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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Has 3D caused PJ to kill the Middle Earth "experience"?
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SteveDJ
Rivendell

Nov 26 2012, 6:39pm

Post #1 of 39 (1336 views)
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Has 3D caused PJ to kill the Middle Earth "experience"? Can't Post

I'm going to mention something from the recent Vlog #9, so if that will be a spoiler you don't want - go back now.

Ok, first off - I'm just as excited as everyone else here about the arrival of The Hobbit movie. I've got my midnight tickets and everything! I still cannot wait for Dec 14. To this day, I can still sit and watch the entire trilogy, EE style, and become fully immersed in Middle Earth. Even high "action" sequences are still fully realistic -- the creature at the entrance to the mines of Moria, and the fight with the cave troll inside -- the battle sequences, both at Helm's Deep and Minas Tirith (ok, Legolas' Oliphant sequence stretched a little, but still doesn't take me out of the moment). Everything that happens all still seemed to keep just enough realism to keep me immersed in the experience, immersed in Middle Earth.

But... In the vlog #9, I saw something now that genuinely concerns me. It was just a clip being put together on their computers. Something involving some of the dwarves falling, or sliding, down some ... vertical? ... cave? ... passageway? (Not sure what to call it.) But the computer guys were making sound effects as they played it, and mentioning how cool it would look in 3D, or that they 'had to' do that for the 3D.

What did I see? I saw something that I don't think is real anymore. I saw something that looked more like a cartoon. I saw a scene that suddenly reminded me of something in the second Indiana Jones movie (Temple of Doom) involving a ridiculous roller-coaster mine cart sequence. I saw something that looks like it would break the laws of physics. I saw something that, while it might indeed be "cool", and "amazing" to watch (in 3D, no less), but that on repeated viewings is likely to stretch my believability. People cannot take that kind of physical damage or abuse, and just walk away (but, cartoon characters can) - but I sense that is happening here. And if here, in one scene, then how many other places will it happen too? (Remember the first trailer with multiple endings? Having a troll crash down on you from a likely great height, and you can still get up and walk away --- hmmm...)

So my concern now is that we will end up with a movie that - while being a wonderful adaptation of the book and all - won't stand up to the same level of repeat viewings with the ability to repeat pulling me into a fully immersed Middle Earth experience.

Back to my original subject then -- I have to wonder how much of these 'fanciful' action sequences are due to the use of 3D?


(This post was edited by SteveDJ on Nov 26 2012, 6:40pm)


elevorn
Lorien


Nov 26 2012, 6:55pm

Post #2 of 39 (635 views)
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have to wait and see... [In reply to] Can't Post

But I have always felt a bit of trepidation when it comes to any director taking a movie to 3D. But I have seen several movies that simply used the depth of 3D as a tool and not overtly created shots to point at the audience. I hope Jackson goes with the depth of picture rather than having characters point into the audience and crap like that. I personally have yet to like a movie in 3D. the closest I came was the last Harry Potter because I felt it used the medium well and didn't have a lot of the canned looking cliché 3D shots. I'm hoping Jackson takes the high road.



"clever hobbits to climb so high!"
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(This post was edited by elevorn on Nov 26 2012, 7:04pm)


shadowdog
Rohan

Nov 26 2012, 6:55pm

Post #3 of 39 (627 views)
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Remember [In reply to] Can't Post

You are watching scenes being created on the computer; raw and unfinished. So I would wait to see the finished product on the screen to make a judgement. I saw the raw images of the fight in the cave in FOTR and it looked just as cartoonish.


Kassandros
Rohan


Nov 26 2012, 6:58pm

Post #4 of 39 (691 views)
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Please don't worry over this [In reply to] Can't Post

The Lord of the Rings trilogy had plenty of "Indiana Jones" types moments. From the collapsing stair in Mora to Legolas shield-surfing and the avalanche of skulls in Paths of the Dead. If you liked the first three movies, I don't see any reason to worry about these.

It's just a couple weeks away. We'll find out the 3D influence one way or another soon, but nothing I saw in the vlogs seemed any different from the making-of stuff for LotR.

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Nov 26 2012, 6:59pm

Post #5 of 39 (587 views)
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No [In reply to] Can't Post

I have been saying people will making 3D responsible for shots they deem gimicky. But watch LOTR again, there are shots with very dynamic camera, stuff flying towards the camera etc. As for realism, how's throwing Gimli in full gear realistic? That's just one example.

As for the vlog:

A: Jerry, what are you doing.
B: I'm making a 3D extravaganza.

B: It wouldn't be a good shot if we didn't have sound effect, so...

