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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 25 2007, 6:10am
Post #2 of 23
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You caught a tough week, with the holiday in the U.S., but got some lively responses, it seems (I myself wasn't able to keep up, but I'll be working through your posts in the next few days, while also responding to dernwyn).
Apologies if this has already been asked: why the word "conspiracy"? Are there historical examples where that word has positive connotations, as it must in this story? Or did Tolkien use it for his chapter title to mislead the reader into thinking something sinister would be revealed here?
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 25 2007, 2:44pm
Post #3 of 23
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It's similar to calling Bilbo a Burglar.
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I think the hobbits themselves call it a conspiracy, or use language of that kind. And after all, they were spying. Frodo brings up the issue of whether he can trust any of them, and Merry makes what I consider a profound response.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 25 2007, 7:57pm
Post #4 of 23
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Now there's an expression I'm going to have to find a use for! 
Thanks so much, Nerdanel, for a great week's discussion!
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 25 2007, 9:34pm
Post #5 of 23
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"a great chapter with a great bath"!
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It doesn't get much better than that! 
Thanks, Nerdanel, it's been a fun week with some very interesting discussions, and some very useful words put in mind. Although, like NEB, it looks like I'm still going to be reading through some of the threads, while posting my own...shouldn't be too hard, nothing ever happens while taking a leisurely stroll through the woods...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 26 2007, 7:41am
Post #6 of 23
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Merry and Pippins' knowledge of Middle Earth
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One thing that makes me wonder about the conspiracy is still how much the Hobbits know what they are getting into. Frodo of course has read the ancient histories, and we get the feeling that Sam has, also. But how much do Merry and Pippin know about, for example, Isengard? When they wind up going there, what can they harken back to in their readings and fire-light tales that gave them the history of the vale? The same goes for any number of the other places - and in some cases people (Galadriel is old enough to be legendary) - they meet.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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squire
Gondolin
Nov 26 2007, 11:23am
Post #7 of 23
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A petrifying lack of curiosity
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One gets the feeling from Merry's speech about the Old Forest that he and Pippin are trusting to Hobbit-sense, not wisdom, to get them through wherever they are going. They show no evidence that I can remember of any knowledge of the various parts and peoples of Middle-earth that lie outside the Shire, beyond what little they may have picked up from reading and/or talking about Bilbo's book.
Later in the story we hear that Pippin trusted that others would guide him, so that he would not have to find his way around by himself. Merry at least looked at the maps in Rivendell.
I have always been frustrated that Tolkien felt compelled to convey the impression that two nights with Bombadil, several weeks with Strider on the road, three months in Rivendell, and several more weeks with Strider, Gandalf, Legolas, Gimli, and Boromir on the road -- with all the trail talk and campfire lore that might imply -- had no perceptible effect on any of the younger hobbits' knowledge base by the time things get interesting, i.e. when the story really picks up, at Moria.
What did everybody talk about during all that time? It makes Merry, Pippin and Sam seem not just limited in outlook, but positively obtuse.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 26 2007, 12:57pm
Post #8 of 23
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I know many people that obtuse.
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And I myself was that obtuse as a child, when I trusted my father to guide us where we were going. My father was amazed when I learned to drive that I had no idea how to get anywhere. But my father had a story from his childhood where he could not give directions to a street two blocks from where he lived.
When I married my wife she owned no roadmaps -- none. Instead she had a list of directions to various places in her car, and God help her if she missed a turn. She still hates driving in unfamiliar territory, although she knows the city better than I do.
I usually like to know where I am these days, but the last time I remember getting lost I was trusting a friend to keep track of direction. I think it is precisely because the hobbits were with Aragorn and Gandalf that they might not have concerned themselves with where they were going. Like tourists on a tour, they simply followed their guide.
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weaver
Gondolin
Nov 26 2007, 5:39pm
Post #9 of 23
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I lurked and learned -- thanks!
