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Nerdanel
Ossiriand
Nov 20 2007, 1:53am
Post #1 of 31
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Chapter 5: A Conspiracy Unmasked I
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This week we are looking at Chapter 5: A Conspiracy Unmasked. This Chapter gives us our only view of Buckland and one last comfy night in the Shire, and reveals to Frodo and to us what very good friends Frodo has.
Having left Farmer Maggot, Frodo, Sam, Pippin and Merry head for the Ferry that will take them across the Brandywine River to Buckland.
The white bollards near the water's edge glimmered in the light of two lamps on high posts. . . . Merry led the pony over a gangway on to the ferry, and the others followed.
Now, before we even get started, a digression. When I was in Oxford last summer I saw this sign:
I had no idea what the sign could possibly mean and was sure I had never seen seen the word "bollards" before. I've since learned that a "bollard" is
a short vertical post typically found where large ships dock. While originally it only meant a post used on a quay for mooring, the word now also describes a variety of structures to control or direct road traffic. The term may be related to bole, meaning the lower trunk of a tree.
Here's a youtube clip of bollard porn, which has nothing to do with our chapter.
The other word that struck me this time round was "gangway." I recall yelling "Gangway!" as a child to warn people to get out of my way as I ran from one place to another, but now I have no idea why I thought this was the appropriate thing to shout.
Gangway means,
1: passageway; especially : a temporary way of planks
2 a: either of the sides of the upper deck of a ship
b: the opening by which a ship is boarded
c: gangplank
3 (British) : aisle
4 a: a cross aisle dividing the front benches from the backbenches in the British House of Commons
b: an aisle in the British House of Commons that separates government and opposition benches
5: a clear passage through a crowd —often used as an interjection
I assume Merry led the pony across a plank passageway and not through the middle of the House of Commons.
I've read LotR dozens of times, and it wasn't until I read it to prepare for this week that I noticed the word "bollards" or thought about the word "gangway" in this chapter. Do the rest of you habitual re-readers have the same experience? Do new words and images pop out at you, as if for the first time, even after all these years?
We are given a brief history of Buckland, established by Gorhendad Oldbuck, head of one of the oldest families in the Shire. He crossed the Brandywine River going east from the Shire and changed his name (and, apparently, the name of everything in sight) to Brandybuck, founding Buckland and its chief village Bucklebury on the thin strip of land between the Brandywine and the Old Forest and building Brandy Hall into the side of Buck Hill to house the large and growing Brandybuck family.
Apart from Gorhendad Oldbuck, all the hobbits we know of in history migrated from east to west. Why would Oldbuck have moved back east across the Brandywine to found Buckland? Why did the Shire historically expand east rather than west? Do we know of any other people in Middle Earth who moved east rather than west?
Looking east across the dark river from which only a few curls of mist were rising, the hobbits can see lamps twinkling and the glow of many red and yellow windows of Brandy Hall.
How does the sight of light shining through the windows of other people's houses in the night make you feel?
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Cactus Wren
Lindon
Nov 20 2007, 3:14am
Post #2 of 31
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I've read LotR dozens of times, and it wasn't until I read it to prepare for this week that I noticed the word "bollards" or thought about the word "gangway" in this chapter. Do the rest of you habitual re-readers have the same experience? Do new words and images pop out at you, as if for the first time, even after all these years? Oh, yes, frequently! There's so very much detail in this story, it's hard for me to understand how people can dismiss it with "Oh, I read that book years ago, I know all about it." (I want to tell them flatly, "No you don't!")
We are given a brief history of Buckland, established by Gorhendad Oldbuck, head of one of the oldest families in the Shire. He crossed the Brandywine River going east from the Shire and changed his name (and, apparently, the name of everything in sight) to Brandybuck, founding Buckland and its chief village Bucklebury on the thin strip of land between the Brandywine and the Old Forest and building Brandy Hall into the side of Buck Hill to house the large and growing Brandybuck family.
