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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Kili more important than Fili? *SPOILERS*
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Rane
Bree

Jan 1 2013, 3:27am

Post #1 of 41 (1790 views)
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Kili more important than Fili? *SPOILERS* Can't Post

Hello, I'm new to the forum but not to the fandom.

Anyway...

So I've noticed that Kili seems to have more lines in The Hobbit than Fili, and more shots of him as well. Thorin also utilitises him more (yes, I understand he has a bow so that makes sense).

And if you've heard he might have some sort of romance with Tauriel.

Is Peter Jackson going to leave Fili in the dust when the death scene comes? He created a "hot" dwarf and he's going to show him off. I have no problem with fangirls thinking that, but I'm worried PJ is going to forget about Fili when the time comes.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jan 1 2013, 3:36am

Post #2 of 41 (925 views)
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I don't think there's anything to fear [In reply to] Can't Post

I have no doubts that Thorin's death will far outshine either of theirs. I expect both of theirs to be short and sweet like Haldir's, and Thorin's to be longer and really pack a punch.

There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall and the bells in the steeple, too.
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird is popping out to say coo-coo (coo-coo, coo-coo).


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Jan 1 2013, 3:39am

Post #3 of 41 (934 views)
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I started noticing this a while ago. [In reply to] Can't Post

It became pretty obvious when those banners came out-- Kili seemed to be featured in the front in nearly every scene. I mean, he's ok, but nothing great. Certainly he's no funnier or more appealing than any of the other dwarves (and that's not even mentioning his embarrassing complete lack of beard!). I guess they're doing this for the ladies, which seems kind of silly but whatevs. Give me more Balin, Bofur or Dwalin, or give Bombur a line for chrissakes!


Rane
Bree

Jan 1 2013, 3:44am

Post #4 of 41 (933 views)
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For the ladies [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, he's obviously doing it for the ladies. Sure he's good looking but he doesn't need to become a secondary character or whatever. There's no changing his mind now though.


Joe-Mathews
Rivendell


Jan 1 2013, 4:24am

Post #5 of 41 (820 views)
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Equal balance impossible [In reply to] Can't Post

While we want all 13 dwarves to have significant camera time and individual characters, it is impossible. Even if there were 13 films instead of three, there's no time. One thing I've learned very quickly from this board (and from Jackson's films) is that some people love certain characters, some was equality, some want Tolkien's dialog to stay with the same dwarf Tolkien gave it to, and some just want to replace Peter Jackson in the director's chair.

I thought Merry's character was horribly pushed aside in LotR. (Not to mention Fatty Bolger)

Even if all the dwarves' dialog were split in equal 1/13th shares, some of us would start counting the letters to see if that was balanced, too. And a few of us would translate each line into dwarvish to see if it balanced there, too.

Fili and Kili deserve equal time and equal deaths, but it won't happen. Even Tolkien paired or trio-ed the dwarves so he didn't even have to try to differentiate them all. Sadly, Fili and Kili are more a pair than two separate dwarves.

I think giving Kili the bulk of the lines will help the audience connect with the pair, rather than trying to divide the lines and emotional connection between both.

In my own way, I'm hoping PJ leaves some of the dwarves in the background. I like a little left to my imagination.

'There is some woe that lies upon you... Why will you not tell me more?'
'For that woe is past,' said Galadriel; 'and I would take what joy is here left, untroubled by memory. And maybe there is woe enough yet to come, thought still hope may seem bright.'


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 1 2013, 4:27am

Post #6 of 41 (823 views)
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The truth is... [In reply to] Can't Post

even Tolkien didn't give all the dwarves equal time. Some of them have only a line or two in the whole book. I don't think it's practical to try for equality in the movies either. If we get some sense of the personalities of all of them by the end, that'll be great.

Silverlode






entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 1 2013, 4:33am

Post #7 of 41 (784 views)
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It's hard to draw conclusions after only one movie. [In reply to] Can't Post

Those of us who have read the books know that future events will focus on different dwarves, and by the end of the three movies, I think all of them will have specific moments and plenty of lines to speak.


