Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Kili more important than Fili? *SPOILERS*
First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

Rostron2
Gondor


Jan 1 2013, 7:02pm

Post #26 of 41 (434 views)
Shortcut
Agree with this +1// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Jan 1 2013, 7:48pm

Post #27 of 41 (464 views)
Shortcut
That's pretty much my feelings on the character... [In reply to] Can't Post

Particularly with your point about how the film makers have pushed Turner's character at us left, right and centre in the marketing. It's interesting in the Weta Chronicles how they talk about the design decisions they made:


Quote

"Aiden Turner, who was cast as Kili, has really fine features. To cover him up with prosthetics just wasn't going to work. We tried subtle prosthetic noses and foreheads to try and square him up, like we imagined a Dwarf might look, but they just kept getting smaller and smaller with every version. Peter Fran and Philippa really wanted to retain his handsmome looks, so the less we put on his face, the better. It was the same story with the tatooes and facial hair." Lindsey Crummett, (Weta Workshop Designer)

"Fili and Kili, being the youngest and handsomest, were our sexy Dwarves, but it was a challenge to keep them that way while still trying to transform them into what people expect a Dwarf to look like. We went through many refinements for Kili. We found that too much prosthetic on his brow risked making him look thuggish, and making his nose bigger could be clownish. He had to be hunky but fresh-faced. We also made beards for everyone, but t came down to letting him grow his own because it was to be very short." Peter King (Make-up nd Hair Designer.)



I guess for me Fili works better because he has a more characterful face, and manages to look Dwarvish with the braids and short beard, whilst retaining boyish good looks and that cheeky grin, where as Turner has not been given any Dwarvish embellishments to his features or hair and simply relies on the body padding and costume, and still comes off looking like an erstwhile teenage Aragorn. As many have commented previouslt, his own curly black hair and thick beard as seen in the early press conferences would have made a more realistic Dwarf, but considering it made him look too close in age to RA's Thorin, that's probably why they rejected his natural look.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort






(This post was edited by Eleniel on Jan 1 2013, 7:49pm)


CathrineB
Rohan


Jan 1 2013, 8:20pm

Post #28 of 41 (441 views)
Shortcut
Oh these two... [In reply to] Can't Post

I have so many feelings and opinions about these two guys because Fili and Kili has been my two favorite dwarves since I read the book for the first time in 2002-ish. At the same time I NEVER really had a mental image of them. I couldn't really picture them clearly so I'm just happy that they now have a face, but even more because I think both Dean and Aidan are good actors though I'm a little more known with Aidan from Being Human. He's a damn fine actor. Acting wise that is. He is so brilliant with emotions and humor. It makes me wonder if that's another reason why he was cast. To make their end even much of a heartbreaker because the actor can pull it off. I wish so much that the sexy dwarf thing wouldn't be so in focus with the two of them because of those reasons.

That being said I hope we see more of them working together in the following movies too. I love Fili just as much as I love Kili. I love their relationship and how it's done in the movie.
Though there is no doubt why these two are pulled further in front of other dwarves considering what happens to them. We need to get invested in them for their end to have an effect on us.

As for whether one or both will live, I doubt it. I doubt it so hard because Peter LOVES to screw with his fans lol. He'll make us love'em and take them out until our heart bleeds. He LOVES this. The heartbreaking, deep moments. So I fully believe they will die. Thorin probably - most likely more up front than them of course, but yeah. They're going to die and we're going to cry and Peter will love it.


(This post was edited by CathrineB on Jan 1 2013, 8:22pm)


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Jan 1 2013, 8:40pm

Post #29 of 41 (418 views)
Shortcut
Well said. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I guess for me Fili works better because he has a more characterful face, and manages to look Dwarvish with the braids and short beard, whilst retaining boyish good looks and that cheeky grin, where as Turner has not been given any Dwarvish embellishments to his features or hair and simply relies on the body padding and costume, and still comes off looking like an erstwhile teenage Aragorn. As many have commented previouslt, his own curly black hair and thick beard as seen in the early press conferences would have made a more realistic Dwarf, but considering it made him look too close in age to RA's Thorin, that's probably why they rejected his natural look.


I couldn't agree more on Fili, whom i immediately liked back when the first dwarf images surfaced. His features and characteristics look sufficiently dwarvish, but with a boyish, rakish charm, while still being ruggedly handsome, which they were obviously going for.

