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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The Hill of Sorcery?
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Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Nov 24 2012, 7:06pm

Post #1 of 41 (1421 views)
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The Hill of Sorcery? Can't Post

As AUJ approaches, it seems the Necromancer/White Council storyline is coming slowly but surely into place. However, there's still a fair amount we don't know as to how exactly things are going to play out. Listening to the score again, a track which stands out is "The Hill of Sorcery", which is placed in-between the Trollshaw and the attack of Wargs. Going on what we know, what on Earth is happening here?

-Benedict Cumberbatch AKA The Necromancer, is not in AUJ (or at least, has been removed from the official cast list)
-Gandy's scene where he's stalked through the ruins of Dol Guldur has been pushed back to Film 2, according to Empire...however, there may be two of these sequences, one where has not yet obtained Glamdring and encounters Thrain, another where he has Glamdring and fights Bolg...or are these both part of the same scene?
-The track itself begins a light repetition of the Hobbit theme, (probably a transition from the Trollshaw to Mirkwood), then the "spider motif" also heard in the track "Radagast the Brown", there's a quieter low-key grim mid-section, and ends with a dramatic rendition of the "Mordor/Sauron" theme

With these in mind, what could be happening at this point at Dol Guldur? IMO, it's likely we'll get a "fly-by" shot similar to how PJ approached Isengard in TTT, with some of the denizens of the fortress kind of lurking/moving about...but the majority of the scene will probably be Orc plotting/going after Raddy as he escapes the attack on Rhosgobel? Can't imagine how the Sauron theme comes into play, however, unless the Necro has a non-speaking cameo (though shouldn't BC still be credited as he performed mo-cap for the character as well)?

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Nov 24 2012, 7:10pm)


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Nov 24 2012, 7:10pm

Post #2 of 41 (679 views)
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I thought it Elrond's scenes with the White Council at DG [In reply to] Can't Post

 that have been pushed back to Film 2, according to EMPIRE...not Gandalf's exploration?


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Æ Victoria Monfort






Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Nov 24 2012, 7:16pm

Post #3 of 41 (741 views)
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Here it is on Empire Page 64: [In reply to] Can't Post

http://newboards.theonering.net/...?post=517714;#517714

Unless there ARE two such scenes, and Empire was only referring to one of them. However, having Gandy poking around a decrepit, threatening stone environment might seem redundant being part of the same film as the King's Tomb sequence, which appears to be the same thing.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Nov 24 2012, 7:22pm)


Elutherian
Rohan


Nov 24 2012, 7:32pm

Post #4 of 41 (613 views)
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To be fair... [In reply to] Can't Post

...If the entire film was just 2 1/2 hours of Gandalf walking around tombs, I would still pay to watch it.

The Grey Pilgrim, they once called me. Three hundred lives of men I walked this earth, and now I have no time...


Lightice
Lorien

Nov 24 2012, 7:35pm

Post #5 of 41 (598 views)
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I doubt Empire on this one [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To


Hill of Sorcery is right there plain on the soundtrack. I find it incredibly hard to believe that the soundtrack of the first film would include music from the second, in spite of the last minute turn into a trilogy. Furthermore, Gandalf can't simply pull the map and the key out of his arse; he has to get them from somewhere, and there is no good reason to alter the plot on this detail.

It's far more likely that we see Dol Guldur in a flashback in the first film and for real in the second, and the same probably applies the Lonely Mountain, as we've already been promised a small Smaug-cameo.


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Nov 24 2012, 7:42pm

Post #6 of 41 (596 views)
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Ah, yes, the clips of Gandalf fighting zombie Thrain were only ever in the teaser... [In reply to] Can't Post

so if indeed it is Thrain, and is a flashback to how Gandalf got the key and map it means we won't get to see it in its "proper" place, during the unexpected party... Unsure

I agree that such a sequence might be too similar to Gandalf exploring the Nazgul tombs, with the potential to confuse the general audience, but even so... how can they now fit Thrain's backstory into the DoS in the proper context to the story of the key?


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Æ Victoria Monfort






(This post was edited by Eleniel on Nov 24 2012, 7:45pm)


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Nov 24 2012, 7:45pm

Post #7 of 41 (594 views)
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Hil of Sorcery is on the score, but that doesn't mean Gandy is there in Film 1... [In reply to] Can't Post

There could well be an AUJ scene in Dol Guldur featuring another character (Necro? Azog? Bolg? Even Raddy?).