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Couldn't come up with anything particularly insightful to add most of the time, but I did enjoy the discussion. Thanks for an interesting assortment of questions!
Weaver
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 26 2007, 6:24pm
Post #10 of 23
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If you have the time, I suggest answering before reading
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everyone else's comments, and not worrying about whether you are repeating what someone else already said, let alone saying something "wrong." Most of these questions have no right answers (it's not a trivia quiz), and when several people offer opinions I often see interesting and unexpected variations.
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weaver
Gondolin
Nov 26 2007, 6:33pm
Post #11 of 23
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thanks that's good advice for me and others...
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By and large I like to add new thoughts but you are right, sometimes saying the same thing slightly differently is just as good. And it might spark other discussion. Thanks for taking time to make this point for me and others who are on and off again participants around here!
Weaver
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squire
Gondolin
Nov 26 2007, 10:30pm
Post #12 of 23
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Not the location, but "the history of the vale" was unspoken
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The question seemed to me not to be whether the hobbits knew where they were in Middle-earth, while in the company of their guides. I thought what was curious was that the hobbits had no interest in the history or lore of Middle-earth's places and people - a subject I had thought both interesting and accessible even to map-challenged folk.
Wouldn't the lore of Bombadil or the songs of Rivendell and its Elves have made some impression? Wouldn't all those wise older travellers have talked or sung to the Hobbits about Rohan, Lothlorien, Gondor, Wilderland, Hollin, etc., during those long hikes, cold nights on watch and hasty meals in the wind? So that - maps aside - they would not be so utterly clueless about the folk they meet and the places they encounter later on?
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 26 2007, 10:48pm
Post #13 of 23
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I think Tolkien set the hobbits up to be so incurious in The Hobbit. Remember how all the maps seem to stop at the borders of the Shire, and nothing beyond was shown - just empty space.
I actually see this attitude in daily life - that nothing matters beyond a person's own geographic center. We have jokes about fly-over country in the US, implying that nothing matters except what's on the East and West Coasts. As a life-long resident of that fly-over country, I'm acutely aware of the assumption that there's no "there" there.
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 26 2007, 11:12pm
Post #14 of 23
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And similarly many world travellers
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stick to resorts and hotel chains that remind them of home. Even in the pre-industrial days, American and European travellors attempted to bring their culture with them to new lands, and a white man who expressed too much interest in the local culture was said to have "gone native," with much disapproval.
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 26 2007, 11:22pm
Post #15 of 23
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from walking all day, every day, to learn at night. The long hikes and cold watches were mostly spent in silence, from what I can tell in the narrative. They do learn a few things in Rivendell and Lothlorien, but they were also resting and recuperating, and there were lots of distractions.
Plus, I think they were in denial, and did not want to hear all about the horrible fate that awaited them. And Gandalf and Aragorn might have been content to leave them that way, since there was simply no way to educate the hobbits enough to turn them into seasoned travellers or expert guides. Leaving them so ill prepared would normally be a death sentence in Middle-earth, just as it would in the Primary World, but how do you prepare for the impossible?
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 27 2007, 2:21am
Post #16 of 23
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Considering the danger that the Fellowship was in through most of its journey, I can understand everybody being quiet and alert as much as possible just in case something comes in their way, so I can imagine not making a great deal of trail talk. Still, "where are we going" seems to be a question that I would be asking if I were a Hobbit, and the answer clearly is that there is a lot of ground to cover between Rivendell and Mordor!
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 27 2007, 8:56am
Post #17 of 23
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What did everybody talk about during all that time?
We noticed earlier that the folk with the knowledge in Middle-earth (Elves, Gandalf, Strider) aren't quick to share. The seem to deliberately leave the hobbits in the dark. I suspect that they deliberately didn't give the hobbits too much detail about the places they were going, because they were trusting to "providence", or the hobbits' natural reactions, and didn't want to burden them with too much knowledge of just how big a challenge they were up against.
