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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
I do not get the.....
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YaznegSouth40
Rivendell

Dec 28 2012, 4:39pm

Post #1 of 43 (1409 views)
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I do not get the..... Can't Post

supreme hatred over Azog? Just by reading more reviews and whenever Azog is brought up, I do not believe I have ever seen a character (especially villian) hated SO much as to akin to Saddam Hussein, Hitler or the like.....it's a movie character! And a computer generated one at that! Everybody has their opinions and I completely understand that! However when those of us who DO like the character cannot talk about him without the ones who do not like him raining in on our parade...that's when it gets iritating! It's like they want to convince us to hate him as well. I absolutely LOVED this film (almost everything was great) and like I have said before will probably LOVE the next 2 even more!


(This post was edited by YaznegSouth40 on Dec 28 2012, 4:40pm)


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Dec 28 2012, 4:43pm

Post #2 of 43 (645 views)
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So-tell us what you liked about Azog! [In reply to] Can't Post

Just because others may not like him--and there is a thread below for that--doesn't mean you can't say why you do like him.

I'm open for other points of view. Maybe you can help change my mind Smile

" Well well!", said a voice. "Just look! Bilbo the hobbit on a pony, my dear! Isn't it delicious!"
"Most astonishing wonderful!"


DanielLB
Immortal


Dec 28 2012, 4:43pm

Post #3 of 43 (573 views)
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If this were the case [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Just by reading more reviews and whenever Azog is brought up, I do not believe I have ever seen a character (especially villian) hated SO much as to akin to Saddam Hussein, Hitler or the like.....it's a movie character!


Then they need to get out more. I've not seen anyone suggest this on here, mind.

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



painjoiker
Grey Havens


Dec 28 2012, 4:47pm

Post #4 of 43 (553 views)
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EY! [In reply to] Can't Post

I dig Azog to bits! Wink
I WANT MORE DEFILING IN DOS!!! Cool

Vocalist in the semi-progressive metal band Arctic Eclipse


unexpectedvisitor
Rohan

Dec 28 2012, 4:48pm

Post #5 of 43 (558 views)
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i sorta get it [In reply to] Can't Post

even though i don't personally feel it.

but i wonder if people wouldn't mind as much if he had been created out of the blue instead of used from canon. or if he had died at the end of AUJ? because he really serves the same purpose that Lurtz did in FotR (and doesn't have that much more screen time, honestly), and i don't remember people getting too worked up over Lurtz.

i personally LIKE the fact that they used a villain like him from the Tolkien backstory that's connected to the dwarves. that feels less lazy, more integrated into the Tolkien lore to me than just making up some "lead orc baddie" like they did with Lurtz and potato-face in RotK. and you also get that established animosity with Thorin which is good, cinematically. i guess, in essence, it just really bothers some people that they'd be using a character that Tolkien said was dead. but one thing to remember, though, is that Tolkien often talked about his own writing like he was just relating lore and so inaccuracies and contradictions within his work could often be chalked up to that fact. what if in the film's version of the story (SPOILERS) Azog did die from his wounds and was later resurrected by the Necromancer, as some are guessing? then it's not such a drastic departure from the canon and, in a way, is quite a clever addition to the story.


YaznegSouth40
Rivendell

Dec 28 2012, 4:54pm

Post #6 of 43 (624 views)
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All I am saying.... [In reply to] Can't Post

is that in the moments when we (those who do like Azog) talk positive about him and what we like about the character the dislikers seem to chime in! The dislikers have already expressed their feelings already...no need to chime in when the likers are elaborating is all I am saying! I will be viewing The Hobbit for only my second viewing today and even after seeing the film only once before Christmas I came away impressed (even with Azog). I do not dislike anything about him! I do not think his cgi looks fake! If you stare at the facial features carefully it is so REALISTIC! Yes you KNOW it is a computer generated image, but as a fan I tend to look at the positive and see if I can see it as a credible realistic being...and it does. I like his look as well...no complaints. And a final thing...He's not even depicted how I visualized him! So despite that ...I still liked what they did!


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Dec 28 2012, 4:58pm

Post #7 of 43 (561 views)
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Welcome to the internet. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Êleniel Tindome
Bree

Dec 28 2012, 5:02pm

Post #8 of 43 (549 views)
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Azog badass [In reply to] Can't Post

all people I watched the movie with (non-fans) loved azog. they even said hes way more "cool" than other orks/goblins....


Lindele
Gondor


Dec 28 2012, 5:02pm

Post #9 of 43 (530 views)
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In general [In reply to] Can't Post

people seem to have a difficult time using there imaginations when watching films like The Hobbit. This is most likely due to the fact that society is constantly progressing in a way that allows people to not use their imaginations for anything.
I agree that the CGI looks pretty good, and of course I know it is fake but my imagination is able to accept that he is a real character in that world.


