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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
My guess: Thrain found in Moria?

Joe-Mathews
Rivendell


Dec 29 2012, 3:41am

Post #1 of 10 (690 views)
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My guess: Thrain found in Moria? Can't Post

I have to give credit to someone else who came up with this idea on another board. I truly regret I don't know who it was...

He/she speculated that in the movie version, Gandalf found the incoherent Thrain in Moria - not Dol Guldur. That Gandalf got the key and map then and has not yet gone near Dol Guldur at all yet. That way Radagast's news of the Necromancer is really news to Gandalf. Gandalf will credit Thrain's madness to torture in Moria by Azog or other orcs and loss of his Dwarf ring. Any mention of madness due to Sauron will only be indirect, due to the loss of Thrain's ring, not by direct interaction with Sauron.

It would explain why in FotR Gandalf said he passed through Moria before. It would also explain why Gandalf expects Azog to be alive when Thorin thought him dead. Perhaps Balin was also with Gandalf during the search of Moria?

It is the only movie fix I see that resolves Gandalf having the map and key without bumping into Sauron at Dol Guldur.

'It is ever so with the things that Men begin: there is a frost in Spring, or a blight in Summer, and they fail of their promise.' ... '[Yet their seed] will lie in the dust and rot to spring up again in times and places unlooked-for.'


Ardamírë
Valinor


Dec 29 2012, 3:46am

Post #2 of 10 (330 views)
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Makes as much sense as anything else [In reply to] Can't Post

It actually seems to make a lot of sense as of right now. I would not at all mind if this were the case.

Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!


stoutfiles
Rohan

Dec 29 2012, 4:46am

Post #3 of 10 (339 views)
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Sure, if they edit the CGI background [In reply to] Can't Post

The trailer of them fighting clearly shows Dol Guldur.

It's more likely that Thrain gives Gandalf the key and map in the past, before he wanders off in his madness, knowing he may never return.

Then, Gandalf meets Thrain in the present where he defeats him. A dying Thrain is reassured by Gandalf that Thorin got the key and map, and then Thrain tells Gandalf to make sure Thorin does not go down the path of greed.

Then the Necromancer appears and summons the Nazgul and other creatures, and Gandalf is worried, but then all the elves show up and there's a massive battle scene ended by Galadriel.


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Dec 29 2012, 5:43am

Post #4 of 10 (305 views)
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that cannot be [In reply to] Can't Post

in the first trailer for AUJ it shows Gandalf fighting Thrain in dol-guldur! ...not moria


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty, oh will you please take me home!!


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Dec 29 2012, 10:10am

Post #5 of 10 (247 views)
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If anything would have driven Thrain mad in Moria. .. [In reply to] Can't Post

it would be the Demon who dwelt within. The one who made Dain, hardy and full of wrath as he was when he slew Azog, come back from the gate "gray in the face, as one who has felt great fear."

Fear. Azog might well smell in that dreadfu Presence. Gothmog (the first and by far the mightiest Gothmog, not the lieutenant of Barad-Dur nor the potato headed orc, but Gothmog The Balrog) dragged Hurin to Melkor with mockery. . . but I don't think Thrain will have been found in Moria, though Gandalf did search for him there in the novels timeline. Meh. Who knows. I try not to speculate on really vague things, much as I speculate on other matters here. lol

In Reply To
I have to give credit to someone else who came up with this idea on another board. I truly regret I don't know who it was...

He/she speculated that in the movie version, Gandalf found the incoherent Thrain in Moria - not Dol Guldur. That Gandalf got the key and map then and has not yet gone near Dol Guldur at all yet. That way Radagast's news of the Necromancer is really news to Gandalf. Gandalf will credit Thrain's madness to torture in Moria by Azog or other orcs and loss of his Dwarf ring. Any mention of madness due to Sauron will only be indirect, due to the loss of Thrain's ring, not by direct interaction with Sauron.

