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Something i have never noticed before...

BornOutOfTheWest
Cabin Boy


Dec 29 2012, 1:16pm

Post #1 of 18 (1077 views)
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Something i have never noticed before... Can't Post

At the end of ROTK, when Gandalf comes to save Frodo and Sam there are 3 eagles. One that collects Frodo, one for Sam and the other one for.... GOLLUM? I think it's a nice touch that Gandalf still has faith in Gollum and so brings an eagle in case he's still alive. :)


FlyingSerkis
Cabin Boy

Dec 29 2012, 5:13pm

Post #2 of 18 (564 views)
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Nice thought! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd never considered that, but it actually sounds plausible to me. And I wonder, if Smeagol had still been alive when the ring perished... would he have found peace inside himself? And how long would he have lived after that? Years? Days? Minutes?

Smile


ForestPark
Cabin Boy


Dec 29 2012, 5:17pm

Post #3 of 18 (559 views)
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Good Lord !! [In reply to] Can't Post

The Hobbit reveals that eagles always show up extras to act as pass off players.


DanielLB
Captain


Dec 29 2012, 5:19pm

Post #4 of 18 (631 views)
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In the book.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien's reasons for having multiple eagles was in case one was killed (or something similar). I imagine it's the same reason for the film.

But I also like the idea of the third being for Gollum.

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belfalas
Powder Monkey

Dec 29 2012, 9:51pm

Post #5 of 18 (478 views)
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I thought it was Gandalf + 2 empties [In reply to] Can't Post



Magpie
Captain


Dec 29 2012, 10:01pm

Post #6 of 18 (482 views)
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yes, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

the eagle carrying Gandalf picked up one of the Hobbits so that left two empties for one Hobbit. :-)


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Magpie
Captain


Dec 29 2012, 10:24pm

Post #7 of 18 (503 views)
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do you have a source for that? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't find anything, off hand, that suggests any reason for the number of eagles that went to rescue Frodo and Sam.


Quote
'Twice you have borne me, Gwaihir my friend,' said Gandalf. 'Thrice shall pay for all, if you are willing. You will not find me a burden much greater than when you bore me from Zirak-zigil, where my old life burned away.'

'I would bear you,' answered Gwaihir, 'whither you will, even were you made of stone.'

'Then come, and let your brother go with us, and some other of your folk who is most swift! For we have need of speed greater than any wind, outmatching the wings of the Nazgl.'

'The North Wind blows, but we shall outfly it,' said Gwaihir. And he lifted up Gandalf and sped away south, and with him went Landroval, and Meneldor young and swift. And they passed over Udn and Gorgoroth and saw all the land in ruin and tumult beneath them, and before them Mount Doom blazing, pouring out its fire.


I checked Letters and couldn't find anything in there. I also couldn't find anything in HoMe.

As to the original question...
I hadn't thought of Gollum until a friend suggested it back in 2004 (after ROTK came out) and I think there's no reason not to consider it. I also like to think that it's left unspecified for the same reason lots of the story is vague or unspecified: Tolkien wants us to consider possibilities on our own rather than being delivered answers on a platter. :-)


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DanielLB
Captain


Dec 29 2012, 10:33pm

Post #8 of 18 (471 views)
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I thought I had read it in HoMe once. [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps I am mistaken. I'll have to check and get back to you Magpie.

Smile

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Magpie
Captain


Dec 29 2012, 10:57pm

Post #9 of 18 (416 views)
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thanks. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


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DanielLB
Captain


Dec 29 2012, 10:57pm

Post #10 of 18 (475 views)
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Here we are: [In reply to] Can't Post

Sauron Defeated: Part One: The End of the Third Age: I The Story of Frodo and Sam in Mordor (page 7 in my book).


Quote
Gandalf, of course, now knows that Frodo has succeeded and the Ring has perished. He sends Gwaihir the Eagle to see what is happening. Some of the eagles fall withered by flame.


Now, this is only in HoMe - can we assume this is the same reason why there were multiple eagles (despite no explicit statement in LOTR)? And also, it doesn't say there were x number of eagles, because y number of eagles are killed? Half proves and half disproves my point? Crazy

On a different note, and one I had forgotten about, Gandalf was also going to arrive on a White Eagle. That would've been spectacular.

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(This post was edited by DanielLB on Dec 29 2012, 11:01pm)


Magpie
Captain


Dec 29 2012, 11:09pm

Post #11 of 18 (454 views)
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thanks. I had looked in The End of the Third Age [In reply to] Can't Post

as to your question, I'd say 'no'. We can't assume.

For one thing, we can only rightly go by what is in the finished book. If it didn't survive the cuts for the final edit, there was a reason. I'd hate to be an author whose rough drafts were all held up as proof for any number of theories and assertions! The HoMe is meant, imo, to show how the thinking and writing style developed. Not as an encyclopedia of codified facts. (not that I think you are asserting any of this... I'm arguing a point, not a person.)