Apart from Gorhendad Oldbuck, all the hobbits we know of in history migrated from east to west. Why would Oldbuck have moved back east across the Brandywine to found Buckland? Why did the Shire historically expand east rather than west? Do we know of any other people in Middle Earth who moved east rather than west? It's always seemed to me that the hobbitic distrust of the Sea was a strong influence here. We were told away back in the Prologue that "the Sea became a word of fear among them, and a token of death, and they turned their faces away from the hills in the west." Danger and evil, in Middle-earth, seem largely to originate in the East; but the hobbits may have felt themselves to some extent trapped between the Eastern threat and the sea, with its ever-present dangers. At least the earth can be trusted to be there and to hold you up.
Looking east across the dark river from which only a few curls of mist were rising, the hobbits can see lamps twinkling and the glow of many red and yellow windows of Brandy Hall.
How does the sight of light shining through the windows of other people's houses in the night make you feel? I've done a lot of road travel at night, and I've always found the sight of lighted windows comforting and reassuring. I wonder if our hobbits have any thought in their minds, as they pass the windows of Brandy Hall, of what it will be like to spend weeks or months in utterly uninhabited places with never a lighted window in sight for night after night.
(Am I the only person who still wants to scoop up Sean Bean's voice and lick it off a spoon like chocolate sauce?)
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Penthe
Mithlond
Nov 20 2007, 3:22am
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We always used the term gangway as interchangeable with gangplank. I always imagine the ladder-like plank with a railing on both sides going from the jetty to a quite small boat, or those incredibly long step-like things coming down from cruise ships. I once walked across one to a submarine, which remains a highlight. But I never really thought of why we used the term 'gangway' to mean 'get out of the way'. Anyway, I imagine a simple plank-like thing that reaches across from the slope down to the river to the edge of the ferry so that people and ponies can board the ferry itself. I imagine the ferry more as a flattish pontoon than a row boat too.
It's funny how rereading introduces different emphasis isn't it? Do you think it's our brains craving novelty, or just that our understandings and preoccupations change over time.
With regard to the Bucklanders heading back over the Brandywine river it sounds to me like the result of a huff (with no textual evidence whatsoever). It wasn't an urge for exploration and new horizons, but just a wanting for one's own space - hence the rampant naming program. Perhaps the Bucklanders wished to be nearer Bree for some reason?
I think the lights shining from Brandy Hall are very important for Frodo. This is the place he had his childhood. We are taken from Bag End where he is an adult and in charge, to the lands where he was not adult, where he was not in control (as described by Farmer Maggot). His life in Hobbiton, in one sense, was already a kind of voluntary exile from his early life. He does not enter the hall, with it's attractive lights, and his larger exile begins almost immediately. We see that his childhood offers no refuge, that he cannot retreat into the past, even though that's what his cover story suggests to the other hobbits. The contrast is quite poignant for me.
I quite like cheese, you know.
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weaver
Gondolin
Nov 20 2007, 4:10am
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Well, that is certainly a new phrase I picked up -- the things you learn from hanging around this place...and that was a very educational video about what not to do around a rising bollard....
I have no great insightful comments to share -- except to say it looks like we are going to be in for an interesting week around here!
Weaver
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 20 2007, 5:56am
Post #5 of 31
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says that it's population pressure that founded Buckland, but he makes several other questionable interpretations elsewhere.
It's a good question why the Shire expanded east rather than west. The Hobbits of the Shire came from Breeland, of course...
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 20 2007, 5:58am
Post #6 of 31
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I've read LotR dozens of times, and it wasn't until I read it to prepare for this week that I noticed the word "bollards" or thought about the word "gangway" in this chapter. Do the rest of you habitual re-readers have the same experience? Do new words and images pop out at you, as if for the first time, even after all these years?
Absolutely. Here's an easy assignment for any discussion leader. Skim the chapter for unusual vocabulary, and you will find it every time, then you can ask questions about that vocabulary list.