As far as those quotes from the Weta Chronicles book, that's why i always mentioned casting along with design in the development of the Kili character. I don't want to use the word miscast, but they did go a certain direction when they cast him, a decidedly non-dwarvish direction, and that affected how that character turned out. But it seems that Kili has plenty of fans, so i guess it can't be called a mistake. By my view, though, they were spot on with all the other dwarves (well, Thorin's too young, but whatever). But Kili's passable as he is, and, to paraphrase Meat Loaf... 12 out of 13 ain't bad.


marillaraina
Rohan

Jan 1 2013, 10:06pm

Post #30 of 41 (382 views)
Shortcut
:) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
While we want all 13 dwarves to have significant camera time and individual characters, it is impossible. Even if there were 13 films instead of three, there's no time. One thing I've learned very quickly from this board (and from Jackson's films) is that some people love certain characters, some was equality, some want Tolkien's dialog to stay with the same dwarf Tolkien gave it to, and some just want to replace Peter Jackson in the director's chair.

I thought Merry's character was horribly pushed aside in LotR. (Not to mention Fatty Bolger)

Even if all the dwarves' dialog were split in equal 1/13th shares, some of us would start counting the letters to see if that was balanced, too. And a few of us would translate each line into dwarvish to see if it balanced there, too.

Fili and Kili deserve equal time and equal deaths, but it won't happen. Even Tolkien paired or trio-ed the dwarves so he didn't even have to try to differentiate them all. Sadly, Fili and Kili are more a pair than two separate dwarves.

I think giving Kili the bulk of the lines will help the audience connect with the pair, rather than trying to divide the lines and emotional connection between both.

In my own way, I'm hoping PJ leaves some of the dwarves in the background. I like a little left to my imagination.


I think it's important to remember that Fili's actor changed at the very last minute, I think it was a month or at least a few weeks into the filming. It's entirely likely that where some smaller bits of characterization that were not re-filmed due to time and filming restrictions. As it is there are a few scenes where you can tell it's Rob Kazinsky.

Besides which IMO as you say, choosing one of them to focus on actually increased the emotional connection to the pair instead of splitting the same amount of dialogue and time between two characters. Fili benefits from his connection to Kili, from what I've seen around that part of fandom that's coming up, they are considered still considered a pair.

Kili does most of the work, Fili reaps half the benefits. LOL

And anyway Turner may be nice to look at, but it's not like he can't act. He's a really good actor, has a very expressive face and IMO managed to do a lot with what he was given, which truly was actually not that much. But between the writing and the acting a definite and likeable, imo, personality emerged. And it ultimately reflected on Fili as well because if Kili isn't by Thorin then he's generally by Fili.

I think when it comes to their deaths though, they will have equal deaths, precisely for that reason. Perhaps people might feel a bit more for Kili if he's had a bit more previous development, but utlimately it's going to be the deaths of both and they are going to looked upon as a pair and it's going to be equally tragic and I believe equal screen time(which isn't going to be that much, imo, Thorin's death is the biggie, Kili and Fili's deaths are there to hammer home the tragedy of what has occurred).


marillaraina
Rohan

Jan 1 2013, 10:47pm

Post #31 of 41 (439 views)
Shortcut
:) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
just taking some of the time given to the least interesting dwarf with the most screen time(Kili), and giving it to one of the more interesting, well defined dwarves (Balin, Bofur, Dwalin, Dori). I don't even have anything against Kili really. He's fine i guess, and Aidan Turner is an appealing actor. It's just that there's not much to his character, and these other dwarves are much stronger characters, and screen time is valuable. Also, i get the feeling that he's being forced on us a bit for, as i said earlier, the ladies.


How do you figure there is not much to his character? It sounds like the character is being judged based on how he looks. How are Dwalin, Bofur and Dori more "defined and interesting"?

As well part of the whole point of the younger dwarves and I think perhaps Kili's role in particular is that he IS young and he is defining himself. This quest is going to be of central importance to his defining of himself. How are characters who have already defined themselves more interesting than the story of a character who hasn't? I'm not saying they are less interesting but I fail to see how they are more interesting as a story in a film.

As it is with Kili we see a lot of points that can come up for development in later films. For one there is the obvious, his maturity - experiencing real life danger and hardship. Seeing how these things change him or how he handles various situations.

