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dave_lf
Gondor
Nov 29 2012, 4:53pm
Post #1 of 14
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Possible Smaug/Lonely Mountain themes in soundtrack
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This doesn't really warrant a new thread, but if I post it on the old soundtrack thread, no one will see it. So apologies for that.
There are two interesting motifs at the end of A Good Omen. The first consists of three ascending pairs of notes. In each pair, the second note is higher than the first one, and each pair starts higher than the one before. They are played mournfully on either a trombone or a French Horn, and are full of longing.
This motif is followed by one that is its exact opposite. Again three pairs of notes, but this time the pairs descend instead of ascend, and they are sinister and brassy. I am quite certain that this is a Smaug theme based on its nature, its position in the soundtrack, and the fact that the only other place it is heard is in the prologue during what can only be Smaug's attack on Erebor/Dale.
So my little theory is that the first motif is "longing for the Lonely Mountain," and that Shore has rather cleverly made Smaug's motif the opposite of this. The dwarves build the Mountain up, and Smaug tears it down.
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Kassandros
Rohan
Nov 29 2012, 4:56pm
Post #2 of 14
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I'm gonna have to listen again. But this is exactly the sort of thing Howard Shore would do.
all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...
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lidlessEye
Rivendell
Nov 29 2012, 5:17pm
Post #3 of 14
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This doesn't really warrant a new thread, but if I post it on the old soundtrack thread, no one will see it. So apologies for that.
There are two interesting motifs at the end of A Good Omen. The first consists of three ascending pairs of notes. In each pair, the second note is higher than the first one, and each pair starts higher than the one before. They are played mournfully on either a trombone or a French Horn, and are full of longing.
This motif is followed by one that is its exact opposite. Again three pairs of notes, but this time the pairs descend instead of ascend, and they are sinister and brassy. I am quite certain that this is a Smaug theme based on its nature, its position in the soundtrack, and the fact that the only other place it is heard is in the prologue during what can only be Smaug's attack on Erebor/Dale.
So my little theory is that the first motif is "longing for the Lonely Mountain," and that Shore has rather cleverly made Smaug's motif the opposite of this. The dwarves build the Mountain up, and Smaug tears it down.
you're absolutely right. you can hear the descending trumpet-theme at the end of "a good omen" again on "my dear frodo" at about 4.10min
i'm 100% sure its the smaug-theme ;)
also shore as a thing for spoiling with motifs, that play a bigger part in the next movie: we had already the gondor-theme in FotR during boromirs speech at the council of elrond - it returns two years later when gandalf arrives in minas tirith and also on the TTT SEE during the boromir-flashback
(This post was edited by lidlessEye on Nov 29 2012, 5:20pm)
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Glóin the Dark
Rivendell
Nov 29 2012, 5:44pm
Post #4 of 14
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The second motif (I'm assuming you mean the very last phrase of "A Good Omen", before the song begins) seems to be intimately connected to the "Sauron" theme from "The Lord of the Rings". In the sequence [G G# G G# G E D#] the first six notes are "Sauron", the last four are the ending of "A Good Omen". I agree that this is likely to refer to Smaug rather than the Necromancer in "The Hobbit".
If this phrase is the last of "An Unexpected Journey" (before the credits), it's interesting to compare it with the opening of the track "My Dear Frodo", which begins with a near (though not exact) reversal of it.
(This post was edited by Glóin the Dark on Nov 29 2012, 5:46pm)
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lidlessEye
Rivendell
Nov 29 2012, 5:56pm
Post #5 of 14
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...already heared cumberpatch spoiling the end in august.
he said, that the film will end with smaug opening an eye in his dark lair.
well it was before the three films were announced, but it doesn't matter if the dwarfs are standing on carrcok at the end, or if they sit in the barrels in the end - in both versions you can show smaug awakening in the end.
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Glóin the Dark
Rivendell
Nov 29 2012, 6:03pm
Post #6 of 14
(183 views)
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...I missed that spoiler. I like the sound of that.
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dave_lf
Gondor
Nov 29 2012, 6:21pm
Post #7 of 14
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Thanks for working out the notes. It looks like my ear deceived me a bit. I won't try to represent the rhythm, but I believe the "ascending" theme is:
D# F# D# G# D# Bb
And the "descending" one, like you said is:
G# G G# G E D#
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Glóin the Dark
Rivendell
Nov 29 2012, 6:50pm
Post #8 of 14
(170 views)
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The ascending motif you've mentioned seems to be an incarnation of a longer melody in proximity to which it often appears. In "My Dear Frodo", your motif (I think it's playing in A minor) goes [ A C, A D, A E ]. The three stepwise-ascending notes are then extracted as the opening of the theme [C D E, E B] (I won't try to indicate the rhythm, either!). I noticed that this melody bears a striking resemblence to the music which plays early in "The Fellowship of the Ring" when Gandalf enters Bag End and starts looking at Bilbo's old map of the East [D E F C, Bb C Db Ab]. This is just a variant of the Shire music, but now it can also be heard as a flashback (intentional or not) to this Erebor music!
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dave_lf
Gondor
Nov 29 2012, 7:05pm
Post #9 of 14
(135 views)
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I've been assuming that this motif from your post:
[C D E, E B]
is for Thorin, based on where and how often it occurs. If that's correct, it would certainly make sense for it to be used in conjunction with "longing for the Lonely Mountain".
I wonder how many of these connections are deliberate, and how many are just because there are only so many notes out there. But the fact that some are clearly intentional kind of suggests they all are.
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Kassandros
Rohan
Nov 29 2012, 7:17pm
Post #10 of 14
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If you haven't read Doug Adam's massive tome about the Lord of the Rings score, you should. It's pretty fascinating.
all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...
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dave_lf
Gondor
Nov 29 2012, 7:19pm
Post #11 of 14
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Sounds like a good thing to mention when people ask me for Christmas gift ideas.
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Kassandros
Rohan
Nov 29 2012, 7:27pm
Post #12 of 14
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I learned a ton of things I had never noticed before from it.
[In reply to]
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And I also got it as a Christmas gift!
Here's the Amazon link for anyone interested.
The only warning I'll give is that if you aren't great at matching music you hear to sheet music, it can be a little difficult to read and you might have to consult the recordings. I still would like to read it while playing the melodies on a keyboard sometime, but I got a lot out of it just reading it.
The author also posts on these forums now and then.
all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...
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Glóin the Dark
Rivendell
Nov 29 2012, 7:50pm
Post #13 of 14
(94 views)
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I got it for Christmas, too! I haven't had a chance to read it thoroughly yet (busy couple of years!).
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Glóin the Dark
Rivendell
Nov 29 2012, 8:07pm
Post #14 of 14
(93 views)
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Thorin - yeah, that sounds plausible. Or perhaps Dwarves in Exile, more generally?
I think the fact that the themes (from "The Lord of the Rings", at least) all seem to be built up out from a rich network of elementary "molecules" gives the whole score a kind of coherence which can lead us to make connections which weren't explicitly intended by the composer - but which can still be valid as long as they make musical and narrative sense.
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