Eledhwen
Forum Admin / Moderator


Dec 28 2012, 5:03pm

Post #10 of 43 (516 views)
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Well, that's the nature of the world [In reply to] Can't Post

Some people like stuff. Others don't. Marmite's the classic example. Wink Azog appears to be the Marmite of the Hobbit films. Just as you're perfectly entitled to love the character, and defend him, others are perfectly entitled to dislike him and say why. Personally I found him a bit annoying although I see why he's included as an antagonist until we get Smaug in action. This is, after all, a discussion board and many opinions make for a better discussion.

Storm clouds


painjoiker
Grey Havens


Dec 28 2012, 5:05pm

Post #11 of 43 (528 views)
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Bravo! [In reply to] Can't Post

Couldn't have said this better!
I'm also really fan of the black speech!
It fits the character!

Vocalist in the semi-progressive metal band Arctic Eclipse


Ardamírë
Valinor


Dec 28 2012, 5:06pm

Post #12 of 43 (516 views)
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I can suggest it [In reply to] Can't Post

If you'd like WinkTongue

Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!


DanielLB
Immortal


Dec 28 2012, 5:09pm

Post #13 of 43 (517 views)
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I like his design and ... [In reply to] Can't Post

The CGI used and his application. I don't like the change in continuity, but I can live with it.

I quite like the character. He's a believable villain, and I look forward to Thorin's and Azog's final confrontation.

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Kassandros
Rohan


Dec 28 2012, 5:22pm

Post #14 of 43 (479 views)
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No one says they hate him like Hitler... [In reply to] Can't Post

You're setting up a strawman there. No one hates Azog like Hitler or anything. They just don't feel he adds to the movie and don't appreciate the drastic change to the story that is represented by made by his inclusion.

The thing is, the wargs and the trees is one of the iconic scenes in The Hobbit and the movie version completely changes it to make it virtually unrecognizable. It'd be like if Lurtz arrived at Mt Doom and pushed Gollum in himself. It wouldn't be Lord of the Rings anymore, would it? Well, Thorin charging Azog at the end of AUJ is completely different from the book. It's just a big change and it really neuters the wargs who are their own independent, thinking race in The Hobbit. In AUJ, they're just mounts. It's sad.

Another problem is that Bilbo proves himself by an act of bravery rather than an act of wits. In the book, when he proves himself by rescuing the dwarves from the spiders and then from the elves, he has to use its wits and his courage. Taking any intelligence away from his act of proving himself makes him a thinner character in the movie, or at least makes the act less interesting and integral to his character. Basically, in the book, his two key heroic traits were smarts and courage. In the movie, it's just courage.

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...


Simon
Rivendell

Dec 28 2012, 5:22pm

Post #15 of 43 (472 views)
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Azog work for me [In reply to] Can't Post

In term of CGI and design he was cool i think...but he work more from the standing point of Thorin...its the conflict between him and Thorin that put a little depth in the character Smile


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Dec 28 2012, 5:25pm

Post #16 of 43 (474 views)
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I don't hate him, [In reply to] Can't Post

I just think he's poorly developed, poorly designed, and poorly executed. And i really don't like what they had to do to that brilliant bit of Tolkien's dwarven history to get him into the film. It would have been much better to leave him in the past, use him in flash-back only (much like Isuldur), and let Bolg serve this function.

Loved the Black Speech, though! I wish they did more of this sort of thing.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Dec 28 2012, 6:12pm

Post #17 of 43 (453 views)
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I will say again, the character is fine, as I see him. His placement is horrendous, and is part of a larger flaw. [In reply to] Can't Post

The tale of the Dwarves, of the grief and rage of Thrain, and of the war of vengeance they launched to take retribution for the slaying of The Heir of Durin, is truly epic and staggeringly powerful. Nothing else would have brought all Seven Dwarf Houses together. Moria was not the ancestral home of The Other Six Houses (and they had never dwelt in Erebor, which Thror's far ancestor Thrain I had founded after Durin's House fled the inexorable wrath of The Balrog in Moria), but Durin was The Eldest of The Forefathers, and the first of their kind, and so greivous a desecration of his heir filled them with a special wrath and hatred. All of that is lost in this translation. The hunting "for Azog in every den under the mountains," is gone. There is unfounded talk of Azog having sworn to wipe out Durin's line, when in fact the almost polar reverse is true: when Azog desecrated the body of Thror, The Dwarves of every nation vowed to wipe HIM out, and they began a quasi-genocidal war against the goblin/orc race "sacking every stronghold of the orcs that they could find from Gundabad to The Gladden." We may yet see the real cause of the Dwarves decision to leave Moria to The Shadow, that being The Great Shadow within, who slew their ancestor kings with impunity, haunted their most dreadful nightmares and against whom their arms could not avail: The Balrog. There is at least hope that something of that may yet be maintained in latter flashbacks. But the rest has been mangled, and that could have been avoided by using Bolg in Azog's place. . . or even by a ressurection of Azog.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


Dec 28 2012, 6:35pm

Post #18 of 43 (427 views)
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I highly agree!. I just can't tear myself away from that canon which is ingrained in my head :(. -that's- exactly what I've found wrong [In reply to] Can't Post

and really it's sad, as I'm not usually this purist!

