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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Saruman talks to the Council about the Seven Rings in this production video
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HiddenSpring
Lorien

Jan 1 2013, 7:59pm

Post #26 of 68 (378 views)
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No one in the movies has ever teleported [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know where people get this idea from. I'm sure Galadriel and Saruman rode horses to get to Rivendell as everyone else. Well, Radagast may use a bunny-sled, but that's still not teleporting.

When Galadriel seemingly vanishes into thin air in AUJ, I take it as a visual representation of her elusiveness, not that she can actually teleport; she isn't a Power Ranger. And she was no projection either; projections don't interact with people's hairs.

The only time where she was probably projecting herself was in TTT, because she was clearly in Lórien while Elrond listened to her in Rivendell. The emphasis on the different locations clearly indicates that there was no physical interaction between Elrond and Galadriel there, unlike the White Council scene where all four characters interact with each other.

The Frodo and Galadriel scene in ROTK is also an interesting one, but I believe that was just a vision of Galadriel, fueled by the magic of the phial.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jan 1 2013, 7:59pm

Post #27 of 68 (383 views)
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I don't like that either [In reply to] Can't Post

Telepathy I'm fine with since it's clearly from the books. But projection is at best questionable. I've never read the book that way, but I can see why one would.

And I didn't like Galadriel's teleportation or projection or whatever it was in AUJ. I hope PJ doesn't rely on it like a crutch in order to bring the council together whenever he feels like it. Unsure

There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jan 1 2013, 8:02pm

Post #28 of 68 (371 views)
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It's from some report before AUJ came out [In reply to] Can't Post

About Galadriel fading in and out. As it was in the movie, it's certainly a mystery, but thankfully I don't have to think about it as teleporting if I don't want to. Her elusiveness is a far better explanation.

There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Jan 1 2013, 8:06pm

Post #29 of 68 (365 views)
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Teleportation is in the eye of the beholder... [In reply to] Can't Post

As far as I am concerned, Galadriel was physically there...her "disappearing" was simply PJ using sleight of hand to make her look elusive and ethereal. As I and others have mentoned before, if you look closely at Gandalf's face when he looks up after their hand clasp, you can clearly see his eyes following Galadriel's movement away from him off-camera.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






(This post was edited by Eleniel on Jan 1 2013, 8:08pm)


HiddenSpring
Lorien

Jan 1 2013, 8:11pm

Post #30 of 68 (354 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

She is also physically present in the White Council meeting. She tells Saruman to shut up (which he does) and Elrond interacts with her too, not just Gandalf.

Bottom line, Galadriel can ride a horse. It's in the books!Tongue


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jan 1 2013, 8:12pm

Post #31 of 68 (348 views)
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Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think much of this has been because of the reports before the film came out of Galadriel fading in and out. Thankfully, that's not at all how it was in the film. I'll have to see it again to watch Gandalf's eyes.

There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).


Ruxendil_Thoorg
Grey Havens


Jan 1 2013, 8:19pm

Post #32 of 68 (343 views)
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Projection, meet hair. [In reply to] Can't Post

It still could have been a projection of her, even with her moving the hair.

She could have projected the thought of moving a hair, as an affectionate and comforting gesture. It could be that we saw on the screen what Galadriel willed Gandalf to see in his thoughts.

Or she could have magically summoned an actual rustle of wind to move the hair.

That may be farfetched, but more so than that she teleported?

A bag is like a hole that you can carry with you.

http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_expanded;


HiddenSpring
Lorien

Jan 1 2013, 8:42pm

Post #33 of 68 (342 views)
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It's all equally farfetched and unnecessary [In reply to] Can't Post

Originally in The Two Towers script, Elrond and Arwen went to Lothlórien and talked to Celeborn and Galadriel (there are stills of these lost scenes all over the internet). This was later scrapped and probably substituted by the Galadriel-Elrond long distance telepathy. It's a silly scene, because long distance calls are what palantírs are for, essentially, but it was the easiest thing storywise at the time.

Now, as for Galadriel being a projection or something in AUJ, there is nothing to support it, and it's an unnecessary complication - I think her slow-mo speech patterns give strange ideas to people. Maybe she just talks funny when you take her out of Lórien - she spoke slowly in the Gray Havens too.


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 1 2013, 9:09pm

Post #34 of 68 (358 views)
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I repeat, it's in the books [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Telepathy I'm fine with since it's clearly from the books. But projection is at best questionable. I've never read the book that way, but I can see why one would.



In Two Towers, when Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are camped out in the edge of Fangorn, they suddenly see an old man standing on the edge of their fire. They cautiously greet the figure but it simply dissappears, and as soon as it is gone, they discover that the horses have run away. Aragorn comments that it's useless to search for tracks, since it must have been a "wicked ghost of Saruman", or something in those lines. Gandalf later confirms that it wasn't him, as well.