Tolkien had a large vocabulary, and he wasn't afraid to use it. But the way he uses the words in context, I can usually guess at the meaning if I don't already know it. And when I do look up a word, I find that it was precisely the right word to use in that context. After all, what would you call bollards if you didn't call them bollards?
Apart from Gorhendad Oldbuck, all the hobbits we know of in history migrated from east to west. Why would Oldbuck have moved back east across the Brandywine to found Buckland? Why did the Shire historically expand east rather than west? Do we know of any other people in Middle Earth who moved east rather than west?
The Bucklanders remind me of the woodsmen of Mirkwood, and the woodsmen of Mirkwood remind me of the German tribes who lived between the Rhine and the Black Forest at the time of the Romans, and who fought quite well against the Roman legions. At the time of the Romans, by the way, the Black Forest was quite a bit larger than it is now, extending across southern Germany. But I suppose that doesn't really answer your question.
I suppose Oldbuck moved east because the lands to the east of the Shire were empty, except for some trees that needed cutting back. Of course he may not have realized that the trees would fight back! I would think the hobbits expanded all the time, but what made Buckland a separate sovereignty was its location across the river. And that may well have appealed to Oldbuck, who would not have to answer to anyone, or be responsible for anyone, if he moved across the river.
There are real-world counterparts in Europe, where various German peoples repeatedly attempted to expand to the east over the centuries, even though the trend was for people from central Asia to come sweeping into Europe from the east.
How does the sight of light shining through the windows of other people's houses in the night make you feel?
Well, it's a sneaky way of seeing how they decorated! But sure, it's a comforting sight.
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Morwen
Nargothrond
Nov 20 2007, 3:10pm
Post #7 of 31
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Bollards, gangways and lighted windows.
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I've read LotR dozens of times, and it wasn't until I read it to prepare for this week that I noticed the word "bollards" or thought about the word "gangway" in this chapter. Do the rest of you habitual re-readers have the same experience? Do new words and images pop out at you, as if for the first time, even after all these years?
I do remember yelling "gangway" as a child when I needed people to get out of my way, and I have no idea where I learned the word. I never connected my usage of it with Tolkien's use of the word in this chapter.
I think I just figured out the meaning of "bollards" from the context. It's easy enough to follow the story without knowing exactly what a bollard is, I never bothered to look it up. Those traffic bollards are scary! If I ever get to take my long hoped for trip to England I think I'll rely on public transportation.
Tolkien does love unusual and archaic words, and every now and then one jumps out at me.
Apart from Gorhendad Oldbuck, all the hobbits we know of in history migrated from east to west. Why would Oldbuck have moved back east across the Brandywine to found Buckland? Why did the Shire historically expand east rather than west? Do we know of any other people in Middle Earth who moved east rather than west?
Sauron moved east. But maybe that doesn't count.
How does the sight of light shining through the windows of other people's houses in the night make you feel?
Lighted windows are comforting and a bit lonely at the same time, at least when I'm walking alone in the dark. However, I like to leave a light on in my house when I know I'll be coming home after dark.
Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you; you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out.
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 20 2007, 3:21pm
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The Numenoreans moved east. Everyone from Beleriand who stayed in Middle-earth moved east after the War of Wrath. Galadriel moved east even more than most of the remaining High Elves, across the mountains to Lothlorien. So did Legolas's dad. The exiled dwarves from Moria moved east to the Lonely Mountain. But I must admit none of these examples are comforting, since they usually resulted from some disaster.
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Owlyross
Nargothrond
Nov 20 2007, 3:36pm
Post #9 of 31
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The best laid plans of Hobbits dinnae gang agley
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I've read LotR dozens of times, and it wasn't until I read it to prepare for this week that I noticed the word "bollards" or thought about the word "gangway" in this chapter. Do the rest of you habitual re-readers have the same experience? Do new words and images pop out at you, as if for the first time, even after all these years?
