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What a Dragon thinks about the Movie - "The Hobbit" Part 2 (final post)

tolkienreborn
Bree


Dec 23 2012, 12:48am

Post #1 of 19 (460 views)
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What a Dragon thinks about the Movie - "The Hobbit" Part 2 (final post) Can't Post

Well I wrote up a whole thing about it.. but yeah the server for some odd reason crashed - sorry for double posting in advanced. (lost the previous post)
Hopefully this answers all the questions in my first post - Just want to make sure people read my response in full and going into further details.

I wanted to say that first off yes I am a Dragon - but not the way dragons are written in Tolkien books or others.
Guess think of it as a Human looking creature but isn't from your world and that world is different or similar in some ways to earth.

Now regarding why I don't like the hobbit is mostly cause it is mainstream - It shows an "Evil Dragon" and the Hero's Journey is the same plot that you see in most stories. Yes most Books the Dragon is evil.. yes some blame tolkien for being a christian. But I wouldn't hold it against him just yet.
I will explain further.. but first.

Here are some examples of stuff I do enjoy:
a book called
"Dragons at war" by Gordon r dickson
The Bazil broketail series.

An anime movie called "Dragon Century" please look these up and enjoy and let me know what you think if you havn't seen them already.
They arn't your typical stories.

Now regarding the religious text stuff since some people on this forum wanted to get into discussing Tolkien being christian.
Most people who study ancient text religious stuff will understand this.
Eve wasn't the first women created. Plus many other creatures were created by "God" technically before mankind otherwise why would they be in the bible? - That including Dragon, Angels, and Demons.
Now from what i've read - Lilith was the first women created for Adam.
Now I hope some women are reading this very carefully, the reason why adam didn't take her is because Lilith refused to become subservient to Adam.
She then went after an Archangel named Samael - who could take on the form of a Serpent and mated with him.
Samael is also technically the serpent in the Adam and Eve Story.
Course many will argue this was Satan, but for now lets just call it a Serpent or Dragon (Evil) oh yes so evil...for tricking Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge, or you can look at it this way. Keep an Open mind beyond this part - unless you wish to eat the blue pill. *Quoting from the movie the matrix*

Now this is what I would have asked Tolkien and I am curious what all you will say to this response.
"What if the snake never told Eve or tempted her?"

Now look at this from an Alien or Artificial viewpoint. If mankind never gained knowledge they would still be stuck in a place considered to be perfection.
But is it really perfection or to some this could be considered Hell.

Cause you see how can you know anything without no knowledge or sense things or understand emotions when there is no death or happyness.
I get into this very much in my book, because I love to study how the Spirit (Soul) takes on different forms.

You see the problem is this... if the Serpent never asked or maybe was trying to help mankind learn the truth.
You would have never been born or free.. Mankind would still be stuck (Trapped) in that Program or Artificial Ball. I like to call it.. cause I don't know to me.
The Garden of Eden sounds like an Artificial Simulation or small place where perfection isn't really what it seems.

Now I would have loved to see Tolkien face or hear what he would have to say to that.

Now regarding a True Story -

Once upon a time back in 1952 in Russia there was a Lonely Mountain. Not the type you would think would be in fairy tales.. this mountain was called
"Death Mountain"
Nine experience hikers - went up into this mountain region and had to stay the night because of the strange weather.
10 days went by and the crew never returned. So the Soviet government sent a team to find them. But what the investigators found was unlike anything they have found before.
The Soviet investigators determined only that "a compelling unknown force" had caused the deaths
Access to the area was barred for skiers and other adventurers for three years after the incident.
In my opinion something attacked from either inside or outside the tent, giving the hikers no choice but to flee without the necessary items for survival (boots clothing even their skis which would have allowed for a faster escape. Most the hikers seem to have ran into the cold snow with socks on or bare feet. The bodies were discovered near a large cedar remnants of a fire nearby, Three attempting to return to camp (no doubt for clothing to stem hypothermia and gain a real chance of escape) while four moved down a stream toward civilization (found some months later) The three attempting to return to camp suffered injuries that were not explainable through any known force, including aging, orange skin, and white hair. The incident remained secret until 1990 and still contains withheld information.
Further information from the cover up seem to indicate the weapon used on the people did not harm the tree's or the snow or ground around the bodies.

