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Nerdanel
Ossiriand
Nov 20 2007, 9:50pm
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Chapter 5: A Conspiracy Unmasked II
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Merry pushed away from the landing-stage with a pole and the ferry-boat moved slowly across the Brandywine, which flowed slow and broad beneath them. There is no mention of a cable or rope connected to this ferry, so the only means of getting across the river and not downstream with the current is Merry and his pole.
Granted that the Brandywine flows slowly, isn't this still a lot of work? If the Bucklanders found a ferry useful why didn't they equip it with a cable or, at least, more than one pole?
While looking back across the river "as if to take farewell of the Shire" (as if?) Sam sees what looks like a "dark bundle left behind" on the far stage, swaying, crouching and crawling. The hobbits hurry up the steep bank on the Buckland side of the river, and Frodo tells Merry that the bundle is "something that has been following us."
'Thank goodness you don't keep any boats on the west-bank!' said Frodo. 'Can horses cross the river?'
'They can go twenty miles north to Brandywine Bridge--or they might swim,' answered Merry.
The size of the Black Riders seems very uncertain in this part of the book. I get an impression that they conserve the energy needed to give shape to their clothing for when they need it--the one stooping over Ham Gamgee was described as "tall" but otherwise they seem very low to the ground, or crouching atop their horses.
Do the Riders change shape? Are they, as Penthe suggested, weighed down by the "hope and bonhomie" of the Shire? They certainly don't give this impression in the FotR movie! Can you remember what you thought of the Riders in the Shire before you saw Jackson's movie?
Why are no boats kept on the west-bank of the river? Why was there one waiting for the hobbits? What does one do if all the boats are on the wrong side when one wants to cross?
Earlier in the chapter we learn that the Hay at the edge of the Old Forest runs from the Brandywine Bridge to the south end of Buckland and is 20 miles long. Now it is 20 miles from Brandy Hall to the Brandywine Bridge. Are we at the far south end of Buckland? No. In earlier drafts the Hay was 40 miles long, according to Christopher Tolkien. When the length of the Hay was shortened to 20 miles, JRRT apparently forgot to adjust the location of the ferry.
This has been a long day for Sam, Frodo and Pippin. Frodo estimated that the distance from Woodhall to Bucklebury ferry was 18 miles as the crow flies, but the route they ultimately took must have been much longer. Now they have another 2-3 miles to walk from the ferry to Crickhollow!
How long does it take you to walk 20 miles? How many meals would you require along the way?
Crickhollow, when they finally get there, is described as having a turf roof, among other features that make it "as much like a hobbit hole as possible." Turf roofs are very in, now, particularly in Europe, and provide environmental benefits such as reduced ambient temperatures (and thus reduced air-conditioning use), improved air and water quality, less rainwater runoff, reduced noise pollution, and the creation of wildlife habitat. You can even buy roofing tiles pre-planted with grass. Traditional turf roofs are very heavy; Crickhollow would have to have been very solidly built.
The door to Crickhollow is opened by Fatty Bolger. A friendly light streamed out. They slipped in quickly and shut themselves and the light inside. Inside, the house has been arranged to look as much like Bag End as possible.
Picking up another point that Penthe made (can you tell I'm a big Penthe fan?) here is another poignant reminder that Frodo's return to Buckland offers only the illusion of security, and that despite appearances, he has no home.
Ask and answer your own question here.
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 20 2007, 10:43pm
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I think the ferry functions like a drawbridge.
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Granted that the Brandywine flows slowly, isn't this still a lot of work? If the Bucklanders found a ferry useful why didn't they equip it with a cabel or, at least, more than one pole?
Why are no boats kept on the west-bank of the river? Why was there one waiting for the hobbits? What does one do if all the boats are on the wrong side when one wants to cross?
It seems to me that the Bucklanders operate this ferry for the benefit and protection of Bucklanders. They don't want a line stretching across the river, and they don't want boats kept on the other side, where intruders could use them to cross into Buckland. They have a wide river on one side, a protective hedge on the other, and gates at the north and south ends of their little land. They keep their doors locked after dark. In The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, they fire arrows at Bombadil when he sails down the Withywindle. As we will later learn, they also have an alarm they can raise if intruders do get in. They live near danger, they are very protective of their land, and the ferry is part of that protection.
If one is on the wrong side when one wants to cross, during the day one signals to the other side, and during the night one finds a place to sleep until morning.