Definitely, there’s always something that jumps out at me, and one of the reasons I love re-reading the book. There’s just to much to take in all at once… Bollard is a common work in English but in terms of its meaning as a traffic directing measure. I’m familiar with it, along with gangway, although I suppose gangplank is more common… Interestingly, the etymology of bollard has the use as traffic control fixed to 1944, so Tolkien would definitely have used this in its nautical form, but at time of publication would have been aware of the growing new use of the word. Gangway is more interesting, “Gangway is O.E. gangweg "road, passage," and preserves the original sense of the word, as does gangplank (1846, Amer.Eng., replacing earlier gang-board).” It comes from the Old English Gong, meaning a journey or passage and is what to verb “to go” derives from. It’s also used in that sense by Robert Burns, as in “The best laid schemes o’ mice an’ men gang aft agley”.
Apart from Gorhendad Oldbuck, all the hobbits we know of in history migrated from east to west. Why would Oldbuck have moved back east across the Brandywine to found Buckland? Why did the Shire historically expand east rather than west? Do we know of any other people in Middle Earth who moved east rather than west?
I can’t think of anyone who moved East by choice… The exiled Noldorians had to travel East across the Helcaraxe to return to Middle Earth, but other than that, there does seem to a general Westward progreesion. Ah! The Witch King also moves east after defeat at Fornost, to dwell in Dol Guldur. Other people have also mentioned the fear of the sea, and the moving eastwards to return to their old home of Bree. Could there also be something sacred about the Western lands as they drew closer to Annuminas and Lake Evendim, old home of the Men of the North Kingdom?
How does the sight of light shining through the windows of other people's houses in the night make you feel?
Nosey, if I’m honest. But also reassured and safe.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Benjamin Franklin
The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
Horace Walpole (1717 - 1797)
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 20 2007, 4:33pm
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at the Bucklebury Ferry - I'd never noticed before that the "lights on high posts" are there from the book as well!
As Owlyross says, this is a common British word, so it's not something that stood out for me. I did notice how they are described as white and therefore showing up in the gloom. I think there are a few more descriptions like this - white stones at Tom B's for one, if I remember correctly. That's something I've found myself noticing now when I'm in England - it seems quite common to use white-painted stones or small wooden "bollards" to mark a driveway or the entrance to a country lane. They are a nice, easy, low-tech way to make something visible in the dark.
Apart from Gorhendad Oldbuck, all the hobbits we know of in history migrated from east to west. Why would Oldbuck have moved back east across the Brandywine to found Buckland? Why did the Shire historically expand east rather than west? Do we know of any other people in Middle Earth who moved east rather than west?
I'm trying to think whether this reflects something in the real history of the Anglo-Saxons, who did migrate from east (Northern Europe) to west (Britain). I don't know of any tribes that moved back, although I do know that some of the native Britons who were displaced by the Anglo-Saxons moved south across the English Channel and founded Britanny in northern France.
How does the sight of light shining through the windows of other people's houses in the night make you feel?
At a distance, the way they're described here, they somehow give me a sense of perfect, unattainable safety and warmth. Up close, where you can see right inside, they just make me feel nosey, like Owlyross! 
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Owlyross
Nargothrond
Nov 20 2007, 5:10pm
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Not the bollards that Tolkien uses, which would be more akin to what's described on this Wikipedia page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bollard with a larger top than bottom, to stop the mooring lines from coming loose.
So obviously Jackson thought immediately of the road-lining bollards, and not of the ship mooring bollards, even his mooring bollards are in the style of road bollards, as seen below.
http://www.framecaplib.com/...es/fotr/fotr0406.htm
The road bollards also have a use when it snows heavily, so you can see where the road should be, it's why they're usually painted red or another bold colour.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Benjamin Franklin
The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
Horace Walpole (1717 - 1797)
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 20 2007, 5:34pm
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Which might be sufficiently wide to prevent a rope from slipping off. But how big are those film-ferry bollards? They look much larger in your linked image of the fleeing hobbits than they do in FFH's image of the Black Rider, moreso than the difference in size of the figures would suggest.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 20 2007, 6:42pm
Post #13 of 31
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that you only need slim bollards for a light ferry.