Kimtc
Rohan

Jan 1 2013, 4:36am

Post #8 of 41 (773 views)
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Used to think movie would have fewer dwarves [In reply to] Can't Post

I just assumed that when they finally made the movie that they would just cut some of them out for time and ease. Given how little many of them are developed in the book, this could have happened. So the fact that all 13 are there, for me, is gravy.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Jan 1 2013, 4:46am

Post #9 of 41 (748 views)
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I didn't suggest giving all the dwarves equal time, [In reply to] Can't Post

just taking some of the time given to the least interesting dwarf with the most screen time(Kili), and giving it to one of the more interesting, well defined dwarves (Balin, Bofur, Dwalin, Dori). I don't even have anything against Kili really. He's fine i guess, and Aidan Turner is an appealing actor. It's just that there's not much to his character, and these other dwarves are much stronger characters, and screen time is valuable. Also, i get the feeling that he's being forced on us a bit for, as i said earlier, the ladies.


Mahtion
Rivendell

Jan 1 2013, 4:59am

Post #10 of 41 (774 views)
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Kili just as good as other dwarves [In reply to] Can't Post

Dwalin and Balin get plenty of screen time and Bofur has quite a few important scenes (toying with Bilbo, catching Bilbo when he tries to leave). Kili and Fili are far more important than say Oin or Bombur. We know the less featured dwarves will have their time to shine in the next two movies. Yet another reason why a trilogy was needed to flesh out the dwarves.

Kili and Fili need screen time in order to make their demise far more poignant. We the audience must have a vested interest so their deaths have meaning. Kili has plenty of character, he is a young dwarf with a royal heritage yearning to prove himself and make his uncle Thorin proud. He is relatable because he likes to jest and his banter with Bilbo moves along the story like at the camp when Thorin scolds him and when Bilbo wishes to save the ponies from the trolls. He may be a Legolas type fan girl magnet but he is far better characterized than Legolas in FOTR. He may need more development but that should happen through the next two films. Bofur is still my favorite dwarf and Kili is maybe my fourth so it's not as if I need him to be the best or anything. I just think its bias to see him as undeveloped or boring simply because he is taking time away from dwarves some consider more interesting.


RhodeCamelot
The Shire


Jan 1 2013, 5:26am

Post #11 of 41 (730 views)
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Agreed! Not to mention quality > quantity [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In my own way, I'm hoping PJ leaves some of the dwarves in the background. I like a little left to my imagination.



#dftba


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 1 2013, 5:26am

Post #12 of 41 (765 views)
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If you haven't read the book, spoilers below. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's obvious to me, a book-firster, that Kili and Fili would get more attention than the other dwarves.


Rane
Bree

Jan 1 2013, 5:38am

Post #13 of 41 (726 views)
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Agreed *book spoilers again* [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote

Fili and Kili deserve equal time and equal deaths, but it won't happen. Even Tolkien paired or trio-ed the dwarves so he didn't even have to try to differentiate them all. Sadly, Fili and Kili are more a pair than two separate dwarves.



This is what I mean. They're both going to kick the bucket, I don't see why PJ can't give them more or less the same screen time. Then again, Legolas didn't get much time in Fellowship but he got more in the other two. I suppose there's hope but with Tauriel it will be pretty hard.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Jan 1 2013, 5:42am

Post #14 of 41 (720 views)
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Well, i'm stating my opinion, [In reply to] Can't Post

which i guess is biased. But i don't have an agenda, and i'm not particularly anti-Kili. It's just that out of all the dwarves, he'd be toward the bottom of my list of most interesting or favorite dwarves (i actually like Fili quite a bit more). And i definitely believe that he was designed and pushed to the forefront as, at best, the "relatable" dwarf (looking the most human), and, at worst, the "hot" dwarf. But as it turns out, in the actual movie he's fine and not much more. If anything, i'd like Fili and Kili to be even more of a team, playing off each other more (which there are hints of in AUJ).