Do the Riders change shape? Are they, as Penthe suggested, weighed down by the "hope and bonhomie" of the Shire? They certainly don't give this impression in the FotR movie! Can you remember what you thought of the Riders in the Shire before you saw Jackson's movie?
I don't think they change shape, but because they are blind and use other senses, they may seem to sniff along the ground like dogs, or crouch low over their prey. Then they may seem quite large when they raise themselves to their full height, let alone when they mount horses or fell beasts. They may also seem much larger when they are looming over you than when you see them from afar, sniffing the ground.
I thought that visually the movie did a good job with the Nazgul, but the movie could not convey the terror the Nazgul instilled in others, and the Nazgul seemed a little stiff, perhaps because of the cumbersome suits. I'm not sure the people in those suits were capable of crouching close to the ground.
How long does it take you to walk 20 miles? How many meals would you require along the way?
Probably 10 hours, including breaks for meals. But Farmer Maggot drove them from his house to the ferry, so I'm not sure they walked more than 18 miles to Farmer Maggot's house, and they might have walked less. And even if the hobbits were used to comfort, they were also used to walking much more than we are. In the days before cars it was not uncommon for people to walk long distances at a brisk clip.
Ask and answer your own question here.
Q. Why is the mist only on the west side of the river here, and on the east side of the river the following morning?
A. Because this isn't just mist, but a mist sent by Unseen Powers to protect the hobbits, like the mist sent to help Eorl the Young when he passed near Dol Guldur on his ride south to save Gondor. They needed protection on the west side of the river tonight, and will need protection on the east side of the river tomorrow morning.
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Nerdanel
Ossiriand
Nov 21 2007, 12:05am
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but why would the Bucklanders feel threatened from the Shire side? Tying up the ferry does not protect them from outsiders coming up or down the river, just from the hobbits of the Shire (and the odd Black Rider, but who could have foreseen that?).
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 21 2007, 12:43am
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The Black Rider was not the first or last intruder into the Shire.
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Farmer Maggot tells us as much, and keeps vicious guard dogs for a reason.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 21 2007, 2:08am
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That, Merry, is our Adventure!
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Granted that the Brandywine flows slowly, isn't this still a lot of work? If the Bucklanders found a ferry useful why didn't they equip it with a cable or, at least, more than one pole?
I always had envisioned a cable attachment, actually. The alternative would be rowing upstream, and rowing a large ferry is not something Merry could reasonably do. I imagine that Tolkien thought that the cable was implied because of the fact that it is a ferry.
Do the Riders change shape? Are they, as Penthe suggested, weighed down by the "hope and bonhomie" of the Shire? They certainly don't give this impression in the FotR movie! Can you remember what you thought of the Riders in the Shire before you saw Jackson's movie?
In an earlier version, Merry asks "what is that?", to which Bingo (Frodo) replies "our Adventure!". I liked this somewhat better than the ominous, but vague"something that has been following us".
Do the Riders change shape? I think that is a very provocative question, or at least something I've never before considered. My vision of them compared to Jackson's is not far off, although they're not in armor in my vision, which means that they aren't rattling and clanking as they move. They're more like ghosts - which, of course, they are.
Why are no boats kept on the west-bank of the river? Why was there one waiting for the hobbits? What does one do if all the boats are on the wrong side when one wants to cross?
If they have a cable like I think they must, they might be able to draw one back to their own side of the river. Alternatively, Tolkien might be putting in another plug about Providence.
How long does it take you to walk 20 miles? How many meals would you require along the way?
About four hours, five if I'm walking on hilly terrain (more on really rugged terrain, such as mountains). No, that does not include meals. But then, I walk like an Elf (or a Ranger) - long, fast stride.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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a.s.
Doriath
Nov 21 2007, 3:04am
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I never stop to think about stuff like this
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This is one reason I enjoy the RR discussions so much. I have never stopped to think about how the ferry worked.
Just because there is a pole that Merry uses to push off, does that rule out some kind of overhead cable system? Is the river extremely wide at this point? Because there are some old ferries that operated by current only (no cable), assisted by the punter. Here is one example.
Also, if there is a "ferry operator", so to speak, during the daytime hours and two boats, this would explain how Merry was confident there would be a boat on his side of the water. Because the operator would have taken one of the boats back across, and left the other boat on this shore.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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a.s.
