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Glum
Nevrast
Dec 30 2012, 1:52pm
Post #1 of 34
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Death of the Great Goblin and the falling bridge...
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I was wondering... did anyone actually like this scene? For me, it was the weakest moment of the whole movie and because of that, I just can't consider AUJ an excelent movie.
I didn't like the way Gangalf killed GG - it seemed ridiculously easy. And Goblin's last words were just stupid, I don't know whether the fimmakers tried to be funny here but if they did, they failed. Evel Legolas's "A diversion" is better
And regarding the falling bridge - this was completely out of place! It reminded me of stupid action movies where the main hero doesn't even get hurt in clearly mortal situations... What I only liked was the end when GG unexpectedly fell from above 
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Arannir
Doriath
Dec 30 2012, 3:00pm
Post #3 of 34
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I also found the last words of the Great Goblin to be kind of a waste... although after seeing the movie in German first and then in English I was releaved to see the original words are not as goofy as the German version ;)
But the bridge falling, I liked. The whole Goblin Town sequence decided to go with a fantasy-hero-battle that was on-purpose over-the-top. They simply kicked ass in that scene and the movie did not fake any realism and I think that was a good choice, especially because it was inter-cut with the best scene of maybe all Middle-earth movies thus far - the Riddles.
Overall imho very nice style and pacing decisions here.
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Lost Hobbit
Ossiriand
Dec 30 2012, 3:03pm
Post #4 of 34
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I have also noticed that, but tried to find the reasons. After all we've been given an ability to analyze these issues. And I think I've found it. Cinematically the ease of killing the Great Goblin was the right decision. Why? An answer - he simply wasn't the main threat, they have given this role to Azog appearing after they have left the mountains. So on the screen it felt like the threat was behind (in the sequence where Bilbo reappears and discusses home). After passing those long tunnels full with the other goblins and defeating them, the Great One has turned into minor issue. Now just imagine how it could've looked otherwise - everywhere they went they killed everything. Starting from the forest they killed the wargs, then - orcs and wargs in the fields, later - goblins etc. And just imagine - then Gandalf kills Goblin King and it takes longer time, let's say 3-4 screentime minutes...and then we rush into the other enemy. It simply wouldn't work. To balance it, one of them has been given a minor importance. Too many long fights would've destroyed it. But, of course, if there was no Azog, it would be correct to focus on Goblin King. What else...Size doesn't mean everything. He was just a foolish creature, depended on other goblins...These are stereotypes - typical masters, which rely on their servants, not able to do anything.
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Dec 30 2012, 3:06pm
Post #5 of 34
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I also found the last words of the Great Goblin to be kind of a waste... although after seeing the movie in German first and then in English I was releaved to see the original words are not as goofy as the German version ;) and pacing decisions here
What was the German translation?
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EyeRock
Nevrast
Dec 30 2012, 3:15pm
Post #6 of 34
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I thought it was very funny actually
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Indeed, Humphries delivery of this character was an immense joy to witness, seeing him from a confident and sarcastic monarch flamboyantly prancing around to a scared and sniveling coward shrieking in dismay. His last lines were a play on this particular joke, and I found it a fitting end. What I think makes it funny is not necessarily the Iine itself, but Humphries delivery. I had a good chuckle at "that'd do it", and many others in the theater did too. I'm no fan of belching-humor, but this is humor I very much enjoy to watch.
People may think that a longer fight between Gandalf and the GK would be a more satisfactory end and I may agree with that, but seeing as this is not a fair fight AT ALL it's natural that it ended as it did. Goblin King may be the weakest of all the enemies faced by the company, and seeing him as an equal to fricking Gandalf (member the guy that killed a balrog?) is a joke; a joke that we see play out in it's entirety.
As for the the bridge falling i find it weird that so many people complain about this scene particular. I personally found the trap-door scene to be more unrealistic, seeing as they should have broken every bone in their body after a long fall like that with so many hard surfaces. In the bridge they are actually sheltered, and the top of the bridge suspends the body of GK, keeping the dwarves underneath pretty safe.
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Arannir
Doriath
Dec 30 2012, 3:18pm
Post #7 of 34
(2993 views)
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I also found the last words of the Great Goblin to be kind of a waste... although after seeing the movie in German first and then in English I was releaved to see the original words are not as goofy as the German version ;) and pacing decisions here What was the German translation?