So obviously Jackson thought immediately of the road-lining bollards, and not of the ship mooring bollards
Jackson uses the regular ship-mooring bollards at the Grey Havens. The ones at the ferry are more like road bollards, I agree. But maybe that's because a ferry is more or less an extension of the road - you can walk or lead your pony at walking pace across the "gangway" ("gang" = "go on foot" in German, don't know about Old English) and continue your journey. (The movie Black Rider illustrates why you do need to "go on foot", since he tries to gallop across, and his horse nearly ends up in the river!)
I wonder what kind of bollards Tolkien had in mind?
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 20 2007, 8:55pm
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 20 2007, 8:56pm
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Gollum's ancestors moved east.
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They crossed the mountains to Eriador, then crossed back to settle by the Anduin.
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Nov 20 2007, 10:35pm
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I've read LotR dozens of times, and it wasn't until I read it to prepare for this week that I noticed the word "bollards" or thought about the word "gangway" in this chapter. Do the rest of you habitual re-readers have the same experience? Do new words and images pop out at you, as if for the first time, even after all these years?
From time to time I find new words popping out at me, often words I haven't bothered to look up on earlier readings. I cannot remember ever reading the word "bollard"; thank you for alerting me:)
Gangway - which I thought of as gangplank the first times I read LoTR - is one of those words which probably early on had me sensing an intimate kinship between Tolkien's English and my native tongue. In my own language the equivalent word means passageway, or more frequently "pedestrian lane".
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a.s.
Doriath
Nov 21 2007, 2:37am
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"make way for officers, you lowly squids!!"
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We used to shout this as kids, too! "Gangway" comes from the shout that went up on shipboard when an officer approached on a narrow passageway. In fact, if I'm not mistaken (and I might very well be, if so, I wait to stand corrected!) the name of the passage or walkway took its name from the shouting, and not vice versa.
Here's an explanation of the term from Leatherneck Magazine:
gangway: A ship's passageway. A term used to inform juniors to give way to seniors in ships' passageways, and particularly when going up and down ladders. The command can be given by anyone who sees an officer or civilian dignitary approaching a gangway, ladder or passage, which is blocked.
Lights shining out from someone's window as I pass at night make me feel homesick for something I often can't define. Just a general feeling of passively viewing what looks like (but may not be) a safe haven of warmth and security and companionship and human cohabitation makes me long to find a light-filled room of my own.
a.s. (after all, what's the use in being a retired Navy wife if you can't answer shipboard trivia questions!!)
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
(This post was edited by a.s. on Nov 21 2007, 2:38am)
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Kethry
Menegroth
Nov 21 2007, 10:43pm
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So I’m finally focusing on discussing, and I’m even commenting on the current week, instead of thinking I have to catch up. Though it seems that I really need to go back and read what I missed.
I've read LotR dozens of times, and it wasn't until I read it to prepare for this week that I noticed the word "bollards" or thought about the word "gangway" in this chapter. Do the rest of you habitual re-readers have the same experience? Do new words and images pop out at you, as if for the first time, even after all these years?
Yes, nearly every time. Though what I notice depends on my mood at the time, or what’s going on. Sometimes it’s a real “ah-hah!” moment, and sometimes it’s just a passage that stands out as particularly poignant. I was reading the appendices last month when N.E.Brigand was discussing the beginning and the foreward and raised the point of corrections and misprints. Only then, because it was on my mind, did I notice a spelling error. Of course, now when I’m looking for it I can’t quite find it to point it out.
We are given a brief history of Buckland, established by Gorhendad Oldbuck, head of one of the oldest families in the Shire.
