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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Balrog of Moria? Do the swirling flames behind Thorin at what appears to be The East Moria Gate herald a Demon of Might?
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 30 2012, 9:21am

Post #1 of 53 (1882 views)
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Balrog of Moria? Do the swirling flames behind Thorin at what appears to be The East Moria Gate herald a Demon of Might? Can't Post

Its an epic shot. I have long wandered, if the Azanulbizar battle were indeed to be included (as it now almost certainly is) how they could do anything other than give The Balrog of Moria his proper and due allusion, at the least. It seemed most likely and fitting that the dwarves would have their victory, and then a leader among them (be it Thrain, Thorin or Dain) would stand near the Moria gate (as Thorin seems to be doing in this spectacular shot) and declare victory, only to be overshadowed, literally and figuratively by the coming or hinted coming of Durin's Bane. I know some have said the Balrog should be entirely saved for first mentioning and glimpsing in Fellowship, but that means re-writing the history of The Battle, of Moria, and of The Dwarves as a people. That seems far too high a price for the trivial and somewhat gimmicky goal of saving a surprise monster for later in the series, even aside from the fact that connection and prior mention in the earlier work would only serve to build the terror and legend of The Demon Thane.

The Flame, seemingly swirling out of The East Moria Gate behind Thorin, makes me wonder all the more. Peter would really have to go out of the way NOT to give some allusion to The Balrog, primarily because the only way around the demon is to either re-write the history of the war so that the dwarves were defeated by The Orcs, as opposed to having won an overwhelmingly decisive victory in which not a single orc/goblin remained alive on the field, or some other reason for the dwarves winning a great victory and then stopping short of reclaiming their most ancient and mighty Fatherland, would need to be invented, and both of those deviations are appallingly disgusting.

Everyone who has read the material thoroughly knows why the dwarves did not and could not retake Moria, even after having wreaked a devastating vanquishing upon the goblin host. The reason was The Balrog, the same Being that had driven them from Khazad-Dum and into exile to begin with. Thrain wanted to reclaim Khazad-Dum after the victory against the goblin/orc hordes, but the other dwarves knew better, and Dain, who had beheld The Balrog and had come back from the gate grey with terror, expressly told Thrain what awaited them, ready and willing to slay another Heir of Durin, and that The Dwarves would not walk in Moria until some other Power came, and The World changed. It is, among other things, some of the best foreshadowing in the series.

But there we have it. We have heard no word of The Balrog being involved, and yet without his presence and at least tacit, potential involvement, there is no explaining the dwarven host forgoing the chance to reclaim Moria without re-writing and savaging the entire history of that war and of The Dwarven People (and The History of Third Age in the process). Is the fire behind Thorin a first cue that we will see Durin's Bane after all?

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Nov 30 2012, 9:25am)


Crunchable Birdses
Rohan


Nov 30 2012, 9:24am

Post #2 of 53 (1003 views)
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Where on earth are you seeing this footage from? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

* crunch *


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 30 2012, 9:29am

Post #3 of 53 (1074 views)
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You have to go through all the essentially bootleg load ups of recent tv ads [In reply to] Can't Post

crunchables ( is that a Fable reference by the way. . . those games had edible chicks for baddies, as I recall). This is the one in question. Look at the Thorin shot near the end. http://www.youtube.com/...amp;feature=youtu.be At about 14 seconds you see him rallying or posing victoriously near what is a dead ringer for The East Gate of Moria as it was seen in Fellowship, and the area all behind him, from the gate moving out, is aswirl with flame.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Macfeast
Rohan


Nov 30 2012, 9:35am

Post #4 of 53 (1064 views)
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For reference. [In reply to] Can't Post

This is the shot from the TV-spot referred to. Also, The East-gate of Moria as it appearad in FOTR.

The fire is indeed curious, and seemingly spreads even beyond the gate. Moria and the Balrog, or reused gate-design for Erebor and the coming of the dragon?


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 30 2012, 9:39am

Post #5 of 53 (950 views)
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It best be ... [In reply to] Can't Post

You have me excited now! I completely missed the shot of Thorin, fire, and the Moria gate!

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 30 2012, 9:40am

Post #6 of 53 (930 views)
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Thanks for the comparison shot. [In reply to] Can't Post

Almost certainly the same gate. And the scene appears right after what seems to be a glimpse of the dwarven army charging that of the goblins. The pieces all seem to fit, though I know sometimes with Jackson et al the pieces fitting together perfectly in logical theory does not guarantee that the puzzle/picture will actually turn out that way Unsure lol

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Crunchable Birdses
Rohan


Nov 30 2012, 9:40am

Post #7 of 53 (955 views)
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Ah yes, I see now [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmmm, well I'd be very surprised if they threw the Balrog in with all the prologue stuff, but then again I agree that the place looks rather on fire. If it's Moria, I can't see why it would be on fire unless the orcs are razing the place (which seems unlikely, as it's pretty much all stone), or the Balrog is having a party in there.