It would explain why in FotR Gandalf said he passed through Moria before. It would also explain why Gandalf expects Azog to be alive when Thorin thought him dead. Perhaps Balin was also with Gandalf during the search of Moria?

It is the only movie fix I see that resolves Gandalf having the map and key without bumping into Sauron at Dol Guldur.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Joe-Mathews
Rivendell


Dec 29 2012, 5:10pm

Post #6 of 10 (180 views)
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Yep. [In reply to] Can't Post

I forgot about that part of the trailer. Eventually they will meet at Dol Guldur and fight. But I do think the idea of Gandalf not having been to Dol Guldur yet and having obtained the map and key elsewhere is still valid and very likely.

The part of the theory that convinced me was the knowing glance between Gandalf and Balin when Thorin claims Azog died years ago. Where else would Gandalf have seen Azog? Gandalf's motive all along was to increase the power of the north by reestablishing Erebor. It made sense for him to look for Thrain to do it before looking for Thorin to do it. It makes sense for Gandalf to look in Moria. There really was no reason for Gandalf to search Dol Guldur for anyone.

I like the idea of Thrain, having lost his dwarf ring (probably having it stolen from him in Moria), giving the map and key to Gandalf for Thorin before trying a fool-hearty quest to regain the ring alone. Gandalf might call that quest madness without suspecting Sauron's return. That will still leave open the possibility of Gandalf and a Sauron-controlled Thrain battling at Dol Guldur in either movie 2 or 3.

'It is ever so with the things that Men begin: there is a frost in Spring, or a blight in Summer, and they fail of their promise.' ... '[Yet their seed] will lie in the dust and rot to spring up again in times and places unlooked-for.'


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Dec 29 2012, 6:39pm

Post #7 of 10 (149 views)
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so.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf finds Thrain in Moria, i could see that. That way they could show us some pre FOTR Moria and maybe have a balrog cameo. Azog hands Thrain over to the Necromancer....this could work!


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty, oh will you please take me home!!


Rostron2
Gondor


Dec 29 2012, 7:14pm

Post #8 of 10 (142 views)
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Interesting idea [In reply to] Can't Post

It is an alteration of the map and key story, since Gandalf 'found him a prisoner in the dungeons of the Necromancer' presumably Dol Guldur. I still think it's a flashback, but then they already have had Radagast go there too as you say, and makes the narrative make sense.


vexx801
Rivendell

Dec 29 2012, 10:41pm

Post #9 of 10 (106 views)
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Well then. [In reply to] Can't Post

Having read this and the following posts, I actually really like this idea. Maybe they could open up DOS with Gandalf in Moria finding Thrain and getting the map and key (Balrog cameo would be nice but not sure if they'd do a full reveal), and maybe we see Azog at some point. I wouldn't mind that, because in the three times I've seen the film, Azog seems to look at Gandalf like he knows him or something. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong.

But anyway, I think it would be a brilliant idea to set up the movie like that, starting with a pre-Hobbit Moria flashback between Gandalf and Thrain. That way, it would make sense if later in the film Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur and finds Thrain, there's more of an impact on the audience, besides a few references to Thrain's disappearance in AUJ.


nhui06
Rivendell

Dec 31 2012, 6:38pm

Post #10 of 10 (86 views)
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Maybe.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Not a bad idea. I felt PJ deliberately hid Thrain from AUJ for whatever reason. We just know that he was driven to madness and was never heard of again. They will eventually have to reveal Thrain and how Gandalf got the key, and it seems like the shot of Thrain in Dol Guldur was present day (not a flash back).

In regards to Gandalf knowing about Azog, I too noticed that part, but then again Gandalf knows a lot but he chose not to disclose it to Thorin (probably to keep him focused on the quest). Gandalf may not have to see Azog with his own eyes to know.

I personally do not want to see Balrog in this series. I thought his entrance and reveal in FOTR was perfect!

 
 

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