I'm really not wanting to see more of any particular dwarf (we all have our favorites), i just want to see more interaction between them. That way we get to know the individuals more, and we get more of a sense of them as a group. The Hobbit would've been a lot better if there'd been more of this sort of thing in the last third of the film, among all the action sequences, which to me felt rushed and personality-less (excepting Riddles in the Dark of course). They just didn't seem to talk to each other all that much, and when they did (more in the beginning than the end), it was great fun, and added a lot to the movie. I really hope there's more of that in the EE, and in the next two films.


Avnar
Lorien


Jan 1 2013, 6:43am

Post #15 of 41 (807 views)
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I hate to be the one to point this out... [In reply to] Can't Post

***SPOILERS***

But maybe Kili doesn't die? Now before everyone calls me crazy -It is Peter Jackson we are talking about...

Thorin dies - Fili becomes king. Fili dies - Kili becomes king. Kili dies - Dain becomes king. That is how it is supposed to go right?

We all know what happens in the book, but will Jackson actually follow the book? You would think so...but he has already taken away important aspects of dains character. What if Dain is just the Dwarf Lord who rocks up with an army to "save the day" ?

God I hate to even think about this! Crazy


Mahtion
Rivendell

Jan 1 2013, 6:50am

Post #16 of 41 (751 views)
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A dreaded possibility [In reply to] Can't Post

The thought did cross my mind and I would not welcome the change any more than PJ sparing Thorin. At this time it is impossible to know what is in store for the traditional characters. If Glorfindel can be replaced by Appendix limited Arwen and Haldir can die at Helms deep, then I suppose Kili could survive as legitimate heir to become king under the mountain.


dubulous
Rohan

Jan 1 2013, 8:56am

Post #17 of 41 (671 views)
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I seriously doubt it [In reply to] Can't Post

And, based on what we already know of PJ's modus operandi, I'm not sure what would even make you fear such a thing? We know he has a tendency to change things, for sure, but none of those changes have ever altered the final outcome. Sometimes he chooses a different path to get where we want to end up, but in the end we still get there. Kili staying alive to succeed Thorin to the throne would be a change of a completely different nature than anything PJ has previously come up with.


DanielLB
Immortal


Jan 1 2013, 9:02am

Post #18 of 41 (671 views)
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Not sure that is true, is it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Whenever Kili talks in the film, so does Fili.

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 1 2013, 9:05am

Post #19 of 41 (659 views)
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So don't think about it... [In reply to] Can't Post

Wait and see.

Before the film came out we had months of people imagining the awful things Peter Jackson was going to do, and worrying about them, and talking themselves into a place where they were certain that this.... or that.... or some other totally self-generated piece of absurdity was going to ruin the film for them. And it didn't. They could have saved themselves all that angst.

Yes, of course Peter Jackson could do what you say, he could make a spaceship land in the middle of the battle and whisk them away, but why would he? Isn't it just as likely (much more, to my mind) that he is developing Fili and Kili in the way he is to increase the impact of what will happen to them? (Following the book, that is)

No point worrying over things that will probably never happen.


Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


Jan 1 2013, 1:16pm

Post #20 of 41 (626 views)
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Ah, that is an interesting theory I must say!. The thing is of course.. *book spoilers* [In reply to] Can't Post

that by leaving Fili alive.. he'd be the heir to the throne, not Dáin hmm.
ah I see people have already remarked upon this hehe.

It is rather problematic. Well, the whole issue of Dáin inheriting the throne may be problematic film-wise.. (?) I dunno

--I'm a victim of Bifurcation--
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Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!
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(This post was edited by Xanaseb on Jan 1 2013, 1:22pm)


carrioncrow
Lorien

Jan 1 2013, 2:49pm

Post #21 of 41 (543 views)
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Grouping [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems the screenplay has roughly grouped the dwarves.

1) Thorin
2) the "Veterans" - represented mostly by Balin in terms of dialogue but including others shown in the battle flashback: Dwalin, Oin, Gloin and maybe Bifur
3) the "Rookies" - Fili & Kili with Kili (serving as obvious analogue to Thorin) getting the focus of Film One.
4) the "Island of Misfit Toys" - with Bofur taking the lead (in terms of dialogue) for Bombur, Ori, Dori & Nori. We haven't seen their backstory yet.