I got "Crunchable Birdses" from a line Gollum says in TTT:EE, but the picture is a reference to Fable's "Crunchy chick", yes.

* crunch *


waaimasjien
Bree

Nov 30 2012, 9:42am

Post #8 of 53 (967 views)
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Since the fire is indeed spreading beyond the gate... [In reply to] Can't Post

...it might well just be fire from fire arrows and that kind of stuff. But since this indeed looks like the Moria gate, the Balrog will probably be there. I'd like it to be a subtle reference, like only a glipse of the demon, then a cut back to Thorin as he tells this story to Bilbo - "But a force more powerful than us lurked in the darkness of Kazad-Dum"...

By using only a glipse the full reveil in FotR would still have it's effect if one would watch all movies chronologically. (Although I do not worry about that too much myself... I feel these stories are seperate enough, and I'd always watch LotR before the Hobbit if I would do a marathon).


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 30 2012, 9:42am

Post #9 of 53 (929 views)
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Thing is, leaving Him out makes no real sense [In reply to] Can't Post

beyond the gimmicks, because the forsaking of Moria makes no sense without him, short of a massive historical revisionism. Also, it may be worth noting that The Visual Companion for Unexpected Journey does mention The Balrog as the reason the Dwarves were originally driven from Khazad-Dum.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Nov 30 2012, 10:15am

Post #10 of 53 (876 views)
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Just more Orcs would do a similar job. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure a Balrog is the only means to explain why they didn't pursue the battle inside Moria. The battle had cost the dwarves more than half of their forces and at least a couple of factions weren't keen on continuing even before the Balrog is mentioned. Having lots more Orcs inside the doors would do a very similar job. (After all that's why Sauron couldn't take Moria in the first place, when the positions were reversed).

I suppose it is also worth noting that, whilst there is no doubt the Balrog would have been impassable, actually the dwarven attempts to retake Moria never made it past the orcs anyway. It was orcs that did for Thror, and Orcs that did for Balin and Co.

So for me the Balrog might be nice, but equally I can see that it might be a bit confusing to have a single mention without much context which is not picked up again. Wasn't it Chekov who said that you can't have a Balrog on stage in the first act of a trilogy unless.....

LR


(This post was edited by Lacrimae Rerum on Nov 30 2012, 10:21am)


jtarkey
Rohan


Nov 30 2012, 10:52am

Post #11 of 53 (853 views)
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I hope we get a small glimpse of the Balrog [In reply to] Can't Post

It strengthens Balins desire to retake Moria. Think about the similarities between what Thorin is trying to do with Erebor, and what Balin tries to do with Moria.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


The Preciousss
Bree

Nov 30 2012, 11:18am

Post #12 of 53 (829 views)
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Guess I have to do a reread, [In reply to] Can't Post

but I thought that it was Balin who dug too deep and awakened the Balrog after he retook Moria from the Goblins...


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Nov 30 2012, 11:26am

Post #13 of 53 (797 views)
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Ooh no [In reply to] Can't Post

You are just over a thousand years out there.

LR


Azaghâl
Lorien


Nov 30 2012, 11:42am

Post #14 of 53 (822 views)
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How I think it should be done. [In reply to] Can't Post

Dain (or Thorin or what ever) Looks through the gate and there sees shadow and flame, and maybe a hint of Balrog eyes. He does not mention it by "name" but says Durin's bane still lives in Moria we cannot enter (or something like that..).
That way we will not have seen the Balrog, but only a hint, that something lurks within. This way we know it's there but the real sight of the Balrog is kept for FotR.
Also this will probably be a flashback by Thorin, so that way Gandalf will listen in and give some continuety, of his knowledge about it.

*Baruk khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!*


Shagrat
Gondor

Nov 30 2012, 11:58am

Post #15 of 53 (781 views)
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Thought [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps we'll see Thorin leading the cheers following the victory, which are then rudely interrupted by a loud bellowing noise (similar to what startles the Moria Orcs in FOTR), causing the Dwarves to flinch and look on as they see a flicker of flame and shadow at the gate entrance.


lidlessEye
Rivendell

Nov 30 2012, 12:03pm

Post #16 of 53 (759 views)
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i wonder... [In reply to] Can't Post

...if it will be dain, who discovers durins bane...
i hope we will see dain in the first film


jtarkey
Rohan


Nov 30 2012, 12:11pm

Post #17 of 53 (776 views)
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THIS!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

It would be awesome, and very foreboding.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


redgiraffe
Rohan

Nov 30 2012, 12:42pm

Post #18 of 53 (718 views)
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Me likey [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Dain (or Thorin or what ever) Looks through the gate and there sees shadow and flame, and maybe a hint of Balrog eyes. He does not mention it by "name" but says Durin's bane still lives in Moria we cannot enter (or something like that..).
That way we will not have seen the Balrog, but only a hint, that something lurks within. This way we know it's there but the real sight of the Balrog is kept for FotR.
Also this will probably be a flashback by Thorin, so that way Gandalf will listen in and give some continuety, of his knowledge about it.