I feel like Radagast now... it was in my mind until I actually thought about it to write it down and now they are gone... I will investigate and write to you then ;)
(This post was edited by dernwyn on Dec 30 2012, 7:11pm)
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Joe-Mathews
Ossiriand
Dec 30 2012, 3:19pm
Post #8 of 34
(2956 views)
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I have also noticed that, but tried to find the reasons. After all we've been given an ability to analyze these issues. And I think I've found it. Cinematically the ease of killing the Great Goblin was the right decision. Why? An answer - he simply wasn't the main threat, they have given this role to Azog appearing after they have left the mountains. So on the screen it felt like the threat was behind (in the sequence where Bilbo reappears and discusses home). After passing those long tunnels full with the other goblins and defeating them, the Great One has turned into minor issue. Now just imagine how it could've looked otherwise - everywhere they went they killed everything. Starting from the forest they killed the wargs, then - orcs and wargs in the fields, later - goblins etc. And just imagine - then Gandalf kills Goblin King and it takes longer time, let's say 3-4 screentime minutes...and then we rush into the other enemy. It simply wouldn't work. To balance it, one of them has been given a minor importance. Too many long fights would've destroyed it. But, of course, if there was no Azog, it would be correct to focus on Goblin King. What else...Size doesn't mean everything. He was just a foolish creature, depended on other goblins...These are stereotypes - typical masters, which rely on their servants, not able to do anything.
You completely changed my mind on this topic! I hated how the Great Goblin was dispatched so easily, but your points make sense. The Goblin King and his minions were very pathetic, incompetent creatures. They were never as scary or dangerous as the orcs under Azog, Uruk-Hai, or most orcs in the other films. They weren't decent fighting orcs at all. Their dispatch was correctly quick, simple, and easy.
'It is ever so with the things that Men begin: there is a frost in Spring, or a blight in Summer, and they fail of their promise.' ... '[Yet their seed] will lie in the dust and rot to spring up again in times and places unlooked-for.'
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triptrap
Menegroth
Dec 30 2012, 3:19pm
Post #9 of 34
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ma lyst viewing was about a week ago...
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but i think it was something like "das dürfte reichen", which you could also translate into "i guess that's enough" or similar
(This post was edited by triptrap on Dec 30 2012, 3:21pm)
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Arannir
Doriath
Dec 30 2012, 3:22pm
Post #10 of 34
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but i think it was something like "das dürfte reichen", which you could also translate into "i guess that's enough" or similar
Then the difference wasn't that big after all. Maybe it was my overall dissapointment with the German synch that made me hate it even more ;)
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triptrap
Menegroth
Dec 30 2012, 3:29pm
Post #11 of 34
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but a short question: what did you hate so much about the german synch? in the trailers i really didn't like the german voice-acting but i found it to be great in the final movie
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Arannir
Doriath
Dec 30 2012, 3:38pm
Post #12 of 34
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I really cannot stand the German need for synchs in general anymore - even if they are quite decently done for movies.
But after having seen the teaser of the White Council scene first in English and then in German in the actual movie... meh.
I will give to them that they found a great new Gandalf voice since Achim Höppner died and that Galadriel's voice is almost more "out-of-the-world" to Blanchett's.
But especially the Germanised names like Thorin put me off.
(For explanation: They did not leave the English "th" in German but the German "t". They did the same with Minas Tirith or Orthanc. Mithrandir is the only "th" they left. Since it was so important to Tolkien that those names had a specific linguistic origin, they should have been left as they were in the German audio book.)
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QuackingTroll
Doriath
Dec 30 2012, 4:00pm
Post #13 of 34
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First viewing I didn't like any of Goblin Town (spoilers)
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It annoyed me how the dwarves were captured so easily, you assume because of being out-numbered, and the way they get around this is because Gandalf shouts "attack!". Why didn't they do that before? And this was the worst bit, they plough through the hoards of hundreds of goblins so easily, like running through water. It just wasn't believable when you consider the battles in LotR.
Second time it all made sense. When they fall down they drop their weapons and the goblins pick them up, so they're unarmed. Gandalf blasts everyone over and the dwarves get their weapons back. So now they can fight back. This was pretty obvious the second time, but these goblins are not soldiers, they're workers, none of them have weapons, so there's no reason they'd be hard to stop. So naturally the dwarves just go straight through them.
I think this is why the Great Goblin dies so anticlimactically. All he has are large numbers, but once the dwarves are armed there's really not much that numbers can do. Especially when they have Glamdring and Orcrist.
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Indigo55
Registered User
Dec 30 2012, 4:45pm
Post #14 of 34
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It's all down to Gandalf once he shows up. He's a wizard. If he can take out a Balrog he can dispatch the GG pretty easily. He can also give protection to the party so that they survive the falls, etc. Over all, however I think there was a bit too much danger from dangling over great heights thurout the film, it was a bit overused.
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irodino
Nevrast
Dec 30 2012, 4:47pm
Post #15 of 34
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The way its presented may be silly, but not the ease of doing it. I mean on one side we have Gandalf, an Istari, wielding one of the 3 Great Rings AND Glamdring, the Foe-Hammer, and on the other.. an oversized, fat goblin. One slash kill is exactly what is logical in this situation :P in fact Gandalf could kill off all the goblins in Goblin Town at once, all by himself, if he wanted, without breaking a sweat.
I didn't like the scene or the falling bridge though. Even if it is plausible that the sturdy nature of the dwarves allowed them to survive what would be lethal to Men or Hobbits. The fall was so fast, like it was a miniature, the camera was so far away you lose the emotional connection to the characters, and it was just too much overall. At least it was over fast. Certainly not a high point like the Moria bridge scene in FOTR.