I really like this little aside into the history of Buckland. It reminds me that there are so many details, little bits of history, that have been carefully out into the story. JRRT could have very easily skipped this little section and just let us get to Crickhollow, but he put this in. It also reminds me that there is so much history to this Middle-Earth, and that each little place and town and ruin has a story behind it, but we just can’t know it. When reading this section, I could almost wish that the story would just sweep us away into the history of the Oldbucks, and just why Gorhendad decided to move, and the fortunes of the new Brandybuck family. I wonder about life in Brandy Hall. I wonder how they could live in the warren that it’s become, what with all the extended relations. What’s the story behind Crickhollow? Because, of course, there is one. Why was it built? What relation needed that separate home? Or, what guest would merit the building of his own guest house, away from the family hall?
And then the aside is over, and we’re brought right back to Frodo and his troubles and worries. Then I get involved in the main story all over again, and I forget my wonderings about Buckland.
Apart from Gorhendad Oldbuck, all the hobbits we know of in history migrated from east to west.
Actually, according to the Tale of Years, the entry for Third Age 1356 says “About this time the Stoors leave the Angle [Dunland], and some return to Wilderland.” Some of them at least had to return to the Vales of Anduin to become the ancestors of Smeagol. (As I write this I am fully aware that others have commented on this post, and I’m sure someone else has already found this reference.)
Why would Oldbuck have moved back east across the Brandywine to found Buckland? Why did the Shire historically expand east rather than west? Do we know of any other people in Middle Earth who moved east rather than west?
I haven’t actually ever thought about the migrations of Middle-Earth so much. There are several instances of peoples moving in directions other than east to west, though. When the Elves left Valinor (but you can say that’s exile instead of migration). The drowning of Beleriand caused another forced migration, as did the destruction of Numenor. During the First Age, there was lots of back and forth movement, when Men moved west, and some Elves moving back east towards Greenwood. But migration is generally caused by one of two things: escape from dangerous surroundings, or the search for more space.
"Any kind of plan where you lose your hat... is a bad plan."
'But it does not seem that I can trust anyone,' said Frodo.
Sam looked at him unhappily. 'It all depends on what you want,' put in Merry. 'You can trust us to stick to you through thick and thin - to the bitter end. And you can trust us to keep any secret of yours - closer than you keep it yourself. But you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone, and go off without a word. We are your friends, Frodo.'
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 21 2007, 10:56pm
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The Noldor left Valinor of their own accord, though they were forbidden to return after the Prophecy of the North. Still, your responses and others have me wondering: was Gorhendad expelled? Did some dishonor fall on the Oldbucks? How did the Thainship pass from that family to the Tooks -- what happend back in 1340?
And what is this information, about the historically prominent Brandybucks and upstart Tooks, meant to tell us about Merry and Pippin?
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Kethry
Menegroth
Nov 21 2007, 11:40pm
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Actually, I don't think the journey of the Nolder really fits precisely into either category. There were a couple of reasons for leaving Valinor, weren't there? Feanor left to wage war on Morgoth, which is not escaping danger nor looking for room (which is merely my definition of migration). Others went more for the space, so they would be the migrants, I suppose. I guess I consider those who did not turn back when they had the chance as taking a voluntary exile upon themselves, even if they didn't primarily or originally leave to fight Morgoth.
As for Gorhendad, I would prefer to think that he left voluntarily instead of being expelled. But wouldn't that be interesting though, a little scandal, a few secrets? Maybe that's why he changed his name, to remove associations with Oldbuck? Though if he was allowed to stay unmolested in his new country, I can't imagine it was all that bad.
Oh, and the Thainship came from the Oldbucks, not the Brandybucks. Maybe when Gorhendad left the Shire, he left that title behind, to what was left of the Oldbucks (if there were any), who either died out or (more likely) intermarried into the Took clan.
"the historically prominent Brandybucks and upstart Tooks"
That seems to me to be the perfect way to start thinking of Merry and Pippin as they are at the time of this chapter. Merry being older, being a good deal more steady and sensible, from a solid family. And Pippin with his irrepressible enthusiasm, and his carefree attitude would probably exemplify the differences between the old and established Brandybucks and the emergence of the Tooks that sometimes produced those "strong characters of peculiar habits and even adventurous temperament".