When I read the epilogue that Tolkien wrote, I immediately feel in love with it. Why wouldn't Tolkien include that in the book?! Well, imo, he was always pulling back from 'too much information' - trying to evoke more of a mythic feel where not all is known for whatever reason. And he was always, imo, pulling back from providing answers that kept people from thinking. As soon as a fact is provided, people latch onto it as ammunition in discussions where they can prove themselves right and someone else wrong. That's not much of a discussion, imo, and I think Tolkien enjoyed giving people room to wonder and question and postulate and change their thinking as they got to know the story better and live life a little more.

But one of my favorite songs is, "Let the Mystery Be" :-)

If the reason for three eagles was needed for the reader, I think we would have been given it. Tolkien didn't 'forget' important points. :-)

We aren't given it and I don't think we can take it from HoMe. Although, I do think we can let what we learn from HoMe inform us while we think about the question.


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DanielLB
Captain


Dec 29 2012, 11:31pm

Post #12 of 18 (432 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

Here:

Quote
When I read the epilogue that Tolkien wrote, I immediately feel in love with it. Why wouldn't Tolkien include that in the book?! Well, imo, he was always pulling back from 'too much information' - trying to evoke more of a mythic feel where not all is known for whatever reason.


And here:


Quote
We aren't given it and I don't think we can take it from HoMe. Although, I do think we can let what we learn from HoMe inform us while we think about the question.


Leaving the door open for interpretation (or mis-interpretation in some cases ...) is just one of the many wonders of Tolkien's work(s). It prevents his "universe" from becoming smaller.

Either explanation suits me, of course.

Smile

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squire
Quartermaster


Dec 30 2012, 12:14am

Post #13 of 18 (438 views)
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That's right [In reply to] Can't Post

Rough drafts aside (those flaming eagles in HoME were replaced by flaming Nazgul!), the text of the book is so clear as to be unquestionable: Gandalf asks for a ride to Mt. Doom, and asks for two additional eagles to pick up two surviving hobbits, which they do. Earlier there are hints that Gandalf is aware of Frodo's presence at the mountain, to explain why he asks Gwaihir to help him out in the first place.

The Jackson film changes this, for reasons that I don't believe have ever been explained. Plenty of fans here have argued that the "third eagle" was reserved for Gollum, since Gandalf's eagle both bears the wizard on its back and picks up Frodo with its feet. But I have always felt that Jackson was simply going for a kind of effect and chose to ignore Tolkien's writing for visual reasons, not moral ones.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Magpie
Captain


Dec 30 2012, 1:38am

Post #14 of 18 (522 views)
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I wrote this a long time ago... [In reply to] Can't Post

I was looking at "J.R.R. Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator" by Wayne G. Hammond (Editor), Christina Scull (Editor)

This comment struck me:


Quote
One seascape is particularly sensitive, and shows his understanding of perspective, defined by the careful placing of markers such as a boat, a jetty, and birds. The sand bar stretching into the water provides a firm foreground, while the curve of the shore carries the eye to the points of action in the view and to near and distant hills. The latter were always of interest to Tolkien, for they naturally introduce a sense of depth to a picture and raise the question, What lies beyond? His best paintings and drawings have this feature, some avenue of exit into another scene. He expressed the philosophy behind it many years later, in the words of Niggle, whose soul had reached a place of convalescence within one of his paintings made real:

'You could go on and on, and have a whole country in a garden, or in a picture (if you preferred to call it that). You could go on and on, but not perhaps for ever. There were the Mountains in the background. They did get nearer, very slowly. They did not seem to belong to the picture, or only as a link to something else, a glimpse through the trees of something different, a further stage: another picture.'

(pages 13, 14)


It seems to me that this is what he does with characters like Tom Bombadil, Beorn, or Ghn-buri-Ghn. He provides a glimpse to another picture. I think it makes the world of Middle-earth seem all that much more real. Any world that I could encompass in whole could not possibly be real.

------------------------------
That last sentence is essentially what you said, "It prevents his "universe" from becoming smaller."

I love Tolkien. *sigh* :-)


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Mooseboy018
Gunner


Dec 31 2012, 7:23am

Post #15 of 18 (424 views)
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I always thought the same thing. [In reply to] Can't Post

One of the times my friends and I watched all three movies in a row, I just randomly said "and one for Gollum..." when that scene came up. They were confused so I had to explain what I meant.


belfalas
Powder Monkey

Dec 31 2012, 11:15pm

Post #16 of 18 (412 views)
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Got it! [In reply to] Can't Post

Three eagles. Eagle #1 (with Gandalf on) picks up Frodo, eagle #2 picks up Sam.
Shortly after (a bit we don't see) eagle #2 drops Sam onto the back of eagle #3, then eagle #1 drops Frodo onto the back of eagle #2.
Thus our friends are all comfortable for the trip to Rivendell.


sauget.diblosio
Sailing Master

Mar 12 2013, 9:31am

Post #17 of 18 (152 views)
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I always assumed the third eagle was for Smeagol, [In reply to] Can't Post

and you can even see it pause and look for a third survivor. I always find that very touching-- such a beautiful little moment.


sauget.diblosio
Sailing Master

Mar 12 2013, 9:38am

Post #18 of 18 (185 views)
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Let the Mystery Be [In reply to] Can't Post

is one of my favorites as well. I especially love a version of it by 10.000 Maniacs performing it "unplugged" with David Byrne of Talking Heads. But the original is great, too.

 
 

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