In short, projecting oneself mentally to another location is something that powerful beings in Middle-Earth are capable of doing. There are several references to characters such as Celeborn and Elrond seeing things from afar, or shielding themselves from malevolent attentions of others, most notably by Galadriel. It's all in the canon, so why insist against utilizing it, like it has been effectively done severeal times already in the films?


DanielLB
Immortal


Jan 1 2013, 9:22pm

Post #35 of 68 (337 views)
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Here's the quote [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
'A bent blade is enough for Aragorn to read. But I do not expect him to find any traces. It was an evil phantom of Saruman that we saw last night. I am sure of it, even under the light of morning. His eyes are looking out on us from Fangorn even now, maybe.'


- The Two Towers: The White Rider

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



(This post was edited by DanielLB on Jan 1 2013, 9:23pm)


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 1 2013, 9:37pm

Post #36 of 68 (290 views)
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Thanks [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
'A bent blade is enough for Aragorn to read. But I do not expect him to find any traces. It was an evil phantom of Saruman that we saw last night. I am sure of it, even under the light of morning. His eyes are looking out on us from Fangorn even now, maybe.'



I've only read the English edition twice, and I don't have it at hand. Thanks for looking it up.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jan 1 2013, 9:47pm

Post #37 of 68 (284 views)
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I don't want it being used as a crutch [In reply to] Can't Post

that undermines the physicality of the world.

In the LOTR films, I liked the Aragorn and Arwen post-cliff dive scene. And I also like the Frodo and Galadriel scene in Shelob's lair. They're both tastefully done, IMO.

What I don't want from The Hobbit films is using projection or teleportation as a way of explaining why these people can just get together whenever they want. If that doesn't bother you, that's completely fine. It would bother me, though.

There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jan 1 2013, 9:49pm

Post #38 of 68 (287 views)
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This is one instance [In reply to] Can't Post

And while it's not Gandalf, I don't see why it couldn't be Saruman. Gimli is guessing. He has no clue. I would not take his guesses as a general rule that people can project themselves wherever they want to.

There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 1 2013, 10:12pm

Post #39 of 68 (277 views)
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It is Saruman, ofcourse. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And while it's not Gandalf, I don't see why it couldn't be Saruman. Gimli is guessing. He has no clue. I would not take his guesses as a general rule that people can project themselves wherever they want to.



It's a projection of Saruman who is present enough to spook horses. There are similar instances of multipresence throughout the canon mythology in many kinds of forms, sometimes as simple dream-visitations, sometimes actually being capable of fighting enemies as a projection, and presumably everything in between.

I really don't see why it would be a cruch as long as it's used sparingly in the films, just as it has been so far. Having one instance per film handled in a suitably subtle manner should be perfectly acceptable. For example, I could think of a scene where Gandalf is back in Rivendell with no explanation, but at the end of the scene the camera turns around to show his face like in a trace, and then he wakes up ,showing that he is in fact somewhere else. As long as a projection scene is handled well enough, I see no reason for complaint.


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Jan 1 2013, 10:14pm

Post #40 of 68 (266 views)
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that doesn't mean it was cut from AUJ [In reply to] Can't Post

they could still have other white council scenes in DOS.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty, oh will you please take me home!!


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jan 1 2013, 10:18pm

Post #41 of 68 (261 views)
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But that starts to beg the question [In reply to] Can't Post

Why don't they do that for everything?


Quote
There are similar instances of multipresence throughout the canon mythology in many kinds of forms, sometimes as simple dream-visitations, sometimes actually being capable of fighting enemies as a projection, and presumably everything in between.


Could you please give some examples for this? I'm seriously drawing a blank on anything like this. I'm not trying to be stupid or antagonistic or anything, I just seriously can't think of anything.

The only thing I can think of is Ulmo's dream-visions to Turgon and Finrod. But those are coming from a Vala not bound to physical flesh. Besides that, I can't think of anything else.

There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jan 1 2013, 10:20pm

Post #42 of 68 (251 views)
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I know that [In reply to] Can't Post

This is what I said -


Quote
And I don't see Gandalf going back to Rivendell for another meeting. I'm guessing it's just an extended bit from the AUJ council, and I hope it's in the EE.


Obviously just speculation on my part.

There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 1 2013, 10:33pm

Post #43 of 68 (251 views)
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That question can be made about a lot of things. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Why don't they do that for everything?


You can ask that about all the magic in all the books and films. It only seems to get used in plot-relevant times. At least for this there is a simple enough answer: the Wise are self-reliant people who don't want to run each other for help unless there is a very good reason. Even Radagast has a good enough reason to seek out Gandalf in person -- he couldn't very well have presented the Morgul blade for investigation if it wasn't actually there.


