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dernwyn
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Nov 26 2007, 12:24pm
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The Old Forest I: Introduction and Wake-Up Call
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Welcome to our study of Chapter 6! I’ll be providing some background information and offering leading questions, but please feel free to jump in with your own comments, questions, and observations as we trapse through the woods and encounter strange creatures.
This chapter has a comparatively boring history. It remained nearly unchanged from its first draft: basically, only the names of Hobbits were altered as those characters evolved, and details were added.
We also need not delve into the Old Forest’s future development. (Almost as scary as Bombadil, isn’t it?)
The chapter begins with Merry banging on the door to wake Frodo. It’s four-thirty, and he, Sam, and Pippin are already up - have been for a while, in fact, since Sam’s just about ready with breakfast and Merry is heading out to saddle the ponies.
It doesn’t seem like they could have been able to get a good night’s sleep, considering the events of the previous evening! How late do you think they headed to bed the night before? Where did they all sleep - was Frodo the only one to get a nice, soft bed? (Come to think of it, would Sam have had his own room at Crickhollow?)
Merry returns with the pack-pony; they load it and then all head across the fields to the stable. Is it strange that Crickhollow does not have a small stable of its own, considering how relatively isolated it is? How far away do you think the stable is, where their ponies are being kept, since they had to “cut across several fields” to get there? Who would it belong to, and wouldn’t they have had to be in on the conspiracy as well?
And what is a “spinney”?
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 26 2007, 1:46pm
Post #2 of 59
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The Old Forest Commercial Center. Where did you find that?
It doesn’t seem like they could have been able to get a good night’s sleep, considering the events of the previous evening!
They may not have had coffee, but the hobbits did have tea; nice, dark, breakfast tea with plenty of caffeine, I'm sure.
How late do you think they headed to bed the night before?
Not too much after their baths. I think they could have gotten five hours of sleep.
Where did they all sleep - was Frodo the only one to get a nice, soft bed? (Come to think of it, would Sam have had his own room at Crickhollow?)
I'm sure Sam had his own room, and I'm sure Frodo had at least one guest room, so they all got beds, although two of them may have had to share.
Is it strange that Crickhollow does not have a small stable of its own, considering how relatively isolated it is?
Crickhollow is not the name of Frodo's house, but of the town in which he has his house. I think walking is the norm among hobbits, so I don't find it strange that Frodo's house does not have a stable.
How far away do you think the stable is, where their ponies are being kept, since they had to “cut across several fields” to get there?
Several fields away? It could have been a half a mile or so.
Who would it belong to, and wouldn’t they have had to be in on the conspiracy as well?
Merry might have used a family stable or a friend's stable to help keep his plans quiet. His preparations could have caused talk, but it might not have been connected to Frodo. And as Merry often notes, Bucklanders have been known to take an overnight trip to Bree and back from time to time, as well as trips to Hobbiton and other parts of the Shire. So it probably would not have immediately led people to believe Merry and his friends were leaving for more than a few days.
And what is a “spinney”?
A copse. Yes, I did have to look it up.
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weaver
Gondolin
Nov 26 2007, 5:38pm
Post #3 of 59
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I'm glad Tolkien started this particular hobbit journey out early in the morning like this -- there's something special about making the effort to get up before dawn and prepare yourself before taking a trip.
It's an effective and deceptive kind of opening to the chapter, too -- it feels more like the hobbits are starting out on a vacation, than an adventure. Everything is planned, and scheduled and neatly prepared. Tolkien gives us no dark forebodings or worries or ominous weather to hint at what lies ahead, so it puts you, the reader, in the same mindset as the hobbits when they enter the Forest and things go much differently than expected!
Weaver
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 26 2007, 6:20pm
Post #4 of 59
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Merry and Pippin are cheerful.
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I think Frodo and Sam are less so, and Tolkien has given us plenty of dark forbodings in earlier chapters. Fatty also gives us plenty to worry about, if we take him at all seriously, and as it turns out we should.
But I never feared that the hobbits would truly come to harm. I just wondered how they could plausibly make it all the way to Rivendell with Black Riders pursuing them and no Gandalf to help them. And let me emphasize "plausibly." For me, the chief tension in LotR, until the Ring is unmade, is how Frodo can plausibly accomplish what has been set up as a seemingly-impossible task. There are all kinds of variations on this theme along the way, one seemingly-impossible step after another. Can Tolkien sustain plausibility? The tension is killing me!
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Nerdanel
Ossiriand
Nov 26 2007, 7:18pm
Post #5 of 59
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It doesn’t seem like they could have been able to get a good night’s sleep, considering the events of the previous evening! How late do you think they headed to bed the night before? Where did they all sleep - was Frodo the only one to get a nice, soft bed? (Come to think of it, would Sam have had his own room at Crickhollow?)