"The past tempts us, the present confuses us, and the future frightens us. And our lives slip away, moment by moment, lost in that terrible in-between."
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JWPlatt
Hithlum
Dec 30 2012, 5:23pm
Post #16 of 34
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The falling bridge looked so totally fake it was ridiculous, straight out of a Brendan Fraser movie - easily the weakest outside-the-movie moment for me. But I liked the movie. And I liked the humor of the Goblin King's last line, "That'll do it." I can't fathom anyone not seeing the humor in it, unless you're there to see an Oscar-winning, period piece, romantic drama.
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xxxyyy
Nargothrond
Dec 30 2012, 5:49pm
Post #17 of 34
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I cannot agree with you more. I hope they'll do something for the EE (yes... wishful hope I know) NT
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http://energyfromthorium.com/
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TheWhiteRider
Nevrast
Dec 30 2012, 6:11pm
Post #18 of 34
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I loved the goblin town sequence !!
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Gandalf blasting all the goblins to oblivion, the exquisite sword fighting of balin and thorin, and the numerous decapitations were AWESOME !!
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arithmancer
Hithlum
Dec 30 2012, 6:40pm
Post #19 of 34
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I personally found the trap-door scene to be more unrealistic, seeing as they should have broken every bone in their body after a long fall like that with so many hard surfaces.
On the other hand, it seemed clear from the events of the film that the trap door was designed to trap, rather than kill, intruders into the goblins' territory. The chute ended in that cage-like thing, and the goblins were there ready to swarm their prisoners and bring them before their king. Thus, that they all survived made sense to me. My attitude towards some of the visuals in this sequence (and the stone-giants) is that they may be the film incarnation of Gandalf's comment "every good story deserves embellishment". None of these moments really bothered me.
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sauget.diblosio
Dor-Lomin
Dec 30 2012, 7:38pm
Post #20 of 34
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The Great Goblin was ok, but that chin thing was really stupid. And his last line was pretty hacky, but it didn't really bother me, and i probably would never have noticed it if i hadn't read about it beforehand.
Goblin Town overall was fine-- it looked fantastic design-wise, but the action was a bit of a mess visually. Gandalf's entrance was brilliantly done. But the dwarves surviving that ridiculous bridge fall, much less all of them even staying on it, is beyond hard to believe, and pretty stupid looking. Right up there with Azog and Company hanging onto the stone giants as the worst parts of the movie for me.
Overall, i give the Goblin Town sequence, minus Riddles in the Dark, a C+.
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jtarkey
Nargothrond
Dec 30 2012, 8:31pm
Post #21 of 34
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There's an even worse shot of Kili in Bag End
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It's also my most hated moment in the film.
After Gandalf explains the map and key, the camera cuts to Kili who says "there's another way in!".
Not only is his delivery terrible (he has this weird grin on his face), but everyone around him is inexplicably quiet. He might as well have gotten up and shoved the camera in his face.
"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Dec 30 2012, 10:13pm)
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Ardamírë
Doriath
Dec 30 2012, 8:49pm
Post #22 of 34
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I didn't like that shot either
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I mean, did we really need it explained to us that there was another way in right after we were told that? And Turner's delivery was not very good, IMO, but then I didn't really like him in the rest of the film either.
Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!
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stoutfiles
Nargothrond
Dec 30 2012, 9:31pm
Post #23 of 34
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His death was supposed to be easy
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Tolkien wrote it that way. He should have died the way the book had it though...the lights go out and Gandalf is there killing The Great Goblin instantly, no bridge falling, stupid lines, or complete absense of physics.
I can understand a lot of criticisms, but some are on how Tolkien wrote things. If the book had it a certain way, then following the book is always the correct decision.
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Mardragon
Lindon
Dec 30 2012, 10:20pm
Post #24 of 34
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I admit, I found it amusing...
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I didn't like the way Gangalf killed GG - it seemed ridiculously easy. And Goblin's last words were just stupid,]
...particularly the line in relation to that whole scene, particularly taking into account what he says before.
"What're you going to do now, Wizard, eh?"
<Slash!>
"That'll do it."
And as others have said, I thought Gandalf quick dispatch of the Goblin King completely believable.
And while I thought all the falling from a great height and surviving was a bit much.. it didn't bother me that much. Part of that is due tot he fact the dwarves were usually within a structure which would give them some protection (although probably not a whole lot in the real world).
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YaznegSouth40
Ossiriand
Dec 30 2012, 10:26pm
Post #25 of 34
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part of this film I really did not care for! The Goblin King was a big dissapointment! Even with his look he could have been portrayed in a more menacing way! Heck even in the Rankin Bass cartoon version that Great Goblin was more menacing...and that's a stretch! And yes just too easily dispatched even though by one of the best weapons in Middle-Earth's history ( Glamdring).
(This post was edited by YaznegSouth40 on Dec 30 2012, 10:27pm)
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Very clever. It falling didn't bother me either - we know nothing happens to the Company until the BO5A. Therefore, none of the Company should be seriously injured before then. 
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