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Nerdanel
Ossiriand
Nov 23 2007, 9:21pm
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Chapter 5: A Conspiracy Unmasked VI
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Frodo has had a relaxing bath and a(nother) good meal with friends and loved ones (as, I hope, have all of you--Happy Thanksgiving to those in the US and anyone else who wants one!) and is coming to terms with the surprising business of the chapter.
'But it does not seem that I can trust anyone,' said Frodo.
Sam looked at him unhappily. 'It all depends on what you want,' put in Merry. . . . But you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone, and go off without a word.' . . .
'You are a set of deceitful scoundrels!' he (Frodo) said."
Picking up on Entwife Wandlimb's comment about eavesdropping servants, what do you think of the ethics or morality of Frodo and the conspirators? Frodo has lied to everyone but Sam, Sam has lied to everyone, including his father, and everyone has lied to all the people of the Shire and Buckland. Was there no other way to get the Ring on the road?
So now it has been decided that Frodo and Sam will be accompanied on their journey by important members of the rising generation of each of the Shire's two oldest and most prominent families who, so far as we know, have not spent the past summer setting up elaborate cover stories.
Won't the sudden disappearance of Merry and Pippin attract more notice than Frodo's departure ever could have gotten? What happened to secrecy? Speculate on what Merry and Pippin might be doing/have done to mitigate the shock of their own vanishing?
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 24 2007, 10:52am
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Picking up on Entwife Wandlimb's comment about eavesdropping servants, what do you think of the ethics or morality of Frodo and the conspirators?
One of Tolkien's continuing themes is that good soldiers exercise good judgment, rather than blindly following instructions. Thus Eomer, Hama, Faramir, and Beregond all show their loyalty and judgment by ignoring their strict instructions, while Haldir does not exercise good judgment when he insists on blindfolding Gimli, and Celeborn almost follows suit until Galadriel intervenes.
I also think Aragorn exercises good judgment when he uses the palantir despite Gandalf's advice, although Darkstone disagrees with me. I suppose it is debateable whether Eowyn exercises good judgment when she follows Theoden to battle, but it turns out to be a good thing that she and Merry come along for the ride.
Similarly, Sam is loyal but not blindly obedient. And Frodo's friends are loyal even when they deceive him.
Frodo has lied to everyone but Sam, Sam has lied to everyone, including his father, and everyone has lied to all the people of the Shire and Buckland. Was there no other way to get the Ring on the road?
Has Frodo really lied to everyone? He really did sell Bag End, and really did buy a home in Crickhollow. When did he lie? Similarly, Sam really did go with Frodo to serve him, as he told his father he would. I don't think that involved any promise that he would stay put in Crickhollow.
Won't the sudden disappearance of Merry and Pippin attract more notice than Frodo's departure ever could have gotten? What happened to secrecy? Speculate on what Merry and Pippin might be doing/have done to mitigate the shock of their own vanishing?
Selling Bag End and moving to Crickhollow simply delayed the notice that Frodo's disappearance would cause. Because it was normal for Merry and Pippin to help Frodo move, that did not attract any additional notice. Of course after the hobbits left the Shire tongues would wag, but by then they would be gone, and Fatty could tell Merry and Pippin's families what happened.
Fortunately, it was quite common for young Tooks and Brandybucks to go on an adventure now and then, so although their families might worry, I don't think they would be shocked. I also don't think Merry and Pippin would have done anything to tip off their families about their plans, although I suppose one or two of their close relatives might have suspected something. As for the Gaffer, he might well worry about Sam, but Sam had come of age and could make his own decisions.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 24 2007, 11:00am
Post #3 of 17
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Picking up on Entwife Wandlimb's comment about eavesdropping servants, what do you think of the ethics or morality of Frodo and the conspirators? Frodo has lied to everyone but Sam, Sam has lied to everyone, including his father, and everyone has lied to all the people of the Shire and Buckland. Was there no other way to get the Ring on the road?