Now this incident makes smaug look like a puppy in my opinion. Cause the bodies further description indicated one was missing a tongue the others looked like they were torched by some weapon but like I said, the weapon didn't seem to harm nature only the targets.
No foot prints indicating a creature was running meaning whatever this thing was flying or wasn't touching the ground.

If you wish to look into it please refer to the - "Dyatlov Pass incident."
The Russian Government tried to cover it up but people saw the bodies and the investigators refused to write off fake reports and resigned.

Now do I have your attention? Do you see why I am angry?
I hope I covered both subjects you were arguing about - Religion can be a touchy subject as well as the body (avatar) or the way a creature looks.
Also discussing strange stories which maybe have truth to them after all or even real monsters lurking underground or in the sky.

Frankly I think if the world was filled with people questioning the human flesh and looking beyond it - you wouldn't have racism or other silly discussions.
Plus if everyone looked extremely different - would racism be an issue? Especially if you could understand the person you are hurting or feel the pain you give them?
Now that would make an interesting world I must say..

Anyways back to writing and opening up holes I shouldn't ... follow the white dragon. ;)



Bombadil
Half-elven


Dec 23 2012, 12:57am

Post #2 of 19 (221 views)
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Namarie.../// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Dec 23 2012, 1:03am

Post #3 of 19 (239 views)
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Uh huh [In reply to] Can't Post

I consider myself an elf at heart, because I love nature and the fine arts, and I'm very shy of other humans, and dislike those that are rude, nasty, self-centered and lazy. Give me a good book, an instrument to play or some music to listen to and I'm content.
Just a question, but if you don't like The Hobbit (which is a really good book by the way, and in much mythology dragons are evil, just like vampires don't sparkle.) But why post this on a forum that it dedicated to The Hobbit? If you don't like it, why post it here where there are people who absolutely love it?


(This post was edited by Ziggy Stardust on Dec 23 2012, 1:05am)


tolkienreborn
Bree


Dec 24 2012, 2:35am

Post #4 of 19 (229 views)
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Reasons [In reply to] Can't Post

People explain why they don't like things on other forums.

Also are you saying just because one mythology exist - we should write the same stories over and over again? (Twilight made a lot of money no?) Since you seem to refer to it.
Frankly I think people want to see something new - not the same stories. They get old really fast for me and really I can't read anymore fantasy or science fiction because it is mostly the same "Hero's Journey" problem like I described before.

So why post on a fan forum? I give my reasons

Just I feel my stories and what others have written are by far better then what Tolkien has ever written.

Even if I wrote a story about my real life - many probably would think its fiction.


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Dec 27 2012, 1:22am

Post #5 of 19 (196 views)
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Yes, but [In reply to] Can't Post

Twilight may have made money, but that doesn't make it good. Do you know how many people really hate Twilight and are tired of the sparkly, romantic vampires? People want the evil sadistic vampires that were told of in legends. People are waiting for a Dracula-like Messiah. You don't have to like Tolkien, but if it were not for him, we wouldn't have half the fantasy books out there. You may have your reasons, but this is a Tolkien-related forum. People here are into Tolkien's works including The Hobbit. If you don't like his works, take your views to a forum that is not for Tolkien, they will be more interested in what you are saying. People here like Tolkien, and don't want to discuss why you don't like him. I'm just saying, man. I think you need to chill out and possibly take your views elsewhere. No one wants any trouble on here.


tolkienreborn
Bree


Dec 27 2012, 11:31pm

Post #6 of 19 (168 views)
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Eye of the Beholder [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting - you see to you it isn't good, but to many fans of Twilight it is good. Yet I am sure people express why they didn't like some of the storyline, characters or books.
So yes I don't like Tolkien - so I can express that if I want.
You see forums are about expressing ones opinion. Not everyone wants the same stories told to them over and over again. Frankly I find a hero's journey storyline to be boring.
If you like being told the same story over and over again be my guest. If you want a forum where everyone is saying the same thing over and over again.
Then why are you here reading this? Why read "oh I really liked this story" Again I really don't see how that makes a discussion interesting when you have the same point of view. If you find that amazingly entertaining more power to you.

huh..You really think Tolkien is the messiah of writing? Look if Tolkien didn't exist Fantasy would still be the same. You forget about all the other fantasy writers before Tolkien.
1887?- Alice in wonderland and many others like mythology. You do know when Tolkien published the hobbit right? "21 September 1937"
Also most critics and people didn't really care for the hobbit and only got into "lord of the rings" - it became big when people started running around and writing "Frodo Lives!" on walls.
So your comments are highly laughable..