Tolkien is also invoking a world where knowledge is much more rare than it is in our world. The Rohirrim and the hobbits are no more than vague legends to each other. Elves are vague legends to both the Rohirrim and the hobbits. It's true that the Fellowship included a couple of people who had travelled, and therefore knew much more - but they are notoriously close with the knowledge they have.
Plus, storywise, Merry and Pippin are our representatives as Middle-earth tourists. They experience the wonder of discovery on our behalf. And it's much more satisfying to discover a new place unexpectedly than to have read about it in the guide-book first.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Morwen
Nargothrond
Nov 28 2007, 1:10pm
Post #18 of 23
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NEB made a similiar suggestion back at the beginning of this discussion cycle. I always felt compelled to read every new post on the board before I added anything so I didn't say anything stupid or redundant. I often fell behind and ended up dropping out because of this, and the possibility that I would say something stupid certainly still existed. I think I'll start just jumpiing in if I feel like it.
Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you; you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 6 2007, 9:50pm
Post #19 of 23
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Frodo's never heard of Saruman.
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We learned that in "The Shadow of the Past". So it seems unlikely that Merry and Pippin had heard of Isengard before reaching Rivendell.
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Dec. 3-9 for "In the House of Tom Bombadil".
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 7 2007, 1:14am
Post #20 of 23
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Who did Frodo buy Crickhollow from?
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Is it important that Merry, if he even managed to read the appropriate chapter of Bilbo's book, learned only the false version of how he got the Ring from Gollum?
Can Frodo's determination here, after a short period of deliberation, to leave the Shire at once be compared in any fruitful way to his decision at the Council of Elrond to take the Ring to Mordor?
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Dec. 3-9 for "In the House of Tom Bombadil".
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 7 2007, 9:15am
Post #21 of 23
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A Very Nice Thought; and justice to PJ
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Is it important that Merry, if he even managed to read the appropriate chapter of Bilbo's book, learned only the false version of how he got the Ring from Gollum?
That's nice! But it assumes a far more mature and understanding Merry than even Gandalf was.
By the way, I must point out that PJ and crew did bother to reinforce quite often, that Merry is the nearest thing to a formidable hobbit that exists. But thay have decided to scrap chapters 5-8, so the point is to subtle for most movie viewers.
I have actually read FOTR last of the three volumes; after I saw Bakshi's movies I was intersted enough to make a mental note to read LOTR once I find it in a library, and TTT was the first I've found (I wouldn't have started with ROTK). Therefore, for me this chapter came as a pleasant surprise - Merry was one of my favourites, and I've felt he was underestimated (try reading The Uruk Hai first, and at the age of about 12).
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 7 2007, 11:56pm
Post #22 of 23
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I missed your previous three posts until just now, buried as they are in the back issues of the Reading Room. Most interesting, all three, and this one too.
As regards Merry, I may have been unclear: I meant that, it is clear that he and other hobbits knew some stories concerning Bilbo's journey to Erebor, but without reference to the Ring.* In his quick look at Bilbo's book, did he read the Gollum episode? And does it matter that this episode is false?
*For the matter, how did Bilbo relate his adventures with Gollum, the Goblin-gate, the Spiders, the Wood-elves, Smaug, and the Arkenstone without mentioning the Ring? How many lies did he have to tell to keep it secret?
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 9 2007, 8:15pm
Post #23 of 23
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Thank you very much, both for the welcome and for the compliment. As a new person around, I've been skimming through previous discussions, with the intention not to post - but sometimes I couldn't help myself.
As for your question - I'm pretty sure Merry was looking specifically for something to explain Bilbo's disappearing (I would), and hit upon the Gollum chapter (he might have realised this story was fishy).
He probably didn't know the story was false (Frodo didn't at first), and had he known, he would have attached to the lie no significance (as Frodo did, at least untill Gandalf told him).
Anyway, Bilbo managed to elude three trolls without a magic ring. Not quite on the same level as fooling the Elves, but he could still reduce the other stories to make them fit.
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