This goes back to what we said earlier, about Bilbo lying about his experiences with Gollum, and keeping his book and the Ring a secret from almost everyone. It also goes back to a discussion we had earlier about Gandalf's reticence with Frodo. Gandalf certainly doesn't tell Frodo everything he knows or suspects - he doesn't even tell him that he knows where Bilbo is, and that he's safe and well. I don't think we picked up on it this time through, but Frodo also asks Gildor, quite specifically, if he's seen Bilbo, and Gildor replies that he has, but will not say where. This is probably a case of not "meddling in the affairs of wizards" for Gildor - his policy is, don't give out information that someone else may not want known. But secrecy (perhaps moreso than outright lies) runs through all these early chapters. Some of it might be "blamed" on the Ring, and some of it explained away as necessary caution because "the enemy has many spies". And some of it, perhaps, is just for storytelling purposes, to keep us guessing and intrigued. Perhaps we'll be discussing secrecy again when we get to Strider!
In terms of the storytelling, I think Tolkien does love riddles, as he showed us quite clearly in The Hobbit. Much of LotR, including much of the character development, is told via hints and clues (for example, see Curious' summing up of the mystery of Aragorn's character here). Maybe it's an extension of his technique in The Hobbit, but I also think it may be a mode of storytelling that occurred to him because his life's work was a kind of riddle-solving exercise, trying to work out from inadequate clues what the English language was like in the first centuries of its existence, and what we might be able to unravel from the few remnants that remain of a great oral tradition. So the secrets and riddles of the early chapters are just a foretaste of all the mystery to come!
Won't the sudden disappearance of Merry and Pippin attract more notice than Frodo's departure ever could have gotten? What happened to secrecy? Speculate on what Merry and Pippin might be doing/have done to mitigate the shock of their own vanishing?
Well, they've had plenty of time to make their own preparations, although we never find out what they are. Perhaps all they did was tell people that they would be staying as guests with Frodo at Crickhollow for a bit, to help him set up house. I think that was the plan originally anyway - it was having the Rider catch up with them on the road that made Frodo decide that he couldn't wait and play out the scene he'd intended with Merry and Pippin. I think Frodo probably had had thoughts of staying in Crickhollow a while, until a good time came to slip away. He was a great procrastinator, as we know, and this must have seemed another comforting place to aim for, so as not to have to face up to the full reality of his journey for a while longer.
Another thing I find myself wondering about is whether this was a bit like the experience of Tolkien and his friends facing up to their duty to enlist in WWI. There was no conscription, at least at first, I believe, but young men enlisted out of a sense of duty and perhaps social pressure. No doubt they also faced difficult moments telling their loved ones that they'd decided to go, and perhaps putting off the evil moment of telling them until the last minute. I don't know if any of this applied to Tolkien, but he certainly lived through a time that had a lot of parallels with what Frodo is going through here.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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entmaiden
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Nov 24 2007, 12:42pm
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that Merry and Pippin are the heirs of their respective families at this point? Maybe they became the leaders of the Brandybucks and Tooks because of their adventures with Frodo. If so, then leaving the Shire would not cause a lot of comment - as Curious said, their families have a history of adventures, and Merry had certainly ventured out of the Shire before.
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 24 2007, 12:49pm
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As you say, we see more secrecy than "outright lies." Gandalf found Bilbo's lie about how he obtained the ring from Gollum quite disturbing, but counseled both Bilbo and Frodo to keep the ring itself a secret. Similarly, I don't think Gandalf lies to Frodo, even though he doesn't volunteer the information that Bilbo is in Rivendell. As for Gildor not saying where Bilbo is, I think he was respecting Bilbo's privacy, and not Gandalf's secrecy. But you are also correct that to tell Frodo where Bilbo is would also spoil the surprise for the reader, so many of the secrets are part of good storytelling. Still, I can't think of any examples of Tolkien condoning a lie, even though many of his best characters hide important secrets.
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 24 2007, 12:53pm
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Tolkien doesn't tell us until the appendices,
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but yes, in hindsight we can see that Merry and Pippin are already the heirs of their families. Still, I think that is all the more reason why their families would not be shocked to discover that they had gone on an adventure. It might well cause comment, but not shock, and it would only cause comment after they had already left.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 24 2007, 1:13pm
Post #7 of 17
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It's certainly more about discretion
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or sometimes, reticence.
Still, I can't think of any examples of Tolkien condoning a lie, even though many of his best characters hide important secrets.