I'm like 100% positive this shot would have been in, 3D or no 3D.


elevorn
Lorien


Nov 26 2012, 7:01pm

Post #6 of 39 (632 views)
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I forget about that bridge fall everytime... [In reply to] Can't Post

and then I groan with the idea of the physics it would take for that to happen. Mythbusters has almost ruined some of my movie enjoyment. I just have to tell myself that in Middle Earth, our physics don't apply.



"clever hobbits to climb so high!"
Check out my writing www.jdstudios.wordpress.com


Kassandros
Rohan


Nov 26 2012, 7:04pm

Post #7 of 39 (640 views)
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I once knew a coroner who couldn't get into Boromir's death scene [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess it all depends on our own personal suspension of disbelief. None of the physics in the LotR movies bothers me. But I used to know a guy who had worked as a coroner who absolutely could not take the death of Boromir seriously because of how unrealistic it was.

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...


Danielos
Rohan

Nov 26 2012, 7:06pm

Post #8 of 39 (547 views)
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Please make LOTR in 3D too! [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope PJ can release the LOTR EEs postconverted to 3D in cinemas. Titanic looked stunning in 3D, and I don´t doubt the trilogy will get a whole new dimension to it!


elevorn
Lorien


Nov 26 2012, 7:08pm

Post #9 of 39 (584 views)
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That tag line sounds like the lead in to a great joke [In reply to] Can't Post

 



"clever hobbits to climb so high!"
Check out my writing www.jdstudios.wordpress.com


Kassandros
Rohan


Nov 26 2012, 7:11pm

Post #10 of 39 (521 views)
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I was thoroughly unimpressed with Titanic in 3D myself [In reply to] Can't Post

I used to feel the same as you, but after finding the 3D conversion of Titantic to look pretty mediocre and add nothing to the film, I've changed my mind. If Cameron can't pull off a good 3D conversion, I'm guessing no one can. None of the 3D conversions I've seen have been any good. The only good 3D movies I've seen have either been animated or filmed in 3D.

I mean, a lot of the scenes in Titanic 3D just looked like the characters were arbitrarily put on a few different planes over a flat background rather than having real depth. Not nearly as good as the 3D in Avatar, for example.

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...


Zherkezhi
Bree


Nov 26 2012, 7:13pm

Post #11 of 39 (541 views)
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It reminded me of the fall of the Balrog - classic PJ, if you ask me // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Nov 26 2012, 7:52pm

Post #12 of 39 (477 views)
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Whereas a nurse who used to post on TORN [In reply to] Can't Post

explained why his death made sense from a medical point of view. Interesting to see two medicos viewing it in different ways.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Nov 26 2012, 7:58pm

Post #13 of 39 (446 views)
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Wait untill we get the corpse, before you start burying it! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
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ShireHorse
Rohan

Nov 26 2012, 8:10pm

Post #14 of 39 (434 views)
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Am I right in saying [In reply to] Can't Post

that the fall down the tunnel is, in fact, a water slide and that's why they're making swooshing noises? The water should protect them from the fall so perhaps it isn't so unrealistic after all.

I haven't seen a lot in 3D but I've enjoyed them all. I have the feeling from the earlier vlogs that PJ is going mainly for depth.


Lightice
Lorien

Nov 26 2012, 8:27pm

Post #15 of 39 (394 views)
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That's interesting... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I guess it all depends on our own personal suspension of disbelief. None of the physics in the LotR movies bothers me. But I used to know a guy who had worked as a coroner who absolutely could not take the death of Boromir seriously because of how unrealistic it was.


I've read police reports about criminals who have been shot into Swiss cheese, and still keep on firing their guns for two minutes before keeling over. No drugs, just pure adrenalin. Humans can do some crazy feats when they are in a full-on adrenalin high. Keeping that in mind, I didn't think Boromir's death scene to be that unrealistic save for the fact that the Uruk-Hai kept attacking him one-on-one instead of just piling on him.


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Nov 26 2012, 8:29pm

Post #16 of 39 (387 views)
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Collapsing stairs and plummeting wizards spring to mind. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 26 2012, 8:34pm

Post #17 of 39 (407 views)
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I once joked that the Company would escape Goblintown through the Great Goblins [In reply to] Can't Post

Toilet throne waste pipes ....

Would they really go for that escape?

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Kassandros
Rohan


Nov 26 2012, 8:37pm

Post #18 of 39 (369 views)
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I personally don't have any problems with the scene [In reply to] Can't Post

For what it's worth, the guy I'm talking about also worked as a cop and sociology professor at different times in his life, so I'm not sure which point of view informed his opinion. Alas, he died a few years ago, or I'd ask him for more details on his point of view and post it here.

I myself have no particular expertise on the subject and thought Boromir's death was one of the best parts of the trilogy.

