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CuriousG
Gondor
Dec 31 2012, 3:38am
Views: 1460
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The Silmarillion discussion: Ainulindale
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Can't Post
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“There was Eru, the One,…” What a bold way to start off a creation story.
Tolkien deliberately emulates the wording of Genesis (count all the “and’s” for fun), but it’s a big departure that Creation came from a Great Music. Googling various creation myths, I didn’t come up with any that were based on music, so Tolkien wins the innovation prize. Or prove me wrong: does anyone know of a creation story based on music? (I read one argument that Genesis was meant to be sung or chanted, but that’s not the same.)
Eru is given no beginning, but the Ainur have one and come from his thought. Any ideas on why he didn’t sing them into existence?
It’s not simple music: “Sing! A world!” Instead it’s a dramatic story of competing themes, where original beauty and harmony clash with vanity and discord in a near-war. Not only does the Great Music create, it spells out the fate of the world and its peoples. On first read, I was confused by the complexity of all this, but now I enjoy it. What’s your first reaction?
The Music of the Ainur lives on in water, especially the Sea, and the Ainur considered water better than earth and air. Yet Ulmo isn’t the chief of the Valar. Why do you suppose Tolkien chose Manwe as the king of the world over Ulmo? Was he bowing to the influence of Norse and Greek myths that had the thunder/sky god as First God?
“Many of the Children of Iluvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen.” >> Do waterfalls and ocean waves sound musical to you, or is their sound their own and unrelated to music?
Melkor’s sins: secrecy, pride, lust for power. What would you add?
What this chapter tells us about Tolkien that we see in all his Middle-earth works:
- He loves music.
- He loves water, especially the sea.
- The greatest people can become the most evil. (Melkor here, Feanor later.)
- The desire to subdue others to your will is evil.
What else would you add?
Bonus question: if you wrote a creation story, what would you base it on? Cooking? Painting? Manufacturing? Computers? Laughter?
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Time
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The Silmarillion discussion: Ainulindale
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CuriousG
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Dec 31 2012, 3:38am
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Thanks for kicking this off, CuriousG!
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Ardamírë
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Dec 31 2012, 4:14am
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Why not sing the Aunur?
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noWizardme
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Dec 31 2012, 10:22pm
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Tolkien seemed to have the same sentiments about evil
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CuriousG
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Dec 31 2012, 10:31pm
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Where it starts...
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noWizardme
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Dec 31 2012, 10:53pm
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Nice--thought to music to sound
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CuriousG
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Jan 1, 10:30pm
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Ulmo
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Ardamírë
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Jan 2, 5:15pm
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Sorry, I wasn't clear
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CuriousG
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Jan 2, 6:37pm
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Well, no...
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Ardamírë
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Jan 4, 12:41am
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Regarding Ulmo
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Cyberia
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Jan 2, 8:09am
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I actually don't see the similarity
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Ardamírë
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Jan 2, 5:19pm
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saying Eä
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Oiotári
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Jan 12, 9:32pm
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Hark to those herald angels singing
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squire
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Jan 1, 2:35pm
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Excellent point
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CuriousG
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Jan 1, 10:04pm
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Stop me if you've heard this one, O Muse
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squire
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Jan 2, 7:19pm
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Excellent insight--many thanks! //
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CuriousG
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Jan 2, 8:14pm
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Another sung creation- the Kalevala
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noWizardme
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Jan 3, 4:54pm
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Creation is song
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The Gardener
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Jan 5, 6:00am
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Where's Eve? Or Varda?
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CuriousG
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Jan 5, 7:40am
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No women were mentioned by name
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Oiotári
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Jan 12, 8:45pm
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Worship of Creation is song
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squire
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Jan 5, 2:49pm
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Should have read the brochure?
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noWizardme
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Jan 1, 7:14pm
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It does strike me every time I read it
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CuriousG
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Jan 1, 9:25pm
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If we read that passage, perhaps it is not so clear
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Oiotári
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Jan 12, 9:02pm
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I wonder about Tulkas leaving
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CuriousG
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Jan 16, 3:30am
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Modern myth from modern things
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Mim
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Jan 1, 7:42pm
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Thanks--great points, especially
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CuriousG
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Jan 1, 9:21pm
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myth and music (and Manwe)
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telain
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Jan 8, 6:11pm
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I wonder if the creation myth of Arda was analogous to
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Plurmo
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Jan 2, 3:26am
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He was not far off of reality either............
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Eruonen
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Jan 4, 9:31pm
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Tolkien's Representation of the Trinity
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KingTurgon
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Jan 4, 9:45pm
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Jesus is Jesus
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Ardamírë
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Jan 4, 10:12pm
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For JRRT the events of ME were prior to
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Eruonen
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Jan 4, 11:18pm
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Gandalf, in some ways
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CuriousG
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Jan 4, 11:32pm
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Allegories - Contrast to The Lord of the Rings?
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noWizardme
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Jan 5, 9:03am
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Earlier post
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KingTurgon
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Jan 7, 8:25pm
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Jesus
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Aragalen the Green
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Jan 6, 5:56pm
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Interesting idea- glad you posted it //
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noWizardme
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Jan 6, 7:09pm
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I know this isn't really a religion thread, but...
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Ardamírë
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Jan 6, 8:02pm
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Maybe "reluctant" isn't quite right,
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Aragalen the Green
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Jan 6, 8:41pm
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Ah that passage
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Ardamírë
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Jan 6, 11:20pm
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Everyone's welcome to join in
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CuriousG
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Jan 6, 9:14pm
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Thank you, and my apologies to Ardamire
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Aragalen the Green
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Jan 6, 10:19pm
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Without wishing to curtail this discussion- what are our plans for the next chapter?
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noWizardme
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Jan 6, 10:15pm
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We can take turns. Whoever wants to do the Valaquenta, just say so, and post when you'd like.//
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CuriousG
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Jan 6, 10:28pm
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Didn't get my edit inserted in time. More info:
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CuriousG
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Jan 6, 10:51pm
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I will take the Reading Room to Valaquenta, though I... do not know the way. :)
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noWizardme
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Jan 7, 1:02pm
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A Beautiful Creation
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Aragalen the Green
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Jan 6, 10:24pm
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I looove this "chapter"
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Oiotári
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Jan 11, 6:20am
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Good point about no one to sing to
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CuriousG
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Jan 16, 3:28am
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Late for the party
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sador
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Jan 16, 10:52am
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