He seems to idolize Thorin, it's like he always wants to be of use to him. That seems to be why he's always trying to be near him - like "here I am, call on me!!".

On the other hand he doesn't have a lot of Thorin's prejudices(which Thorin has for his own reasons, often for what are very understandable reasons), he's open, he's friendly. In some ways he seems to kind of identify with Bilbo, at the very least he seems to like him and is somewhat protective of him.

And it makes sense, Bilbo is new to this, well so is Kili to a certain extent. He may be a trained fighter(and from what we see a good one considering what is probably lack of " real world" experience), but otherwise he's as new, in his own way, to adventuring as Bilbo is. He was quite happy to see Bilbo had returned after the Goblin incident.

As well it's likely he'll be more quick to warm to the elves, and not just because Tauriel is "hot". :D If that Lego set is anything to go by she'll save his life, so sure she's beautiful, but she's also brave and an example that run's counter to Thorin's example of the elves leaving them in their time of need.(Not saying it negates it, but it shows it isn't cut and dry "all elves are the same").

And this actually is not counter to the book - Kili and Fili were the only ones(besides I think Bombur?) who were said to not agree with Thorin's approach to the whole sharing of the wealth thing. All of this actually helps set that up. In the book it wasn't stated if their disagreement was spoken out loud but it's likely it will be in the film.

And yet they die for Thorin, they die trying to protect him.

There is plenty to Kili's character and a part of that is the character discovering who he is, discovering his potential, just in time to die for it. That makes for a pretty heartbreaking character arc when you think about it.

And it compounds the tragedy of Thorin's arc, Kili and Fili, so promising, so much potential for greatness themselves and they die at least in part because Thorin allowed himself to be taken away from reason.


(This post was edited by marillaraina on Jan 1 2013, 10:54pm)


CathrineB
Rohan


Jan 1 2013, 11:12pm

Post #32 of 41 (391 views)
Shortcut
Holy wow THAT was an amazing post!! *applause* [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
just taking some of the time given to the least interesting dwarf with the most screen time(Kili), and giving it to one of the more interesting, well defined dwarves (Balin, Bofur, Dwalin, Dori). I don't even have anything against Kili really. He's fine i guess, and Aidan Turner is an appealing actor. It's just that there's not much to his character, and these other dwarves are much stronger characters, and screen time is valuable. Also, i get the feeling that he's being forced on us a bit for, as i said earlier, the ladies.


How do you figure there is not much to his character? It sounds like the character is being judged based on how he looks. How are Dwalin, Bofur and Dori more "defined and interesting"?

As well part of the whole point of the younger dwarves and I think perhaps Kili's role in particular is that he IS young and he is defining himself. This quest is going to be of central importance to his defining of himself. How are characters who have already defined themselves more interesting than the story of a character who hasn't? I'm not saying they are less interesting but I fail to see how they are more interesting as a story in a film.

As it is with Kili we see a lot of points that can come up for development in later films. For one there is the obvious, his maturity - experiencing real life danger and hardship. Seeing how these things change him or how he handles various situations.

He seems to idolize Thorin, it's like he always wants to be of use to him. That seems to be why he's always trying to be near him - like "here I am, call on me!!".

On the other hand he doesn't have a lot of Thorin's prejudices(which Thorin has for his own reasons, often for what are very understandable reasons), he's open, he's friendly. In some ways he seems to kind of identify with Bilbo, at the very least he seems to like him and is somewhat protective of him.

And it makes sense, Bilbo is new to this, well so is Kili to a certain extent. He may be a trained fighter(and from what we see a good one considering what is probably lack of " real world" experience), but otherwise he's as new, in his own way, to adventuring as Bilbo is. He was quite happy to see Bilbo had returned after the Goblin incident.

As well it's likely he'll be more quick to warm to the elves, and not just because Tauriel is "hot". :D If that Lego set is anything to go by she'll save his life, so sure she's beautiful, but she's also brave and an example that run's counter to Thorin's example of the elves leaving them in their time of need.(Not saying it negates it, but it shows it isn't cut and dry "all elves are the same").

And this actually is not counter to the book - Kili and Fili were the only ones(besides I think Bombur?) who were said to not agree with Thorin's approach to the whole sharing of the wealth thing. All of this actually helps set that up. In the book it wasn't stated if their disagreement was spoken out loud but it's likely it will be in the film.

And yet they die for Thorin, they die trying to protect him.