However, you may be right in that Empire's quote is misleading.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Nov 24 2012, 7:51pm

Post #8 of 41 (558 views)
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I agree that the narrative could get quite messy if they don't show the Thrain sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

in good time. Two possibilities:

-Might Gandy mention finding Thrain in the domain of the Necro, (possibly with some very brief flashes of the scene for emphasis) at the Unexpected Party, then we see the full scene in Film 2?
-Might Empire be misleading - there are two scenes, one with Thrain (in Film 1) and one with Bolg (in Film 2)?

Strangely, there's a shot of Gandy falling down a rock revise in the latest trailer from September - it appears to be daytime outside, so that MAY rule out the King's Tomb, meaning it's part of the Dol Guldur sequence...however, there were shots in the final trailers for LotR which only ended up the EE's (or not at all I think?), so these things can be misleading.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Nov 24 2012, 7:55pm

Post #9 of 41 (617 views)
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There are indeed 2 separate scenes of Gandalf exploring ruins SPOILERS [In reply to] Can't Post

The outdoor Dol Guldur scene where Gandalf fights Thrain appears in Trailer 1 only, and was likely pushed back to DoS (Gandalf definitely has Glamdring). How then does Thorin come to have Train's key in AUJ? Perhaps Gandalf encountered him in Moria (since Weta Chronicles located Thrain's disappearance there), or has been to Dol Guldur before (canonical). OR Thorin was in possession of the key all along (since it is labelled as Thorin's key in all the merchandise).

Further confusing the issue is the appearance of Dol Guldur in AUJ as indicated by the soundtrack name "Hill of Sorcery" and the landscape shot from Trailer 2. I think it likely that these will be parts of Radagast's adventure in Mirkwood after he gets evicted from his home by spiders. He will relate it in flashback form to Gandalf (they will meet up after the dwarves leave the Shire).

The subterranean pit scene from both trailers 1 and 2 is distinct from the Dol Guldur scene (though I thought it was Dol Guldur when I saw the first trailer) and is confirmed as the Nazgul crypt in the Weta Chronicles book (and the debatable hint of a wraith scream in Trailer 2's pit scene). The crypt scene will occur after Radagast tells Gandalf of the dark power in Mirkwood and we see his flashback, at which point the two will leave the company to scout out the crypt structure which we see the exterior of in Weta Chronicles. This is where Gandalf tells Radagast to leave (this intel is from CinemaCon, right?). It also appears that Gandalf does not have Glamdring at this point, reenforcing the pre-Trollshaws chronological sequence.

What is curious about this scene is why Gandalf is being shown running into the crypt in Trailer 2, nearly falling over the edge of the pit.

These bits of information certainly raise more questions than they answer.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Nov 24 2012, 8:08pm

Post #10 of 41 (528 views)
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I don't think we'll see Gandalf in Dol Guldur in film 1 [In reply to] Can't Post

Even in flashback. Do we know Gandalf gave Thorin the map&key in the movieverse? The Thrain fight from trailer 1 is definitely a continuation of the Dol Guldur exploration sequence, but Gandalf has Glamdring with him. Perhaps this is why it hasn't shown up in any subsequent TV spots?
Then again, Mike Mizrahi is supposed to appear in both AUJ and DoS according to IMDb...

So much confusion Crazy

Personally I would like to see Gandalf in DG getting the key&map from Thrain in AUJ and then returning and encountering Bolg in DoS, but I just think it's unlikely.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Nov 24 2012, 8:13pm

Post #11 of 41 (546 views)
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Soundtrack [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Further confusing the issue is the appearance of Dol Guldur in AUJ as indicated by the soundtrack name "Hill of Sorcery" and the landscape shot from Trailer 2. I think it likely that these will be parts of Radagast's adventure in Mirkwood after he gets evicted from his home by spiders. He will relate it in flashback form to Gandalf (they will meet up after the dwarves leave the Shire).

I think you are right that Radagast will be associated with Dol Guldur in AUJ - the soundtrack all but confirms it: The opening of "Hill of Sorcery" is almost a continuation of the "spidery," agitated string theme we first heard in "Radagast the Brown"...