This framework relieves the movies of having to have a fully developed story arc for each dwarf but allows us to get to know each of them as individuals and their relationships with each other.

If we are going to see Gimli at Bo5A (is that confirmed?) then that will obviously provide the occasion for Oin and Gloin to have a few interesting scenes.


(This post was edited by carrioncrow on Jan 1 2013, 2:55pm)


carrioncrow
Lorien

Jan 1 2013, 2:58pm

Post #22 of 41 (579 views)
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spoiler alert [In reply to] Can't Post

The REASON we are getting a healthy dose of KILI is BECAUSE he dies (and we, the audience, will need to be invested in his life). duh.


(This post was edited by carrioncrow on Jan 1 2013, 3:04pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 1 2013, 4:33pm

Post #23 of 41 (537 views)
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Why do you think Kili is the least interesting? [In reply to] Can't Post

He and Fili were my favourite dwarves long ago, before I'd heard of Peter Jackson or imagined there would ever be a film. I was a child when I read the book so I singled them out because they were the youngest and that was important to me then.

If anyone here had been asked about the dwarves before the casting was announced I don't believe Kili would have been singled out as 'the least interesting' or a weaker character. In the book he's more interesting than some of the others, who are really no more than names. At least we know he's one of the youngest dwarves, sharp-eyed and good with a bow, and Thorin's nephew - and we know what happens to him at the end.

Far as I can see, the anti-Kili feeling that keeps cropping up around here is nothing more than a reaction to the fact that a young and relatively good-looking actor was cast to play the part. Same thing happened with Legolas. The perception that this was done 'to please the ladies' (how patronising is that!) is enough to provoke this backlash among those who aren't ladies and don't want to be seen as such.... It has nothing to do with the character in the book or in the film, or with the way the actor plays it.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Jan 1 2013, 5:01pm

Post #24 of 41 (496 views)
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That's hard to say. [In reply to] Can't Post

I just don't find him very funny or compelling, and he doesn't seem very dwarf-like to me. Again, i don't hate him, i just don't find him deserving of so much screen time. But if others like him, that's cool-- he doesn't ruin the movie for me or anything.

I'll admit that, going into the movie, he was always my least favorite. I've always thought (as have many, many others) that he looks nothing like a dwarf, more like a Ranger from the north, and was obviously cast and designed to appeal to a certain demographic, which i guess is fine and to be expected. And i don't think it's just because he's a good looking guy. There are other good-looking dwarves, and i never had a problem with them, because they at least look more dwarf-like. Anyway, once the movie came out, but before i saw it, i saw the interviews with the actors, and Aidan Turner seemed like an alright, appealing guy. So i thought maybe Kili won't be so bad-- and he's not. He's just nothing special, but it seems the filmmakers think we should think so. That's the only thing i'm questioning here.

Really, it's no big deal. I don't even really see it as a flaw, and the film, while really good, has much bigger problems.

I'll just keep watching it, and re-watching it, like i have with the previous trilogy, and he'll just become a part of the fabric of these great films.


glor
Rohan

Jan 1 2013, 5:50pm

Post #25 of 41 (496 views)
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Practical problem perhaps? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
So I've noticed that Kili seems to have more lines in The Hobbit than Fili, and more shots of him as well



Perhaps the fact that Kili appears more prominent in AUJ is one of practicality and necessity caused by Robert Kazinsky's (the original Fili) departure after filming had started?
Considering that a month of dwarf filming had been done when Kazinsky left, Dean O'Gorman then stepped in and had an intensive dwarf training course before he could start on set. Fili may just have 'less' screen time in AUJ because PJ had less set time with Gorman and had to even edit out Kazinsky from some of the scenes..

... the prominence of Kili has probably got a lot more to do with an actor being replaced during the shoot, than writing and directorial decisions regarding the hotness of actors, Kazinsky is as relatively 'hot' as Turner (if you are into those things)




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