I agree that there's little that could be called an outright lie. The characters conceal their motives, and are sometimes reticent about putting anything too personal or emotional into words. That's a very English trait. We see it here with Frodo's reaction of relief when he finds out his friends already know his story, and he doesn't have to break it to them.
It seems to lie at the heart of Aragorn's behaviour towards Eowyn - instead of saying something discreet but clear to her about being committed to someone else, he makes his cryptic remarks along the lines of "were I to go where my heart dwells..." To me, this seems almost like moral cowardice, although of course it's not meant to seem that way - it's presumably part of a culture that cannot speak of "affairs of the heart" directly. In the same way, Sam never mentions his relationship with Rosie, so that the news that he's "spoken" to her comes as a complete surprise to Frodo.
I also suspect that Frodo's "I'll kick you very hard to make sure!" in this chapter, when he finds out that Sam had overheard what he said to Gildor, might have a bit of this embarrassment about "saying too much" in it - he spoke to Gildor about "my faithful Sam". I'm not sure he's have said that to Sam's face!
As for Gildor not saying where Bilbo is, I think he was respecting Bilbo's privacy, and not Gandalf's secrecy.
There's really no way of knowing what Gildor's motives were, since it's never followed up. But we will hear in Rivendell that Bilbo had thought about going back to the Shire and that Gandalf and Elrond had dissuaded him. So I don't get the impression that Bilbo was too concerned about keeping his whereabouts a secret from Frodo. If Gildor chose not to tell, it seems unlikely that it was because Bilbo had asked him not to. It seems to me more like the typical reticence of the Elves. Like Gandalf, they are very careful about the knowledge they choose to impart.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Nerdanel
Ossiriand
Nov 24 2007, 8:54pm
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Sam and the Gaffer aren't lawyers
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If Sam tells the Gaffer "I'm moving to Crickhollow" when he knows he's going on to Rivendell, that's a lie.
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Nerdanel
Ossiriand
Nov 24 2007, 8:56pm
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I imagine it was their exploits
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in the Scouring, not their adventures with Frodo, that made Merry and Pippin leading members of their families if they weren't already. But they wouldn't have to be major players for tongues to wag when they go missing.
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 24 2007, 9:35pm
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We don't know what Sam says to the Gaffer.
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Like Farmer Maggot, the Gaffer could put two and two together pretty well by himself. I can imagine his conversation with Sam sounding something like Maggot's conversation with Frodo. The Gaffer might have said something like "I am not asking you to tell me anything you have a mind to keep to yourself; but I see you [or Mr. Frodo] are in some kind of trouble." And Sam might have acknowledged as much without saying anything he was not at liberty to reveal. There is no evidence that Sam lied to the Gaffer, or that Tolkien condoned a lie.
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squire
Gondolin
Nov 24 2007, 10:44pm
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Another hobbit or two gone missing? Not to worry. In a year and a day we can sell their effects to their relatives!
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Won't the sudden disappearance of Merry and Pippin attract more notice than Frodo's departure ever could have gotten? What happened to secrecy? Speculate on what Merry and Pippin might be doing/have done to mitigate the shock of their own vanishing?
Tolkien laid the groundwork for this in The Hobbit, for which we are still reading a part-sequel.