There is plenty to Kili's character and a part of that is the character discovering who he is, discovering his potential, just in time to die for it. That makes for a pretty heartbreaking character arc when you think about it.

And it compounds the tragedy of Thorin's arc, Kili and Fili, so promising, so much potential for greatness themselves and they die at least in part because Thorin allowed himself to be taken away from reason.



sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Jan 1 2013, 11:36pm

Post #33 of 41 (363 views)
Shortcut
All that sounds great, [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm just not seeing any of that up on the screen.

All i'm saying is that out of all the dwarves, he's the least interesting *to me*, and my least favorite; and that i question the motivations behind how PJ and Co. chose to bring him to the screen and how that affected the character we see up there. That's all. He's not terrible or anything; in fact, he's perfectly adequate-- better than i thought he'd be, actually. I just happen to think that all the other dwarves were pulled off better, either visually or through characterization.

Considering what we could have gotten, i think that the dwarves are overall a huge success, and one of my favorite parts of the film.

Now i think i'm done talking about Kili!


marillaraina
Rohan

Jan 1 2013, 11:49pm

Post #34 of 41 (351 views)
Shortcut
;) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I'm just not seeing any of that up on the screen.

All i'm saying is that out of all the dwarves, he's the least interesting *to me*, and my least favorite; and that i question the motivations behind how PJ and Co. chose to bring him to the screen and how that affected the character we see up there. That's all. He's not terrible or anything; in fact, he's perfectly adequate-- better than i thought he'd be, actually. I just happen to think that all the other dwarves were pulled off better, either visually or through characterization.

Considering what we could have gotten, i think that the dwarves are overall a huge success, and one of my favorite parts of the film.

Now i think i'm done talking about Kili!


That's funny. I saw it up on screen(aside from the stuff that talks about what it possibly means for future films, which I saw of course in my crystal ball). :) Shame you didn't, it was good stuff. LOL


Also something I thought about after my other post couldn't be edited anymore. PJ and Co seem to have chosen one dwarf out of each dwarf grouping to characterize more strongly.

Balin and Dwalin - he characterized(in keeping with the book) Balin most strongly.

Bofur, Bifur, Bombur - he characterized Bofur most strongly(played by the most recognizable actor, who also is relatively normal looking compared to his brother and cousin).

Ori, Nori, Dori - tough one because Ori did get a bit, probably due to his erm...role...in LOTR but seemed like Dori got the most lines and characterization.

Oin and Gloin? You know I think Oin was actually a bit stronger but I don't think there was a big different.

And with Kili and Fili, Kili was more strongly characterized. And he is Thorin's nephew and he does die - so it makes sense that he'd be one of the top ones overall.

It's hardly like it is a situation where only Kili was singled out.

As for the other "motivations" Jackson was apparently a fan of Aidan's show, Being Human, so maybe his reasons for "forcing him on you" are far more "mundane" and he simply really likes him as an actor and feels he can pull off something with the character, a theme of the plot, Jackson wants pulled off?


(This post was edited by marillaraina on Jan 1 2013, 11:59pm)


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Jan 2 2013, 12:49am

Post #35 of 41 (356 views)
Shortcut
No, Kili was not singled out. [In reply to] Can't Post

Aside from Thorin, we got a lot of Balin and Bofur (my personal fave). And we got plenty of memorable moments from Dwalin, Fili and Ori as well. So it's not like i think Kili was stealing the spotlight or anything, and if i gave that impression i didn't mean to.

I'm really hoping the next film has a little more time to stretch it's legs a bit, and we get more time with *all* the dwarves.


Rane
Bree

Jan 2 2013, 3:20am

Post #36 of 41 (324 views)
Shortcut
Well *spoilers* [In reply to] Can't Post

Fili is going to die too.

I never meant to imply that Kili and Fili get more screen time than any other dwarf. I was just wondering if Peter Jackson is making Kili his darling out of the brothers.

But others have said that Fili's actor was changed at the last second, so now it does make more sense that Kili is the more prominent of the two, for now at least.

I don't want to start a flame war, I never did. I think It's sweet of Kili to be so concerned about his uncle's approval.


(This post was edited by Rane on Jan 2 2013, 3:20am)


marillaraina
Rohan

Jan 2 2013, 4:08am

Post #37 of 41 (315 views)
Shortcut
Yes [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Fili is going to die too.

