that he would have left Thrain to die with little more than a second thought, save that the torment of being stripped of a Great Ring might be more harrowing than a sudden slaying.
Thank you and I agree with you on the Maia business ( I wish he hadn't been quite so embryonic in appearance lol). Though I am not sure both incidents will happen at the same time. I think Gandalf will have a near brush with either Sauron or whatever Nazgul are relevant (we saw their foremost figure in this movie), and I am hoping ( gaurdedly and without too much expectation) that we may get some recreation of the Amon Sul battle between Wizard and Wraiths that was left out of Fellowship ". . . they felt the coming of my anger, and they dared not face it whilst the Sun was in the Sky. . . but at night they closed round . . . and I was besieged. . . such Light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war beacons of olde!" I can hope, but we shall see, but I don't know that it will be at the same time as his Bolg or Thrain encounter. I still think it possible, especially when they commented that they had tried to put the Thrain content at the beginning of this film, and also based on the seeming lack of Glamdring in that scene, that Gandalf finds Thrain in Dol Guldur, but no evidence of any greater evil than Orcs, but returns there upon Radagast's report. Thank you for reminding us of your speculative views. We can talk in mid december as to whom was right!
Rereading my post I can see a flaw in Thrain benignly letting Gandalf having the key and map and then attempting to return to Erebor!.
One of the Tolkien plot holes is this notion this mad deranged prisoner was able to hide a map and a key but not a ring in all the years he was incarcerated. It might make sense at a heirarchy of spirit level but not in the physical world. Somehow the way Gandalf says in Bag End the key was given to him for safe keeping sounded straight forward and no further explanation was required. Did he really just forget to tell Thorin that he had met his father in the most distressing of states to save his feelings?
If Chris Lee's rehearsal lines about the Dwarf rings survive into the 2nd meeting of the council then I am guessing that it is a responce to Gandalf returning from Dol Gulder to report on what he found mad Thrain dispossessed by Sauron and tortured by Bolg.
I know you are very strong on supporting and reminding us, quite correctly in my view, of Tolkiens sense of the heirarchy of spirits. Bolg is of course no match for Gandalf but an embryonic black Maia is. On his visit to DG he will deal with Thrain/Bolg and the revelation of the Necromencer and will barely escape.
Incidentally whilst Gandalf was in my view misreported by PJ in the ROTK in his EE interactions with the WK, to portray him as doubting his ability with a kind of christ like humilty makes him in my view the greater wiser spirit. At the White Council when Galadriel echo their Many Partings telepathy there is Saruman holding forth as the avuncular elder statesmen full of pomp and all puffed up and two of the council are not listening. It maybe Saruman before his fall but it shows his pride, which was his ultimate undoing, rather neatly.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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