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Æ Victoria Monfort






Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Nov 24 2012, 8:18pm

Post #12 of 41 (537 views)
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yes! [In reply to] Can't Post

And it ends with a Mordor-ish theme, correct? Perhaps that track will encompass both the end of the Radagast flashback sequence and their exploration of the crypt, where the Mordor/Nazgul theme will play upon the discovery of the open sarcophagi.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Nov 24 2012, 8:34pm

Post #13 of 41 (539 views)
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Just checked the Visual Companion... [In reply to] Can't Post

In the chapter about "The Quest" it says this:


Quote


And so Thorin and Gandalf have formed The Company, to journey across Middle-earth to the Lonely Mountain, there to determine whether or not the dragon has abandoned the halls of Erebor....
...

...They [the Dwarves] have a map, made by Thorin's grandfather, Thror; and a large silver key to the secret door, entrusted to Gandalf against just such an opportunity.




Entrusted by whom, and when??? It's sounding to me from this that maybe Gandalf gives Thorin the key and map when they meet at Bree...


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Æ Victoria Monfort






Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Nov 24 2012, 8:36pm

Post #14 of 41 (507 views)
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Intriguing speculations! [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps the bird speaking to Raddy in Vlog 9 may lead him to where the spiders originated in Dol Guldur? Or alternatively, Raddy's poking around is what instigates the spider attack?

Agreed that the Sauron theme may play over the reveal of the empty Nazgul sarcophagi.

In the Comic-Con footage, I believe there's description of Gandy presenting the key to Thorin at the Unexpected Party, (Fili saying "If there's a key, there must be a door") and I think there was mention he gives them the map as well? Not sure how Gandy would get a hold of these items either...

Agreed that some (or all) of Raddy's Mirkwood scenes in Film 1 may be told through flashback, probably outside the trollshaw.

Regarding Mike Mizrahi as Thrain, IMO we'll see him in the prologue following the Dwarves and the backstory of Erebor, (and at Azanulbizar if it's included), and the "zombie Thrain" from trailer 1 will appear in Dos?

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Nov 24 2012, 8:45pm)


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Nov 24 2012, 8:42pm

Post #15 of 41 (512 views)
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Ah, I'd forgotten the details of the Comic-Con footage... [In reply to] Can't Post

If that is correct about the key, then that's much more reassuring...though as you say, we still don't know how the footage of Gandalf and Thrain fits into the revised script.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Æ Victoria Monfort






AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 24 2012, 9:59pm

Post #16 of 41 (468 views)
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It is possible, however unlikey, that between the Wizard rescing the company and the first warg attack [In reply to] Can't Post

we get something of a creepy fireside tale, in which Balin accounts the ill fated adventure upon which Thrain was lost, and Gandalf at last fully reveals how and when he found Thrain in The Hill of Sorcery.

In Reply To
As AUJ approaches, it seems the Necromancer/White Council storyline is coming slowly but surely into place. However, there's still a fair amount we don't know as to how exactly things are going to play out. Listening to the score again, a track which stands out is "The Hill of Sorcery", which is placed in-between the Trollshaw and the attack of Wargs. Going on what we know, what on Earth is happening here?

-Benedict Cumberbatch AKA The Necromancer, is not in AUJ (or at least, has been removed from the official cast list)
-Gandy's scene where he's stalked through the ruins of Dol Guldur has been pushed back to Film 2, according to Empire...however, there may be two of these sequences, one where has not yet obtained Glamdring and encounters Thrain, another where he has Glamdring and fights Bolg...or are these both part of the same scene?
-The track itself begins a light repetition of the Hobbit theme, (probably a transition from the Trollshaw to Mirkwood), then the "spider motif" also heard in the track "Radagast the Brown", there's a quieter low-key grim mid-section, and ends with a dramatic rendition of the "Mordor/Sauron" theme

With these in mind, what could be happening at this point at Dol Guldur? IMO, it's likely we'll get a "fly-by" shot similar to how PJ approached Isengard in TTT, with some of the denizens of the fortress kind of lurking/moving about...but the majority of the scene will probably be Orc plotting/going after Raddy as he escapes the attack on Rhosgobel? Can't imagine how the Sauron theme comes into play, however, unless the Necro has a non-speaking cameo (though shouldn't BC still be credited as he performed mo-cap for the character as well)?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


totoro
Lorien

Nov 24 2012, 10:21pm

Post #17 of 41 (427 views)
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I think Gandalf is called away [In reply to] Can't Post

Raddy can send messages with animals (like moths). Gandalf is supposed to (canon) disappear unexpectedly before reaching the trollshaws. I think a moth whispering in Gandy's ear could very well be the stimulus to send him off to see what alarmed Raddy so.