Quote
Could you please give some examples for this? I'm seriously drawing a blank on anything like this. I'm not trying to be stupid or antagonistic or anything, I just seriously can't think of anything.



In The Unfinished Tales there is a story of a Drúadan who carves a statue of himself and leaves it to guard an ally's house. The house is attacked by orcs, but an unseen defender drives them off. The statue turns out to have a chipped leg in the aftermath, and when the Drúadan returns, it turns out that he has an injured leg.

Since the LotR is told mainly from a hobbit perspective we never get a very clear look at how the wizards and elves do their communication, but it's often made clear that they have intercourse between each other from long distances, and can apparently see people in general from afar, in Celeborn's words, if they don't cloak themselves somehow. PJ seems to have interpreted that they can all use means that are similar to Saruman's, and I have no problem with that as long as it's handled well enough.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jan 1 2013, 10:48pm

Post #44 of 68 (243 views)
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Druadan [In reply to] Can't Post

Completely forgot about that wonderful little story. Thanks for reminding me of it!

Seeing afar is a trick subject, as is communication from afar. What is the purpose of the palantiri if people can see afar and communicate without them? We know from LOTR that the wise at least can communicate telepathically when near each other, but how far that goes is up to interpretation, I guess.

There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).


Vangalad
Lorien


Jan 1 2013, 11:02pm

Post #45 of 68 (238 views)
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The Enemy is defeated [In reply to] Can't Post

Saruman is very clear in the first Council meeting : ''the Enemy is defeated'' and so he continues to rule out any possibility that Sauron could return and actually be the necromancer.
In this scene however we have him say that the Enemy needs the One to control the other rings, so this must be from a second meeting when it is most likely that there is proof about the true identity of the necromancer. The setting looks to be the same with the AUJ one,so perhaps the Wise will gather at Rivendell again...


All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 1 2013, 11:02pm

Post #46 of 68 (225 views)
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Magic is a tricky subject [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Seeing afar is a trick subject, as is communication from afar. What is the purpose of the palantiri if people can see afar and communicate without them? We know from LOTR that the wise at least can communicate telepathically when near each other, but how far that goes is up to interpretation, I guess.


There's always a ton of questions about how magic words and what its limitations are in stories that don't establish clear system for it, to preserve the sense of mystery. You could for example argue that the Palantíri have an unlimited range and can see places and people that the user is not familiar with, whereas "normal" elven telepathy is just limited to subjects that are well known to them. But really, there is to way to make any kind of certain arguments; I just know that there are points in the LotR where news travel faster than people, and characters make comments that suggest long-distance telepathic powers. For example Celeborns line: "I can not see him from afar" concerning Gandalf, which seems to imply that he can see many other things and people.


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Jan 1 2013, 11:06pm

Post #47 of 68 (233 views)
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The Palantir, [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder if Saruman could use it to project somehow?

Otherwise, I have always felt that it was Saruman himself they saw. I believe that Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas were camping near the area where the orcs were killed. It would make some sense to me that Saruman wanted to explore the area personally, and see if any trace of the Hobbits and possibly the Ring were there. I don't think he expected to meet up with the three, especially at night, and that is why he left abruptly.

" Well well!", said a voice. "Just look! Bilbo the hobbit on a pony, my dear! Isn't it delicious!"
"Most astonishing wonderful!"


Mardragon
The Shire

Jan 1 2013, 11:30pm

Post #48 of 68 (239 views)
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Concerning Saruman in The Two Towers.... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Otherwise, I
have always felt that it was Saruman himself they saw.


I interpreted that scene to mean he was actually physically there as well. I know there is the mention of 'an evil phantom of Saruman' but I wouldn't necessarily take the word 'phantom' literally to mean a spirit form.

That being said, I think such beings are capable of astral projection, but it's questionable if Saruman would be actually seen if he were there in spirit, as it were. Unless he wanted to be to freak them out, I guess. Which is quite possible.


Lightice
Lorien

Jan 1 2013, 11:38pm

Post #49 of 68 (214 views)
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Well, there's the thing... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
That being said, I think such beings are capable of astral projection, but it's questionable if Saruman would be actually seen if he were there in spirit, as it were. Unless he wanted to be to freak them out, I guess. Which is quite possible.



He left no tracks in that scene. If he was there in person, there should have been something for Aragorn to follow. Also, if he had been physically there, I don't understand why he wouldn't have done something worse to Aragorn and co. than just spook their horses.


irasel
The Shire


Jan 1 2013, 11:54pm

Post #50 of 68 (213 views)
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It's amazing we have ended talking about the Drúedain [In reply to] Can't Post

... Considering my initial post was about Saruman talking about the Seven Rings. It has become an interesting debate.
Getting back to the initial post, what do you think about its second part (my guess about Gandalf's meeting with Thrain twice)?

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