Doriath
Nov 21 2007, 3:18am
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oops, there might be (probably is) a cable for that ferry
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I got information from another web site, then linked to one that had a picture. Now I'm not sure if there is or is not a cable involved in this ferry system, but I assume there is. Too late to edit. Sorry.
Maybe someone has used it and knows!
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 21 2007, 3:46am
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Yes, five miles an hour is a fast walk.
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Is that with a pack?
And of course the hobbits have a much shorter stride.
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Morwen
Nargothrond
Nov 21 2007, 4:37am
Post #9 of 30
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Granted that the Brandywine flows slowly, isn't this still a lot of work? If the Bucklanders found a ferry useful why didn't they equip it with a cable or, at least, more than one pole?
I agree with others that Tolkien may simply not have mentioned a cable.
Do the Riders change shape? Are they, as Penthe suggested, weighed down by the "hope and bonhomie" of the Shire? They certainly don't give this impression in the FotR movie! Can you remember what you thought of the Riders in the Shire before you saw Jackson's movie?
I've wondered about this. After the Black Riders were unhorsed in Elrond's flood, Gandalf describes them as "empty and shapeless." Does this mean they can take any shape they want or that they have no shape at all? It seems like there has to be something inside those black robes, but if they could take any shape, why didn't they sprout wings? Why did they need the winged steeds?
Why are no boats kept on the west-bank of the river? Why was there one waiting for the hobbits? What does one do if all the boats are on the wrong side when one wants to cross?
I'll go along with a.s.'s idea of a daytime ferryman. Bucklanders locked their doors after dark, so they probably didn't go out much at night. If the ferry was needed at night, I guess a traveler had to hope it would be on his side of the river, or plan on waiting until morning. If the ferryman came to work in the morning and found the boat on the opposite side, I suppose he could signal someone to bring it back over.
My question is; how did Farmer Maggot know the boat would be on his side of the river? It would have been on the wrong side if Merry hadn't rowed it across when he came to search for his friends. The hobbits would have had a problem if Farmer Maggot had driven them to the Ferry, the Black Rider apparently minutes behind them, and there had been no boat.
How long does it take you to walk 20 miles? How many meals would you require along the way?
How much of a hurry am I in, what is the terrain like, and how many inns are along the way? One way or the other, I'm sure it would use up the entire day, and by the time I approached my destination I'd be thinking, like Frodo, "Why didn't I drive?"
Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you; you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 21 2007, 5:41am
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No, that's just a walk with no significant pack. The Hobbits could never go that fast, but the Riders can - probably a lot faster, in fact. If I'm backpacking in the mountains I tend to slow down to two to three miles per hour, and on really difficult terrain (e.g. talus, skree) this takes a lot longer, and even longer if I'm being really careful (e.g. steep snow). It makes me wonder how Aragorn, who probably walks like I do, manages not to lose the Hobbits when going through the wilderness, however!
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 21 2007, 11:49am
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Most ferries are not cable ferries. For example, Charon ferried souls
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across the River Styx into the underworld without a cable. The Brandywine is described as slow moving. And as you note, if there had been a cable, the Rider could have pulled the boat back across the river. Also, Frodo says it is a good thing there aren't any boats on the other side of the river. Why would there be multiple boats if it is a cable ferry?
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 21 2007, 11:51am
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I thought the hobbits planned to meet Merry at the ferry.
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My question is; how did Farmer Maggot know the boat would be on his side of the river?
He didn't, but Frodo did, because he had planned to meet Merry there.
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a.s.
Doriath
Nov 21 2007, 12:41pm
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1) Google: Tolkien ferry Ribble 2) illustration
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1) Try this Google search and you will see a lot of links about a possible geographical inspiration for this part of LOTR. There was a ferry at Hacking in operation while Tolkien was a frequent visitor to the area while his sons attended Stoneyhurst school. For example:
a walk through Middle Earth was attempted, comparing the map of Middle Earth which has Hobbiton, the River Shirebourne and the River Brandywine and the ferry that takes you across to the Old Forest with the Ribble Valley Map showing Hurst Green and the rivers Ribble and Hodder; including the ferry that hadn't run for years....He would amble along here to the spot where a passenger ferry used to cross the Ribble, at the point where it is joined by two other rivers - the Calder and the Hodder. The ferry hasn't run since the 1950's, but it was here in Tolkien's day and he used it as the inspiration for the Buckleby Ferry, in which Frodo and friends take to leave the Shire and enter the Old Forest.