Just because many are into Tolkien doesn't mean others cannot express there opinions.
So I would suggest you get off the internet if you can't handle Criticism or different points of view.

I am not angry - frankly those who are angry and express anger live another 2 years according to science.
I think you really need to stop praising Tolkien and know there will always be a better writers or someone who has a better imagination.
I have tons of books and it doesn't look like many readers get on these forums otherwise they would probably back up what I am saying right now.


(This post was edited by tolkienreborn on Dec 27 2012, 11:31pm)


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Dec 28 2012, 2:37am

Post #7 of 19 (175 views)
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Actually, all opinions are welcome here [In reply to] Can't Post

and we're not in the habit of telling people to take their views to other forums. It's against our Terms of Service, and will not be tolerated.


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Dec 28 2012, 3:43am

Post #8 of 19 (170 views)
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Forgot about this [In reply to] Can't Post

I forgot it was in the rules, and I wasn't trying to shoot down the person's opinion. I just became a little suspicous that they were just trolling. I just figured since this was such a pro-Tolkien site, they were better off speaking on an anti-Tolkien (I figured since everyone on here is into Tolkien) and I was curious as to why someone who doesn't seem to like Tolkien is on a Tolkien related site. I didn't mean to cause any trouble (like I said, I don't want any trouble nor do I want to be the cause of it.) It's just I've seen this type of thing happen on other forums and just thought that the poster was trolling or trying to cause a stir. As Bombadil said, Namarie. I'm out. I don't want to cause trouble.


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Dec 28 2012, 6:33pm

Post #9 of 19 (168 views)
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Any time you think there's a problem [In reply to] Can't Post

your best bet is to contact an admin - either through the Private Message function or on the Feedback board. We can evaluate the situation and take appropriate action. Thanks.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Dec 28 2012, 9:53pm

Post #10 of 19 (178 views)
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I have to disagree with you on this point... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Look if Tolkien didn't exist Fantasy would still be the same. You forget about all the other fantasy writers before Tolkien.
1887?- Alice in wonderland and many others like mythology. You do know when Tolkien published the hobbit right? "21 September 1937"
Also most critics and people didn't really care for the hobbit and only got into "lord of the rings" - it became big when people started running around and writing "Frodo Lives!" on walls.



Nonetheless, Tolklien had a tremendous impact on how fantasy stories would be published in the decades to follow. The professor popularized high fantasy in the same way that Robert E. Howard and others did for sword-and-sorcery stories in the pulp magazines, and brought it into the mainstream. Were there weaknesses in his writing style? Sure, but isn't that true of every writer?

Frankly I find Joseph Campbell and his "Hero's Journey" to be a bit of an over-rated concept. If it can be used to describe all stories than it is essentially meaningless. Every heroic fantasy story does not have to follow the same beats as those that have come before. Some to, only to intentionally turn the conventions on their heads or to give them new life by adding a twist.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


tolkienreborn
Bree


Dec 28 2012, 11:47pm

Post #11 of 19 (136 views)
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not true [In reply to] Can't Post

Not all Stories follow the Hero's Journey concept - the problem is people seem to write in the same pattern.
Just imagine of all music had the same beat.

Sure I am not debating Tolkien surely helped popularize fantasy - I am just saying the writers and himself didn't help themselves by doing the same hero's journey storyline.
I will post an example of what I mean, in a different topic.


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Dec 29 2012, 2:02am

Post #12 of 19 (159 views)
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Alice in Wonderland is not a fantasy [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a political satire. Mythology was not a fantasy - many people believed the stories to be true - it was the basis for their religion.