Just giving an example of how certain movie trickery can affect different people differently. For me, I have the most problems with stuff like unrealistic sword fights. It drives me crazy to watch movies where people strike at their opponent's sword rather than at their opponent. Also when a hero must face 30 opponents and the 30 opponents inexplicably attack one at a time. On the other hand, I loved the old Hercules (tv show) scenes where a whole bunch of baddies would jump on him at once and then he'd rise up and send them all flying. Completely unrealistic (well, maybe not for a demigod), but I loved it anyway.

I also find it funny that moviemakers have to use unrealistic sound effects for movies because audiences have been trained for them. If someone made a movie where bald eagles actually sounded like bald eagles instead of red-tailed hawks, audiences would think it was wrong. Same for a sword being unsheathed from a leather scabbard without a metal-on-metal sound.

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...


ShireHorse
Rohan

Nov 26 2012, 8:47pm

Post #19 of 39 (359 views)
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I wish you hadn't told me that, Daniel, [In reply to] Can't Post

in case it's true!!


SteveDJ
Rivendell

Nov 26 2012, 8:55pm

Post #20 of 39 (352 views)
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To that, I absolutely agree [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not really a fan of 3D either. Avatar was nice and all, but in the end, I was still left with "...why?"

So, it is up to PJ. If he cannot make 3D worth it to me, I don't think anyone will.


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Grey Havens


Nov 26 2012, 9:00pm

Post #21 of 39 (338 views)
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Becarefull of what you wish... [In reply to] Can't Post

That would be...Crazy

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!


Lightice
Lorien

Nov 26 2012, 9:03pm

Post #22 of 39 (317 views)
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Ditto. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
. For me, I have the most problems with stuff like unrealistic sword fights. It drives me crazy to watch movies where people strike at their opponent's sword rather than at their opponent. Also when a hero must face 30 opponents and the 30 opponents inexplicably attack one at a time.



I wish if only one film showed realistic broadsword fencing, but I haven't seen one. Even the LotR has silly stuff like Boromir teaching the hobbits to back up as they parry. That's a good way to stumble and fall. It's rare enough just to see people holding their swords properly in movies.


In Reply To
I also find it funny that moviemakers have to use unrealistic sound effects for movies because audiences have been trained for them.


Yep, but theyre often useful. Lots of things don't actually make any sound, but if you want people to pay attention to them on the screen, you need to add a sound effect. Personally I find the relatively new trend of giving a lighting and thunder separate sounds pretty distractiing, though.


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Nov 26 2012, 9:08pm

Post #23 of 39 (301 views)
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Bring out your dead! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 26 2012, 9:14pm

Post #24 of 39 (314 views)
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Awful, isn't it? [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope it's just a tunnel.

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SteveDJ
Rivendell

Nov 26 2012, 9:18pm

Post #25 of 39 (306 views)
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Post-converted 2D into 3D is only crap! [In reply to] Can't Post

And here is why:

Try this experiment. Hold one finger out in front of you. Close one eye to view with one eye only, then switch to view with just the other eye. As you alternate which eye is seeing your finger, consider the background behind your finger. In each eye, a portion of the background is visible, where it is hidden (by the finger) for the other eye.

Next, move your finger to a different distance, and repeat. The hidden/shown background is now different.

Now imagine that you had a photograph of what your left eye is seeing, and you want to make that photo into 3D. Where are you going to get the 'background' information, that is, the visual portion of background hidden by the finger in the photo, so that you can create the alternate photo for your right eye? You will need both images to create a 3D photo.


This little experiment only focused on one piece of an image (your finger) - but realize that all through the image there are people and objects at different distances from the eyes, that each conceals a little bit of background visual. Imagine trying to get that information for every frame of a film.

LotR was filmed in 2D - there is no going back to get that information, so it has to be manufactured. Faked. Or call it what you like, just don't call it 'worth my money' -- the quality is going to be crap. Oh, sure, all the computer-generated CGI bits can be recreated on computer to have 3D info for those objects - but all the physical elements on film will require manual recreation of lost background information.

Worse, to make the work easier, objects could be layered. That is, if three people are standing in a scene, but not in a nice line but rather shifted (front to back) being different distances from the eyes, a 3D converter might instead just pull those three film elements out and manufacture the background information as if all three were the same distance from the eyes.

Just talking about this is giving me a headache - I can certainly see why people seeing converted 3D movies could easily complain of such.


So please, PLEASE, stay far away from converted 3D movies - don't patronize the studios for producing such junk. We fought against (and won, I think) the battle against Ted Turner and his attempts to colorize classic B/W movies ... now we need to repeat that fight against making a mess of classic 2D movies.


(This post was edited by SteveDJ on Nov 26 2012, 9:19pm)

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