I don't know how accurate these conjectures are, but I sure would like to know more about how that passenger ferry on the river Ribble operated!!
2) There is a rough illustration of the ferry (illustration #146 in Artist and Illustrator, page 154) showing the bollards and a far-away ferry. I can't see any cables in the picture, FWIW. The text says the boat in the picture was "propelled with a pole", though I can't see the pole.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 21 2007, 12:42pm
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We've seen this protective ferry device before in The Hobbit.
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Remember how the elves kept a boat tied up on their side of the magical stream in the middle of Mirkwood?
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 21 2007, 7:23pm
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I've found a photo of the Ribble ferry
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This is just a few miles from where I was born, and apparently this ferry was running until I was 7 years old, but I'm afraid I have no recollection of it.
As for the similarities between this area and descriptions of the Shire, my husband says exactly this every time we visit! There's one particular spot (Kemple End, which I always think of as the Woody End) from where you have a wonderful view down a green valley with little clusters of farms and small villages. The last time we were there, and my husband made his remark about how the view reminded him of the Shire, a man standing nearby said, "Yes, and that's the Brandywine down there!"
Whether or not there's any substance to the idea that this bit of Lancashire has any connection to the Shire, it's well attested that Tolkien stayed here while he was witing LotR - he signed the guest book of Stonyhurst College many times.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 21 2007, 7:44pm
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Thanks! I don't see a cable on that ferry, do you?//
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a.s.
Doriath
Nov 21 2007, 10:51pm
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nice!! looks like a punter-assisted current ferry
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Geez. I've been reading too many web sites about ferries if I can say that with a straight face.
Like Curious, I don't see any cabling of any kind. It looks like the ferryman is standing in the front of the boat using a long pole that can go on either side of the boat like a big oar, to guide the boat and keep it in the current? I'm just kidding when I say I now know much about ferries, but that picture sure looks like what is being described in this chapter!!
I'm so glad someone here has seen the part of England described on all those web sites as the inspiration for this part of the Shire, and confirms that it's at least plausible.
In Scull and Hammond's "Tolkien Reader's Companion", under the entry for "England" (page 244 in my edition) it says that while JRR was visiting Christopher at Stoneyhurst: "In 1946, when he stayed at New Lodge, Stoneyhurst, he filled in his nationality in the guest book as 'English', breaking a line of dittos under the topmost entry 'British'". How typically Tolkien, somehow.
And every time I think I know "a lot" about Tolkien and the writing of LOTR, I find out something new.
I love the RR!!
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 22 2007, 1:58pm
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I don't think there would be one anyway - it's too intrusive and disfiguring of the river. I don't think the local landowner would have gone for that. And wouldn't it stop boats from going up and down the river?
On the other hand, I don't think you could get ponies onto this ferry!
On the whole, I think we could do worse than look at the ferry in Jackson's film, since I imagine the designers probably did far more research than we have. I haven't heard any specific comments on the movie's Bucklebury ferry, but in general everything was closely modelled on real, historical artefacts, and I don't see why the ferry would be any different (unless there was a dramatic reason for the change). In fact, the movie ferry looks like you could lead ponies onto it, although the movie-hobbits don't have ponies. The lack of a guard-rail might be for dramatic reasons though, to allow Frodo to leap onboard at the last second.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Nov 22 2007, 2:00pm)
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Kethry
Menegroth
Nov 25 2007, 4:36am
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Do the Riders change shape? Are they, as Penthe suggested, weighed down by the "hope and bonhomie" of the Shire? They certainly don't give this impression in the FotR movie! Can you remember what you thought of the Riders in the Shire before you saw Jackson's movie?
I don’t think that we really know enough about the Riders to really know. At least, not if you’re reading for the first time. Quite honestly, I don’t recall ever really thinking about them. I do remember a discussion, or actually reading somewhere in HoME that their power diminishes the further away from Mordor they are, or when they separate. (Or maybe I think that I remember that.) I do like the idea that the Riders are weighed down by the normalcy and hope of the Shire.
Why are no boats kept on the west-bank of the river? Why was there one waiting for the hobbits? What does one do if all the boats are on the wrong side when one wants to cross?