Tolkien had a significant impact on all fantasy written after his books were published, but he was influenced by the Norse mythology, not any previous fantasy writers.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Dec 29 2012, 8:22pm

Post #13 of 19 (142 views)
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They aren't mutually exclusive [In reply to] Can't Post

Alice's Adventures in Wonderland can be (and is) both a fantasy story and political satire. For that matter, so is Gulliver's Travels.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


squire
Valinor


Dec 29 2012, 10:52pm

Post #14 of 19 (134 views)
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Tolkien's influences are hard to pin down, but they weren't just restricted to medieval sagas [In reply to] Can't Post

The question of earlier writers' influence on Tolkien is a lively one. I don't think we can say that "[no] previous fantasy writers" influenced Tolkien. This is especially true because in his own time no one used "fantasy" as we currently use it, to describe a literary genre. Tolkien himself preferred the term "heroic romance" for his Middle-earth fiction.

What is known, because he gladly admitted the fact, is that Tolkien had broader tastes in literary entertainment than just Norse mythology. Like many scholars, he was able to find relaxation and amusement away from the office. I think most people would admit that his taste in contemporary fiction is as strong an influence on his stories as is his deep knowledge of medieval sources and languages. He happily read adventure fiction, science fiction, thrillers, and other middle-brow genre fiction.

In various interviews and letters he named the authors H. G. Wells, H. Rider Haggard, J. M. Barrie, Lewis Carroll, S. R. Crockett, J. H. Shorthouse, Algernon Blackwood, John Buchan, Lord Dunsany, Edgar Rice Burroughs, David Lindsay, Alexander MacDonald, Edith Nesbitt, and Joseph O'Neill as ones he had read, with greater or lesser enjoyment. It's true that we may not have read or heard of these authors, but if one looks into the matter, there are a host of connections between their stories and The Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit or the Silmarillion tales - ranging from details of naming or appearance, to ways of writing about settings or incidents, to larger themes like exploration, new worlds, or encounters with strange beings.

Tolkien was a highly original writer, but he did not grow up in a vacuum bottle filled with Norse myths and nothing but Norse myths. He did not invent "fantasy" out of nothing, although he did, in many sense, invent it. And as you say his impact on all subsequent writers in this genre has been, indeed, significant!



squire online:
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Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
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tolkienreborn
Bree


Dec 30 2012, 3:48am

Post #15 of 19 (140 views)
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Not true sadly [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually if you want the truth here it is for you
"The history of modern fantasy literature is usually said to begin with George MacDonald, the Scottish author of such novels as The Princess and the Goblin and Phantastes (1858), the latter of which is widely considered to be the first fantasy novel ever written for adults.
MacDonald was a major influence on both J. R. R. Tolkien and C. S. Lewis. The other major fantasy author of this era was William Morris, a popular English poet who wrote several novels in the latter part of the century, including The Well at the World's End."

So again what I am writing has no influence from Tolkien. I will leave it at that or any of the author I consider to be great.
Be original think outside the box.. sadly not many want to do that and want to copy and continue to use "Hero's Journey" type stories.

Like I said.. listening to the same music eventually gets old and sadly - so have books which depict Dragons as all evil or the ones who do depict them good are just children stories.
I just don't care for them or will avoid it.

-Story Ends-

So sure we can sit here and debate - who wrote what first - personally to me.. I could careless if Tolkien was the first.
I think his story is horrible and nothing original because it follows the hero's journey pattern.

I gave an example of what I would have liked if Tolkien didn't follow that.. then I would think he is amazing and be a fan.

I am the opposite and nothing can change that cause Tolkien is dead.


(This post was edited by tolkienreborn on Dec 30 2012, 3:57am)


Kassandros
Rohan


Dec 30 2012, 9:27am

Post #16 of 19 (131 views)
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Why do you come to a Tolkien website to look for non-Tolkien fantasy? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am really confused about your purpose here. Why have you chosen TORN? What do you hope to gain from a website that loves Tolkien's books and the movies that have been adapted from them?

I mean, there's something to be said for finding typical fantasy stories to be cliche or not liking how Tolkien portrays dragons, but what do you hope to gain by posting here? Why not post to a general fantasy website or a dragon-themed website or even a dragonkin or otherkin website?

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...


tolkienreborn
Bree


Jan 1 2013, 8:44am

Post #17 of 19 (112 views)
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sorry for the confusion [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry for the confusion - well to understand what a person is thinking - sometime it is good to question or get others to think.

I was hoping there might be some light in the darkness - if that makes any sense to you.
Tolkien to me is like being in the Darkness and for you possibly Tolkien being the Light.
So sometimes it is good to ask the Darkness and learn from it or understand why it enjoys the light.