--I'm a victim of Bifurcation--
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Iowaboy
The Shire

Dec 28 2012, 6:44pm

Post #19 of 43 (479 views)
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I think one can sum up the Azog-hate quite easily: [In reply to] Can't Post

1. A lot of us do not care for his 'look', which for me screams CGI. If they had used a 'real' person (think a TTT Berserker), that would improve my impression of the character by at least 50%.

2. I think his plot role is rather forced, and his character-development weak. PJ et Co have this bad habit for forcing a dramatic arc on characters who don't really seem to need one--I'm thinking of Arwen and Faramir in TTT/ROTK, and the use of Pippin/Merry in getting the Ents to attack Isengard, for example. All of that seemed forced to me in those films, and unneeded. Same with Azog/Thorin. I think the dramatic arc of Thorin trying to unite the dwarves and prove himself a great leader is more than enough without having a one-dimensional orc villain to contend with.

3. The big scene at the end with Azog is a mess, thematically. I was fine with Thorin doing basically his suicidal charge at Azog, since that seems a logical part of his character, and his need to prove himself in some way. But then it falls apart: Thorin puts up a terrible fight, gets his butt kicked, and friggin' BILBO (!) comes in to save him. I have a lot of trouble with this sequence, and the choices PJ made in how it played out. Why not have Thorin and Azog battle like crazy, only to have an Eagle swoop down and drag Thorin away to safety, when clearly Thorin--even though he would likely die--wanted to stay and fight his nemesis? Why insert Bilbo at all?

4. Azog is the same basic character as Lurtz, or the General Orc in FOTR, or any one of a number of 'baddies' in this series. He has a real 'been there, done that' feel to him. Better to have minimized his role rather than accentuate it.


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Dec 28 2012, 6:50pm

Post #20 of 43 (426 views)
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Sadly, that's the nature of a comment thread. [In reply to] Can't Post

Everyone has a right to their opinions, and so do those who read said opinions. Maybe you could create a "I Love Azog!" thread--but that probably won't keep out the nay-sayers. It's a hazard for sure. Just keep cool and emphasize your own opinions, and try not to get into arguments with the disagreers.

" Well well!", said a voice. "Just look! Bilbo the hobbit on a pony, my dear! Isn't it delicious!"
"Most astonishing wonderful!"


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea

Dec 28 2012, 6:53pm

Post #21 of 43 (404 views)
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Not a purist either. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't usually mind changes to character or motivation-- i didn't mind the changes made to Aragorn, or even Farimir, for instance. But i DO mind changes to monumental events of the history of Middle-earth, like what they're doing to the Battle of Azanulzibar or the doings of the nine Ringwraiths. Especially when they can achieve what they need through other means. To me, it's just lazy writing, and a seeming growing disrespect for Tolkien's intricately woven history. Need a cool villain fast? We'll just drastically alter dwarven history!


YaznegSouth40
Rivendell

Dec 28 2012, 6:56pm

Post #22 of 43 (394 views)
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Exactly...Lindele... [In reply to] Can't Post

  
Exactly what I mean!


(This post was edited by YaznegSouth40 on Dec 28 2012, 6:57pm)


Ardamírë
Valinor


Dec 28 2012, 6:56pm

Post #23 of 43 (411 views)
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How about Jar Jar Binks? [In reply to] Can't Post

Easily more hated than Azog. I really do understand where you're coming from, because I love Jar Jar and the Star Wars prequels in general, but that's is definitely not a very welcomed opinion.

What I've learned is that people will air their opinions whether you want to read them or not. It's best to just let it roll off of you and not let it get you all riled up.

Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!


Ardamírë
Valinor


Dec 28 2012, 6:58pm

Post #24 of 43 (389 views)
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Or it could be... [In reply to] Can't Post

That he looks like a cartoon in an otherwise fairly realistic-looking film and that his backstory was completely thrown under the bus in order to create a half-baked storyline.

ETA - Yay! I've made it to Tol Eressea!

Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima! Hail Eärendil, brightest of stars!

(This post was edited by Ardamírë on Dec 28 2012, 6:59pm)


YaznegSouth40
Rivendell

Dec 28 2012, 7:07pm

Post #25 of 43 (384 views)
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Kassandros I understand that.... [In reply to] Can't Post

as well....that is the change they did to the backstory. But it just does not bother me. I kinda would have liked to have seen..for instance the Azog beheaded by Dain Ironfoot ...stay the same as in the appendices..but...I still accept what was done! I"m not as worked up about it as it may seem..but the fact that perhaps my most loved book has finally been brought to the big screen in dramatic fashion has me excited that's all! Waited exactly 31 years since I was 9 years old when I first had the story read to our class in elementary school then I read it myself a short time later.


(This post was edited by YaznegSouth40 on Dec 28 2012, 7:09pm)

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