I think that the residents of Buckland would be more likely to want to cross the river. The residents on the West side of the river wouldn’t really have a reason to cross, so there wouldn’t be a need for boats on that side. And I guess the ferry was there only because Merry brought it over. Maybe in the daytime there’s someone stationed there to bring it over if it was needed.
How long does it take you to walk 20 miles? How many meals would you require along the way?
Well, I’ve walked/run 2.5 miles in about 45 minutes. And I’ve walked 1 mile in 16 minutes. So, with a steady pace, 5ish hrs walking time, with a break and a rest with a meal or a snack every hour, for an hour would be 4 hours would make roughly a 9-10 hour day. Though I certainly couldn't keep that pace all day. I wouldn't really want to try to walk 20 miles in a day. And really, they’d be used to walking everywhere, so it wouldn’t be that difficult of a task to go 20 miles in a day. And with that “shortcut” they wouldn’t have made such good time, but it still didn’t exhaust them.
"Any kind of plan where you lose your hat... is a bad plan."
'But it does not seem that I can trust anyone,' said Frodo.
Sam looked at him unhappily. 'It all depends on what you want,' put in Merry. 'You can trust us to stick to you through thick and thin - to the bitter end. And you can trust us to keep any secret of yours - closer than you keep it yourself. But you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone, and go off without a word. We are your friends, Frodo.'
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 26 2007, 4:53pm
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Is there a gate at the south end of Buckland?
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They have a wide river on one side, a protective hedge on the other, and gates at the north and south ends of their little land.
Just some tangetial musing based on your comments. There probably is a gate at Buckland's south end, but it doesn't lead directly out of the Shire. According to Tolkien's notes for "Bombadil Goes Boating", at the southernmost tip of Buckland, where the High Hay meets the Brandywine River, is a village named Breredon. Here there must be a gate, because on the other side of the Hay, the hobbits have a hythe (haven) named Grindwall, where the Withywindle River joins the Brandywine. (Grindwall is protected from the Forest to the east by a fence.) But anyone passing through the gate can only travel further by boat.
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 26 2007, 5:54pm
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Where did you find Tolkien's notes
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for "Bombadil Goes Boating"? I was basing my statement on the poem itself, which may not specifically mention a gate, but IIRC does mention the hythe, as well as the unfriendly archers guarding it.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 26 2007, 7:14pm
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In squire's "Shortcut to Mushrooms" discussion from 2005.
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See the bottom of this page -- the notes derive from Tolkien's mock-scholarly introduction to The Adventures of Tom Bombadil collection.
It's neat to look back at that discussion, and note the different directions that Saelind's leadership took our recent treatment of the same chapter. Also to look back at Draupne's version in September 2002. However, I would generally recommend that discussion leaders not revisit previous studies of their chapters until after they're done. Too intimidating!* And needlessly so, as different discussions are just that, different, not better or worse. And they live in the responses and the conversation, not in the root posts.
*As I know from experience: having tackled "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm" with Reverend's legendary effort looming in my mind. It was a struggle, searching for approaches he hadn't tried in his 34 threads (most ever!) on that chapter. Things turned out OK, but I probably would have done just as well to chart a course in ignorance of the earlier work.
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 26 2007, 7:42pm
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Maybe I had a vague recollection
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of that discussion. Or maybe not. I just know that I was aware of the encounter between Bombadil and the hobbits where the Withywindle meets the Brandywine.
While I enjoy your reminders of previous discussions, and I'm very grateful for them, I rarely look back at them. Maybe it's because my computer is so slow, or my ability to search is not so great. But I also think I prefer to consider each conversation anew, each time it arises, just as I do when people raise the subject of Bombadil. Often I discover my thinking has changed, or perhaps that it should change. I like to compare the old to the new after the new discussion has passed, as you suggest, rather than during the discussion.
While I enjoyed the pace of the discussion back in the "old days," I don't know how I kept up. The slower pace has its advantages, even if I do sometimes find myself tapping my fingers, waiting for the next post. By the way, you do know that Reverend posted 34 times to beat my record of 33, don't you? I'm afraid I set that doubtful precedent in Book I, Chapter 2, although my last posts overlapped with the next discussion and may not have been properly labled.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 29 2007, 12:33am
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Here and in "The Passage of the Marshes", Sam speaks with a "hoarse whisper". It probably doesn't mean anything.
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Nov. 26-Dec. 2 for "The Old Forest".
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