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Nov 24 2012, 10:40pm

Post #18 of 41 (414 views)
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Or the title could be misleading [In reply to] Can't Post

Just because the track is called the Hill of Sorcery doesn't mean the scene necessarily takes place on the Hill of Sorcery. It could be just a reference; pulling a name from the books. If it was called Dol Guldur, it would be a horse of an entirely different colour.

If this is the case, then the scene could instead have something to do with the Nazgūl tombs, which I assume are located in Arnor i.e. Eriador.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


totoro
Lorien

Nov 24 2012, 11:05pm

Post #19 of 41 (396 views)
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True, but Gandalf has to go somewhere, right? nt [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Just because the track is called the Hill of Sorcery doesn't mean the scene necessarily takes place on the Hill of Sorcery. It could be just a reference; pulling a name from the books. If it was called Dol Guldur, it would be a horse of an entirely different colour.

If this is the case, then the scene could instead have something to do with the Nazgūl tombs, which I assume are located in Arnor i.e. Eriador.



Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Nov 24 2012, 11:10pm

Post #20 of 41 (384 views)
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And that somewhere must be near [In reply to] Can't Post

Dol Guldur is waaaaaaaaaay to far for Gandalf to just "go looking ahead" and then return in the nick of time to save the Dwarves. So geographically the Nazgūl tombs located somewhere around Arnor sounds more plausible to me.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Nov 24 2012, 11:40pm

Post #21 of 41 (390 views)
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In the Weta Chronicles book [In reply to] Can't Post

The Nazgul crypt scene is confirmed as taking place sometime between the company's departure from the Shire and their capture by the trolls. So I think that makes it clear the the scene will take place somewhere in Eriador. The real question is whether the fusion of Radagast's theme with that of the frantic spider chase punctuated by the Mordor/Nazgul theme points to Radagast's discovery of Dol Guldur's dirty little secret, and furthermore whether this all happens simultaneously to Gandalf's exploration of the Nazgul crypt or if instead Radagast meets up with the company and relates his discovery in flashback directly to Gandalf. Shots of Gandalf and Radagast walking through a woodland together from the "film cell" merchandise seems to suggest the latter.

I don't know what I'll do when all this speculation ends with the movie's release. I guess it'll all continue with DoS! Smile

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


sycorax82
Rohan

Nov 25 2012, 12:20am

Post #22 of 41 (361 views)
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Gandalf at Dol Guldur could now very well open DoS as a kind of Prologue [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that could work rather well. Then Gandalf awakes from this nightmare, much like Frodo at the start of TTT, and the company continues on and encounters Beorn, all this being the first 10 minutes of DoS.


Vangalad
Lorien


Nov 25 2012, 12:37am

Post #23 of 41 (366 views)
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I will make a guess [In reply to] Can't Post

and say that Radagast is the one who enters Dol Guldur in AUJ.
Clues? Radagast's theme in the ''hill of sorcery'' track, pictures of Radagast in a place that looks to be Dol Guldur and finally a quote from the beginning of the latest v-log :

Quote
Radagast: Show me!

then we see the bird leading the bunny sled most presumably to Dol Guldur...


All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Nov 25 2012, 1:08am

Post #24 of 41 (303 views)
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Bomby Agrees! /// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Nov 25 2012, 1:10am

Post #25 of 41 (329 views)
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Nice to have confirmation the Nazgul tomb is basically standing in for the barrow-downs in this tale... [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems possible IMO:

-Bilbo catches up with Thorin & Co. as they leave Hobbiton
-At night,Gandy goes to scout the road ahead and runs into Raddy at the King's Tomb, the two investigate
-Gandy returns to deal with the Trolls
-After the troll-hoarde, Raddy relates his tale to Gandy concerning what's been happening in Mirkwood (one of Quint's reports mentions Raddy uttering words like "Dol Guldur" and "Ungoliant" here)?

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

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