"Any kind of plan where you lose your hat... is a bad plan."
'But it does not seem that I can trust anyone,' said Frodo.
Sam looked at him unhappily. 'It all depends on what you want,' put in Merry. 'You can trust us to stick to you through thick and thin - to the bitter end. And you can trust us to keep any secret of yours - closer than you keep it yourself. But you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone, and go off without a word. We are your friends, Frodo.'
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 21 2007, 11:48pm
Post #22 of 31
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Why didn't Gorhendad become Thain?
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Oh, and the Thainship came from the Oldbucks, not the Brandybucks. Excactly! From Appendix B:
2340 Isumbras I becomes thirteenth Thain, and first of the Took line. The Oldbucks occupy the Buck-land. So in 2340, Gorhendad Oldbuck is constrained to relinquish the Shire's top title to the Tooks, moves east, as seems never to happen for good reasons, and changes his name to Brandybuck.
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Kethry
Menegroth
Nov 22 2007, 4:23am
Post #23 of 31
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Occupy is an interesting word.
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Why not settled, or moved to, or populated? Why occupy? It makes me think more of a military move than a domestic one. Were there habitations there already that he had to take over? So many questions and speculations now.
"Any kind of plan where you lose your hat... is a bad plan."
'But it does not seem that I can trust anyone,' said Frodo.
Sam looked at him unhappily. 'It all depends on what you want,' put in Merry. 'You can trust us to stick to you through thick and thin - to the bitter end. And you can trust us to keep any secret of yours - closer than you keep it yourself. But you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone, and go off without a word. We are your friends, Frodo.'
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 22 2007, 8:31am
Post #24 of 31
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Or, what guest would merit the building of his own guest house, away from the family hall?
Reading your post right after a.s.'s post in another thread about Tolkien staying at New Lodge at Stonyhurst College makes me put two ideas together here.
New Lodge would be pretty much what the house at Crickhollow is - a small, independent house separate from the main hall of Stonyhurst. Stonyhurst College was originally the manor house of the Shireburn family, who were the squires of the adjoining village, Hurst Green. They too built quite a warren over the centuries, and it's certainly a big, rambling complex now, as you might expect now it's a private school.
I've no idea whether the dates work to make Stonyhurst and surrounding area even a candidate to have inspired these parts of the Shire. I expect similar combinations of things can be found all over England. Still, it echoes so very closely what Tolkien describes that you do have to wonder! (As I recall, it's the view from New Lodge that some people think is most likely thing to make a direct appearance in LotR - the view from the window over the kitchen-garden apparently matches the description of the view over the bean-rows from the window of Tom Bombadil's house!)
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Nerdanel
Ossiriand
Nov 23 2007, 10:02pm
Post #25 of 31
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A convincing explanation for Gorhendad's movements
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Can be found here as part of The Synopsis of the Lord of the Rings at the Tolkien Sarcasm Page.
Long ago, Gorhendad Oldbuck (Morrie's great-great-great-
grandfather, his great-great-uncle, or his third cousin once
removed, depending on which branch of the family tree you
trace) was the town drunk of Bywater. People called him all
kinds of names -- Drunkenbuck, Alebuck, and the like -- but the
name that stuck was Brandybuck. Unfortunately for him, he
lived at the time of the Shire's great experiment with
prohibition. Unhappy with the dry state of affairs, he moved
across the Brandywine River and set up his own little country,
where the alcohol flowed freely. Pretty soon, the greater
portion of the Shire's population was packed into a small strip
of land between the River and the Forest. The mayor of Michel
Delving finally admitted defeat and repealed prohibition. Most
hobbit folk returned to the four farthings, but Brandybuck and
his family had set up a nice home in Bucklebeltland, so they
stayed behind. To this day, Bucklebeltland is still known for
it's cavalier attitude towards the Shire's laws (making it the
perfect place for Frodo to hide out from tax laws and bill
collectors), and also for the fine quality of its many pubs.
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