It was often said (in other families) that long ago one of the Took ancestors must have taken a fairy wife. That was, of course, absurd, but certainly there was still something not entirely hobbit-like about them, - and once in a while members of the Took-clan would go and have adventures. They discreetly disappeared, and the family hushed it up; (Hobbit. p. 2)
"Dear me!" [Bilbo] went on. "Not the Gandalf who was responsible for so many quiet lads and lasses going off into the Blue for mad adventures. Anything from climbing trees to visiting Elves - or sailing in ships, sailing to other shores!" (Hobbit, p. 3)
He had arrived back in the middle of an auction! There was a large notice in black and red hung on the gate, stating that on June the Twenty-second Messrs. Grubb, Grubb, and Bun-owes would sell by auction the effects of the late Bilbo Baggins Esquire, of Bag-End, Underhill, Hobbiton. ... In short Bilbo was "Presumed Dead," and not everybody that said so was sorry to find the presumption wrong. (Hobbit, ending)
Tolkien has established (granted, in The Hobbit, not this book) that young hobbits, especially those of the families of our heroes, do run off for adventures, typically never to be seen again. He also clears up what people thought of Merry and Pippin's disappearance, at the end of The Lord of the Rings:
'Bless me! It's Master Merry, to be sure, and all dressed up for fighting!' said old Hob. 'Why, they said you was dead! Lost in the Old Forest by all accounts. I'm pleased to see you alive after all!' (RotK, VI, Ch. 8)
Farmer Cotton came up close and stared at [Sam] in the twilight. 'Well!' he exclaimed. 'The voice is right, and your face is no worse than it was, Sam. But I should a' passed you in the street in that gear. You've been in foreign parts, seemingly. We feared you were dead.' (RotK, VI, Ch. 8)
Obviously, a lack of curiosity about the fate of missing hobbits is a tradition in the Shire! And I assume Merry and Pippin knew this, and took advantage of it. We might also note that the Gaffer, at least, regards Frodo's move to Buckland as a move off the face of the earth, in his interview with the Black Rider. The parochialism of the pre-modern farm village is accurately captured here. And in the numerous fairy-tales and folk-tales about young men going on adventures that Tolkien is invoking here, the heroes never seem to worry about what people at home will think of their disappearance, either.
I for one would rather not think about the kind of guilt that Merry and Pippin might experience at the hands of their mothers, when they return. Unless, of course, like Frodo and Sam and every other hero in Tolkien, their mothers are already dead.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 25 2007, 10:10am
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if the Gaffer has (or even wants to have) any idea about what Sam will be doing while he's away. He prefers not to know things:"Don't go getting mixed up in the business of your betters, or you'll land in trouble too big for you." (This whole issue of keeping secrets, or keeping people in ignorance, casts a long shadow through the book, I'm thinking, now we come to look at it.)
I think squire's answer really sums it up: "We might also note that the Gaffer, at least, regards Frodo's move to Buckland as a move off the face of the earth, in his interview with the Black Rider. The parochialism of the pre-modern farm village is accurately captured here."
Whether Sam said "Crickhollow" or "Rivendell" or even "Mordor", they would sound much the same to the Gaffer - they are just queer places, completely outside the realm of his imagination. His son, as someone pointed out, is an adult and can go where he wants - and anyway, I think the Gaffer would accept that going where your job takes you is not something to complain about. Whether Sam's been doing his job well is all he's interested in when the travellers get back: "And I hope my Sam's behaved hisself and given satisfaction?" He can make nothing of Sam's story of "chasing Black Men up mountains", and really isn't interested. But a missing weskit, now, that's something he can understand!
I can imagine [the Gaffer's] conversation with Sam sounding something like Maggot's conversation with Frodo.
Maggot sees Frodo is in trouble because the evidence is in front of him, but evidence of the trouble is kept from the Gaffer. Probably just as well, because if he'd known there was trouble about, he might have reacted differently to the Black Rider and given the game away.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Nov 25 2007, 10:12am)
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 25 2007, 2:40pm
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Fair enough. My point is that there was no need to lie./
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 6 2007, 2:44am
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"There is no evidence ... that Tolkien condoned a lie."
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Someone should investigate this question in relation to Tolkien's comments on Sir Gawain and the Green Knight in his long lecture of 1953 that is printed in The Monsters and the Critics and Other Essay. As I recall, that essay concerns the issue of what exactly Gawain confessed to the priest, after receiving the lady's girdle: I remember Tolkien was indignant at one scholar's claim that Gawain lies in confession.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 6 2007, 2:50am
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so that he could finish his degree; it's in one of his letters. I think Carpenter says his family strongly pressured him to enlist sooner.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 6 2007, 2:55am
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In the Foreword ("Concerning Pipeweed") we are told that "Meriadoc Brandybuck" was "later Master of Buckland", and in "The Shadow of the Past", we are told that Frodo's friends include "Merry Brandybuck (his real name was Meriadoc, but that was seldom remembered)". I'm not sure we learn as much of Pippin. In any case, it's an amazingly sharp reader who picks up on that first time through.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 6 2007, 5:44am
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I for one would rather not think about the kind of guilt that Merry and Pippin might experience at the hands of their mothers, when they return. Unless, of course, like Frodo and Sam and every other hero in Tolkien, their mothers are already dead.
Tolkien doesn't say, at least not in the family trees.
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