If Merry had the foresight to arrange 3 bathtubs I'm sure he had arranged beds as well. Since Crickhollow seems to be a sort of guest house for Brandy Hall, it probably consists of numerous bedrooms. It's supposed to be a retreat from the congestion of the Hall, but that doesn't mean it won't house a half-dozen, which would still be an escape from the entire clan.
I'm sure I couldn't have slept at all on the eve of an (unexpected) expedition into the Old Forest!
Merry returns with the pack-pony; they load it and then all head across the fields to the stable. Is it strange that Crickhollow does not have a small stable of its own, considering how relatively isolated it is? How far away do you think the stable is, where their ponies are being kept, since they had to “cut across several fields” to get there? Who would it belong to, and wouldn’t they have had to be in on the conspiracy as well?
I think it must be the general stables for Brandy Hall so it would house whatever ponies the Brandybucks and their visitors had. Crickhollow is isolated, but it is only a walk from the ferry which is right by Brandy Hall. Too much trouble for the stablehobbits to keep a separate stable there.
And what is a “spinney”? A grove of trees likely to shelter game. Probably where the lords of Buckland did their fox hunting.
(This post was edited by Nerdanel on Nov 26 2007, 7:18pm)
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 26 2007, 7:54pm
Post #6 of 59
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Ha! But isn't it Bath, Bed, and Beyond?
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I'm confused about Crickhollow. I always thought Crickhollow was a village, and Frodo's house had no name. Am I missing something? And I got the impression that Frodo's house was a few miles from Brandy Hall.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Nov 26 2007, 8:00pm
Post #7 of 59
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when searching Google Images...
That was a bit of a slip, calling Frodo's house "Crickhollow"! I know I'm so used to referring to it by its location, tending to call it that as a "nickname". The more proper name for it would probably be, "the former guest house at Crickhollow".
Looking back at how much sleep the Hobbits seemed to get when walking across the Shire, I'm wondering if about 5 hours a night could be considered a "normal" amount of sleep for Hobbits.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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weaver
Gondolin
Nov 26 2007, 8:06pm
Post #8 of 59
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either way, it sounds like a store at the Middle Earth Mall.../
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Weaver
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dernwyn
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Nov 26 2007, 8:22pm
Post #9 of 59
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Here's all the occurrances of Crickhollow in the text:
As a matter of fact with Merry’s help he had already chosen and bought a little house at Crickhollow in the country beyond Bucklebury.
After that, if Gandalf wanted him urgently, he would go to Crickhollow, and might even get there first.
'I am leaving the Shire as soon as ever I can—in fact I have made up my mind now not even to wait a day at Crickhollow, if it can be helped.'
It was some distance from the Brandywine to Frodo’s new house at Crickhollow. They passed Buck Hill and Brandy Hall on their left, and on the outskirts of Bucklebury struck the main road of Buckland that ran south from the Bridge. Half a mile northward along this they came to a lane opening on their right. This they followed for a couple of miles as it climbed up and down into the country...It had been built a long while before by the Brandybucks, for the use of guests, or members of the family that wished to escape from the crowded life of Brandy Hall for a time.
‘Trust me to arrange things better than that!’ said Merry. ‘We can’t begin life at Crickhollow with a quarrel over baths.'
'It is pretty generally known that you are coming back to live at Crickhollow.'
His task, according to the original plans of the conspirators, was to stay behind and deal with inquisitive folk, and to keep up as long as possible the pretence that Mr. Baggins was still living at Crickhollow.
'I wish we were all back at Crickhollow!’
The house at Crickhollow stood silent. Fatty Bolger opened the door cautiously and peered out.
All about Crickhollow there was the sound of horns blowing, and voices crying and feet running
'I came to the house at Crickhollow, and it was broken open and empty...'
But when these were foiled in Bree and at Crickhollow, they returned to their Captain with tidings,
They had not made any definite plans, but had vaguely thought of going down to Crickhollow together first, and resting there a bit.
In the meanwhile Bag End had been set in order, and Merry and Pippin came over from Crickhollow bringing back all the old furniture and gear, so that the old hole soon looked very much as it always had done.
Merry and Pippin lived together for some time at Crickhollow, and there was much coming and going between Buckland and Bag End. So it would seem that "Crickhollow" is the location, but has also been used to refer specifically to the house.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Doriath
Nov 26 2007, 8:35pm
Post #10 of 59
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It's on the edge of the "old-growth" Cook Forest over in the western half of PA.
I still get a kick out of looking back at this picture:
and wonder who bought it. I kinda wish Dad had included the 'For Sale' sign in the frame.
=)
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 26 2007, 8:36pm
Post #11 of 59
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I read the same quotes you did, and concluded that the house is not referred to as Crickhollow, but as the house at Crickhollow. Where they referred to Crickhollow, then, I believe they were referring to the location of the house.
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 26 2007, 8:57pm
Post #12 of 59
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Or the Old Forest Commercial Center./
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 26 2007, 10:13pm
Post #13 of 59
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I love all of the various options that can happen to your Fellowship that wind up delaying you. I almost would like to combine this with MECCG!