I never meant to imply that Kili and Fili get more screen time than any other dwarf. I was just wondering if Peter Jackson is making Kili his darling out of the brothers.

But others have said that Fili's actor was changed at the last second, so now it does make more sense that Kili is the more prominent of the two, for now at least.

I don't want to start a flame war, I never did. I think It's sweet of Kili to be so concerned about his uncle's approval.



LOL I don't think any flame wars are going to start. :)

Yes he is going to die too and that's why I said I fully believe his death scene is going to have as much attention as Kili's. :)

In fact I'm pretty sure they'll probably die in the same scene, I don't have any proof of that but it just seems like dramatically it would make the most sense seeing as they both fall defending Thorin. Honestly in the film they are almost always together, they are rarely far from each other.

We see them sitting next to each other, sleeping next to each other, eating next to each other, riding next to each other, they share the same tree at the end and they share the same eagle. They are often given the same duties(like watch the ponies), they are the ones used to highlight the drama of the Stone Giants scene and make it more than just a special effects scene(even if some people seem to miss the "human...erm...dwarven element":)), when they are pulled apart as Fili calls to Kili and Kili looks devastated.

But Kili is described in one of those movie tie in books as the more "irrepressible" one and a bit rebellious(which I think is something that we'll likely see start to come out in the next film), so I imagine whatever else comes into it and the reasons for it, etc he might end up with more face time based on his personality traits, personality traits which let's face it, were probably settled on before they'd even cast the actor.


Kimtc
Rohan

Jan 2 2013, 5:03am

Post #38 of 41 (294 views)
Shortcut
The non-reader reaction will be interesting [In reply to] Can't Post

Usually someone who didn't read a book before a movie reads it after, but many a casual reader doesn't get too far into the Hobbit (the songs usually stop them). So I suspect large numbers will be surprised; when Boromir died I had friends who couldn't believe it. And that was at the end of just one movie. I can hear them coming out of the theatre, if they aren't crying, which I am practically doing and I have no idea how it will play out onscreen (as I said earlier, for me in the book it's more of a "WTF?" moment).


Owain
Tol Eressea


Jan 2 2013, 5:13am

Post #39 of 41 (291 views)
Shortcut
Welcome to tORN! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think when it is all said in done... or when we've all gone there and back again... we will be able to tell what weight all of the characters will have been provided, no?

I think Kili definitely has the edge right now between Fili and Kili... which is true for some of the others in the company as well.

Thorin, Balin, and Bifur all had really key moments (with Thorin obviously having the lion's share) in this first act. I think with Beorn's Hall, Mirkwood, the Elven King's Dungeons, Barrells, LakeTown, and of course the Lonely Mountain... that there is a lot of room to expand all of the Dwarves characters from the opening act in this next act, The Desolation of Smaug.

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Jan 2 2013, 8:38am

Post #40 of 41 (261 views)
Shortcut
Patience... [In reply to] Can't Post

Referring back to the Sibley Official Movie Guide thread

I did quote Philppa Boyens on how they decided to feature the Dwarves:


Quote

Clearly writing for so many characters, as individuals and as a Company, was a challenge. "What we didn't want to do", says Philippa, "was overload the film with too much information upfront. When you read Tolkien's books you see that he reveals his characters gradually in the telling of the story so we tried to follow his lead. Rather than panic about having thirteen Dwarves and the audience needing to know all about them, we allowed them to become known to us as they become known to Bilbo."




"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort






Aelfan
Registered User


Jan 2 2013, 7:28pm

Post #41 of 41 (281 views)
Shortcut
For Kili [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd say I'm on the pro-Kili side here. I am very aware of the estrogen-pumping aspect of the character as my 17-year old daughter makes little squeeling noises when I mention him; but the death of Fili and Kili as they protect their mother's brother with their own bodies is perhaps the most epic part of the whole story, when the child's tale that the Hobbit really was makes a nod to Tolkien's professional subject matter like Maldon and Beowulf; and the epic subject matter that was already the background to the story. I suspect that PJ's greatest artistic challenge will be to get their end in the battle of Five Armies perfectly done. It will be the conclusion of the story, like when the Ring went down Mount Doom. Kili, as the youngest and most inexperienced dwarf, is the character that carries us toward that conclusion in a way that even Bilbo doesn't.


(This post was edited by Aelfan on Jan 2 2013, 7:31pm)

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.