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Tinkerbell
Menegroth
Dec 27 2012, 2:11am
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End of Middle-Earth
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I'm not here to troll tonight. I just have one question.
Does the line of Durin not have any descendents other than
Thorin Oakenshield, Kili, and Fili? Those three are lost after
the Battle of Five Armies. It is saddening that Azog and the goblins
endeavor to destroy the line of Durin, and essentially they accomplish
this feat at the battle.
As in LoTR, the Elves are leaving for the Grey Havens, and the Hobbits eventually
fade from memory. Durin's line is no more, and the proud prestige of Dwarven history,
yet manifested in the living heirs of Durin, becomes a mere whisper of
a bygone age. Lesser men inherit Middle-Earth and the vestiges of a wonderful world
with its fantastic creatures comes to an end.
Does Tolkien not leave one heir to perpetuate the line? If so it's a rending end to
everything magical in Middle-Earth.
ok...this does seem like bait  darn it!
(This post was edited by Dwarvenfury on Dec 27 2012, 2:17am)
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Elthir
Hithlum
Dec 27 2012, 2:01pm
Post #3 of 14
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In drafts for Appendix A Tolkien wrote:
'And the line of Dain prospered (...) the name of Durin, and he returned to Moria; and there was light again in deep places, and the ringing of hammers and the harping of harps, until the world grew old and the Dwarves failed and the days of Durin's race were ended.'
CJRT notes: 'It is impossible to discover whether my father did in fact reject this iea, or whether it simply became 'lost' in the haste with which the Appendices were finally prepared for publication. The fact that he made no reference to 'Durin VII and Last', though he appears in the genealogy in Appendix A, is possibly a pointer to the latter supposition.' The Peoples of Middle-earth
See also the abandoned Epilogue on this matter.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Dec 27 2012, 2:35pm
Post #4 of 14
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Magic faded but slowly in Middle-earth
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Not only did Dain Ironfoot continue the line of Durin, but magic would have remained strong in Middle-earth well into the Fourth Age. Most or all of the Eldar sailed West at the end of the Third Age, but many of the Sindar (apparently including Thranduil) and the Wood-elves stayed behind. The Hobbits continued to live quitely in their small communities. Among Men, King Elessar (Aragorn) and his heirs ruled the Reunited Kingdom and the line of Beorn kept a trace of shape-changing magic alive for at least a few more generations. One imagines that the descendants of Bard continued, as well, to understand bird-talk for some time to come.
I think that most of the remaining magic disappeared at the end of the Fourth Age, which may have ended in a catastrophe that marked the transition from Middle-earth to the Modern World. I base this on Professor Tolkien's estimate of the age of Middle-earth, which places the end of the Third Age at approximately the same time as the beginning of the Hebrew Calendar. This leads me to think that the end of the Fourth Age is analogous to the time of the Biblical Flood.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Bombadil
Gondolin
Dec 27 2012, 7:17pm
Post #5 of 14
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it is always been Bombys understanding..
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Since we are from the race of men..
we are all descendants of Aragon..
With a touch of elf inside
from Arwen's line...
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ElendilTheShort
Mithlond
Dec 27 2012, 7:29pm
Post #6 of 14
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Not all of us, and the idea behind that Bomby
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also considers the inclusion of the divine heritage of Melian. Tolkien wrote that the inclusion of the elves and Maia contributes to the greater achievements of humankind even until today and beyond. So someone like da Vinci may have been of this line whereas someone like me probably has a drunk Breelander or Ghan buri Ghan in my ancestory.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Dec 27 2012, 8:24pm
Post #7 of 14
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If you think that we would all be descendants of Aragorn...
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...then you might as well say that we are all descended from Beorn. Or from Bard. It just wouldn't be true.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Ethel Duath
Gondolin
Dec 27 2012, 9:10pm
Post #8 of 14
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I'd consider Ghan a worthy ancestor--smart, cunning and in command of his particular branch of knowledge.
Although winning beauty pageants would be kind of a reach . . . 
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Loresilme
Doriath
Dec 30 2012, 1:09am
Post #9 of 14
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"...a mere whisper of a bygone age. Lesser men inherit Middle-Earth and the vestiges of a wonderful world
with its fantastic creatures comes to an end. ... If so it's a rending end to
everything magical in Middle-Earth."
*********************
Those words could not have come from a troll of any kind, modern or ancient :).
I don't know the answer to your question.
But, after viewing AUJ, I have been thinking along the same lines ... that the ending of the final Hobbit film may well be even more heartbreaking than the ending of ROTK.
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ForestPark
Ossiriand
Jan 1 2013, 2:00pm
Post #10 of 14
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Thats why old timey bible guys lived so long. Noah was more than 500 when he started bulding the ark. Living 600 or 700 years was pretty common then. Must be elf blood! Now there or those scoffers that regard the whole LOTR thing as a work of fiction. But one of the Dead Sea scrolls does mention the Shire.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Jan 1 2013, 9:07pm
Post #11 of 14
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Well, the Fourth (Fifth?) Age catastrophe doesn't work in a scientific sense...
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However, we are discussing myth rather than reality, even if it is Tolkien's personally created mythology.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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ForestPark
Ossiriand
Jan 2 2013, 6:22pm
Post #12 of 14
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" Mythology is other people's religion "
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This 6000 yr figure has been mentioned by several people trying to meld myths but is this something that Tolkien addressed or is it a creation / exstrapolation of others thanks ?
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Jan 2 2013, 10:23pm
Post #13 of 14
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Yes. The figure comes from Tolkien...
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This 6000 yr figure has been mentioned by several people trying to meld myths but is this something that Tolkien addressed or is it a creation / exstrapolation of others thanks ?
I've long-ago misplaced my copy of Letters so I don't have the exact quote. Tolkien borrowed heavily from the Judeo/Christian creation story and from Norse mythology. Tolkien's mythology is, of course an invented one rather than an authentic religion.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 2 2013, 11:44pm
Post #14 of 14
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All of Thorin's company except Bifur, Bofur, and Bombur are Durin's descendents.
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If memory serves: from the incomplete family tree Tolkien provides, it appears the line of succession among dwarves alive at the time of The Hobbit is Thorin, Fili, Kili, Dain, Thorin III, Balin, Dwalin, Gloin, Gimli, and Oin. At the end of LOTR, six of these ten are dead, leaving Thorin III, Dwalin, Gloin (briefly), and Gimli.
Dori, Nori, and Ori are more distant cousins.
Turning to the question of who today would be descended from Aragorn: I thought I read recently that the space of a few thousand years is enough time for everyone on earth to be descended from the same person.
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