How big is Crickhollow?
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Nov 26 2007, 10:19pm
Post #14 of 59
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"No vacancy"?
LOL! Sounds like Merry and Pippin are still living there - and have gone into the pampering business! Not bad, for starting out with three tubs!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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dernwyn
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Nov 26 2007, 10:32pm
Post #15 of 59
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which do not refer to the "house at", are ambiguous, since instead of "in Crickhollow", which one would associate with being in a town, the word "at" is used: "back to live at Crickhollow", "still living at Crickhollow", "back at Crickhollow", "living together for some time at Crickhollow".
Substitute, say, "Oxford" for "Crickhollow" in the sentences, and I think the problem will be clearer!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 26 2007, 11:26pm
Post #16 of 59
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the fact that Frodo's house is not in Crickhollow, but just near it. Therefore his house is "at" Crickhollow, not "in" Crickhollow. But I'll grant you that some of the phrases are ambiguous.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 27 2007, 5:39am
Post #17 of 59
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"in" Bamfurlong, or "at" Bamfurlong? The use of "at" for Crickhollow makes it clear that Crickhollow is not a village, as had been suggested above, but which preposition does Tolkien use for Bag End?
I've just checked Tolkien's "Nomenclature of The Lord of the Rings", as republished in The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion, where he refers to Crickhollow as a "Place-name in Buckland" intended to be read as "composed of an obsolete element + the known word hollow", the latter part meaning "a small depression in the ground".
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 27 2007, 8:17am
Post #18 of 59
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I'd say Crickhollow is a location
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but not a village. The name probably refers to the shape of that particular bit of land. Although your quote says the first part is an "obsolete element", I wonder if it's the old version of "creek" which in England refers to a backwater (as opposed to a stream or brook as it does in America). A hidden backwater is what the name seems to imply, and I imagine the name having been given to the land itself, not to a settlement. A house built there wouldn't necessarily take the name of the place (it would just be "the house at Crickhollow"), but since it's the only habitation there, to say you live "at Crickhollow" would be quite unambiguous.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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a.s.
Doriath
Nov 27 2007, 12:07pm
Post #19 of 59
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in LOTR Reader's Guide note further (after citing Nomenclature as you did):
In his notes for the Dutch translator Tolkien calls crick 'another of the "Celtic" elements in Buckland and East-farthing names', thus probably from British cruc 'a hill' or Old Welsh *creic 'rock, cliff'. In Book 1, Chapter 5, when Frodo and his companions approach Crickhollow they follow a lane 'for a couple of miles as it climbed up and down into the country'.
[[I don't remember how to make accents above vowels, there should be one over the 'u' in the word 'cruc' above/a.s.]]
So we have hills and valleys (cruc and hollow).
I think it's pretty clear that Crickhollow refers to the geographical place, but sometimes it seems to refer to Frodo's house there. We all do sort of the same thing in our primary world when, for instance, we talk to our family members about "remember the time we were at Elm Street" when we mean "at the house on Elm Street". Or use the name of the subdivision where our house was located, instead of our address ("that didn't happen in 1967!! It happened at Elmwood Acres!!").
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 27 2007, 3:31pm
Post #20 of 59
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Bamfurlong does not appear on the map, nor does Farmer Maggot's house, but Crickhollow does. Does that mean that there is a town called Crickhollow, even if Frodo's house is not located in the town?
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Doriath
Nov 27 2007, 4:28pm
Post #21 of 59
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more Americans in my neck of the woods called it creek.
I was the annoying child of six or seven years who could hear "crick" mentioned from down a hall and through closed doors, and refuse to let it pass. "It's not crick! It's CREEK!"
Obsolete? Not here. No mere school teacher is going to remove *that* one from our inherited word hoard any time soon.
Yes, I've learned to live with it. =)
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a.s.
Doriath
Nov 27 2007, 6:05pm
Post #22 of 59
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"crick" comes from "cruc"="hill", see below //
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"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 27 2007, 6:25pm
Post #23 of 59
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Did I miss something?
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 27 2007, 8:16pm
Post #24 of 59
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On the map, "The Yale" is indicated by a single dot in the Eastfarthing, but I believe that Hammond and Scull indicate that it's actually meant to be an area (someone with their LotR companion to hand should find that in their notes on the maps). Other than "The Yale" and "Crickhollow", I don't see any locations marked by a single dot: villages seemed to be marked by a collection of dots.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 27 2007, 8:27pm
Post #25 of 59
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I did see your post, but I'd already made my own uneducated guess, which turned out to be wrong! 'Creek' seems to be of Germanic origin, so if Tolkien says this name is of Celtic origin, my guess couldn't be right. It looks as if Hammond & Scull must be a great resource to have.
I still think the name implies that the place is called after the topography, and that it might have received that name irrespective of whether there's a settlement there.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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