I love your idea and Shagrat's idea. I think it would be cool if they sort of mixed both of them together.

Maybe they are all cheering and then they hear the bellowing sound of the Balrog causing the Dwarves to flinch and then Dain looks past the gate to see the hint of the Balrog and makes the claim that they cannot enter Moria because Durin's Bane still lives in it.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


Shagrat
Gondor

Nov 30 2012, 12:46pm

Post #19 of 53 (721 views)
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Dain [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm working on the premise that Dain won't be at the battle, primarily because there's no indication that Billy Connolly is in film one yet. I can seem them streamlining things and having Thorin do the deed against Azog. Thrain's role could be important though. It may be Thorin who restrains his father.


little mouse
Rivendell

Nov 30 2012, 1:26pm

Post #20 of 53 (705 views)
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That`s not Balrog [In reply to] Can't Post

After the dwarves were victorious they burend all the bodies of their comrades who died in the battle and that`s probably that scene


Macfeast
Rohan


Nov 30 2012, 1:57pm

Post #21 of 53 (632 views)
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Would be a shame if he wasn't there. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it would be very interesting having him present at Anazulbizar, setting him up as a character well before the Battle of the Five Armies. When he finally makes his arrival at Erebor, he'd be a familiar face we've seen on occasion through the trilogy, coming to Thorin's aid; That has the potential of being a very powerful scene, the Ride of the Rohirrim (Boarhirrim?) of the Hobbit. Now, granted, this need not happen in film one; If they show future, expanded flashbacks to Azanulbizar, then they can introduce him properly there (although it would hardly hurt to have him present in film one, if only for a few quick moments in the spotlight, to establish that he is more than just another dwarf among many).
IMO, Azanulbizar is such an excellent opportunity to introduce him, if not by name then at least by presence, that it'd almost be a mistake not to. There's so, so much to gain from it, and very little to lose.

Do we know if Billy Connolly have done any filming yet? As I understand it, they have not yet filmed the Battle of the Five Armies, but Billy Connolly have been in New Zealand, and have referenced his character-design (references which very much suggests battle, more than anything else). If he has partaken in any filming, what parts? The lead-up to the Battle of the Five Armies? Some other battle? Or, fingers crossed, could it be that he has partaken in the filming of some dwarven history, Azanulbizar included?


(This post was edited by Macfeast on Nov 30 2012, 1:59pm)


Shagrat
Gondor

Nov 30 2012, 1:59pm

Post #22 of 53 (602 views)
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I very much hope he is in [In reply to] Can't Post

Just to clarify, I hope you are right. I'm just bracing myself for change.

I believe Connolly has only referred to his look and the fact that he rides a boar thus far. I would hope that that is not at Azanulbizar, but then there is Manu Bennett saying he rides a warg as Azog...


xxxyyy
Rohan

Nov 30 2012, 2:51pm

Post #23 of 53 (594 views)
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I hope not. The Balrog should be woken up by the presence of Gandalf (in FOTR) and the rising power of the Ring. [In reply to] Can't Post

We know the dwarves have retaken Moria, Gimli is pretty sure about that.
Have the Balrog freely roaming around there wouldn't make sense. We need to see Balin return to Moria and reclaim it, and spread the news about that.

http://energyfromthorium.com/


lidlessEye
Rivendell

Nov 30 2012, 3:59pm

Post #24 of 53 (542 views)
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then might've overread your book... [In reply to] Can't Post

dain learns that the balrog is awake...


Kendalf
Rohan


Nov 30 2012, 4:25pm

Post #25 of 53 (499 views)
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I'll put my life savings on the Balrog turning up...but not on screen [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
That way we will not have seen the Balrog, but only a hint, that something lurks within. This way we know it's there but the real sight of the Balrog is kept for FotR.

Yep. I'm willing to bet he will feature but, like you say, only through reference, not an explicit appearance on film: a) His absence would make the dwarves' failure to colonise Moria after defeating the orcs a little confusing b) Jackson will be wanting to wow audiences with a face-meltingly spectacular prologue to herald their return to Middle-earth, and the inclusion of the Balrog would certainnly add to that [Gandalf's confrontation with him in FotR is just about the most memorable sequence in the entire original trilogy] c) However, actually showing him on screen would completely undermine the above sequence so, yes, a swirl of flame and that superb gutteral growl is all we'll get

"Show...a little more respect...for faerie tales, Riskbreaker."

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