What I don't understand is Tolkien's Hate towards dragons. - I think this is mostly due to his Religion. I love to debate Religion, politics, the paranormal etc.
Again I find it interesting if Tolkien Loved Dragons or wasn't religious how his story might have been different.

How would it have been written - Do you wonder?
Being a Dragon or Otherkin - I think outside the box and try to understand the wiring under the mainframe if that makes any sense.
So being this is a place full of Fans of Tolkien.

I thought I might ask - but I haven't god a response or story. So it makes me wonder if there are any creative fans on this site. (who can think outside the box)
But maybe that challenge is too hard for most cause that means they have to make Dragons good. When most seem to think Dragons are bad because of most mythology or European Religious Fantasy.

That is why I love Philosophy or Stories that make you think - Tolkiens work really never got me to think sadly.
To others I am sure they will disagree as his writings were for mystical knight stuff..

Heck I even have a friend at work who refuses to even read or see the hobbit - why you make ask?
Because he is not into Fantasy or as I will quote him "Knight, mystic stuff"

I'd be curious to know what you recommend - if anything


Magpie
Immortal


Jan 1 2013, 5:42pm

Post #18 of 19 (89 views)
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lots of people have recommended lots of dragon fantasy to you [In reply to] Can't Post

You could check your post history if you have forgotten all the people who reached out to reply and suggest books.

You hated every single one of the suggestions (when you bothered to reply at all). Decidedly. With sound effects at times. I think your reaction to my suggestion was, "bleh!"

The only time you have ever said 'thanks' was to thank people for reading your posts, sarcastically as in 'thanks for nothing,' or for being encouraged to write your own fiction. You have never thanked anyone for the time they took to reply to you or the suggestions they made. To those people, who kindly took some care to respond, you only rebuffed them... and at times, a bit rudely, imo.

Now, we have lots of people on these boards who are very well read. They are intelligent. They have a wide range of writing and genre styles they enjoy.

If none of them - in the four years you been here - can satisfy you, then I think you have exhausted this site and the members on it as a useful source for dragon fantasy fiction.

You can keep asking till you're blue in the face but at some point, it starts to seem as if the point of asking has nothing to do with actually getting a satisfactory answer.


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
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tolkienreborn
Bree


Jan 2 2013, 10:44pm

Post #19 of 19 (115 views)
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They didn't follow the rules [In reply to] Can't Post

The suggestions did not fall under the examples, I gave first of all or the rules.

Sure you could thank someone for giving you the wrong advice - I would like to see that personally myself.

Like asking for directions on the road and someone gives you the wrong directions - I think you'd be very angry and not turn around and come back to the spot you found them and thank them.

Now you said I hated the suggestions. the word hate is a strong word. I did not hate the suggestions, they weren't the correct answers is all.
So thank you for giving me the suggestions, but they weren't what I was looking for.

That isn't being rude - it is just showing you that you are being rude in return. Look in the mirror how you responded to this post.
You don't speak for the whole community...by the way
Does this person "Magpie" speak for you??? *Waits for a response*


........

Now where did I say people on this site aren't intelligent - all I did was challenge them to write something or find something which related to the parameters to what was going on in the story. That beings "A dragon being the main characters - Dragons not being evil or killed in the story and the story not being a children book."
Since you say it has been so long.. they obviously are not up for the challenge and that is okay. Cause I know if certain humans or writers ended up on some other planet and had to think up a story where no humans are involved in the story. They would have a hard time coming up with something amazing and original and would have to copy "The Hero's Journey" or write something similar to what Tolkien has already written. Do you not find that sad or boring?

Do you enjoy reading the same book over and over again? Would you like to be told the same story over and over again? Nothing new or interesting..

Like my philosophy teacher lectured to a bunch of students and old people - "You aren't brave enough to think outside the box", "that you will continue to think like a machine and just copy others".

It is really sad for me to be saying that.. maybe you can prove me wrong. Since this community is intelligent I believe, but they just don't want to think outside the box is the problem.

So saying I can't be satisfied isn't true.. there are some who have - but they aren't famous authors.
Actually some of the best music, stories, art are the stuff - mainstream media or some cult following are not following.


(This post was edited by tolkienreborn on Jan 2 2013, 10:52pm)

 
 

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