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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
A few dwarf casualties, please!
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Danielos
Rohan

Nov 24 2012, 11:21am

Post #1 of 36 (1150 views)
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A few dwarf casualties, please! Can't Post

With 13 dwarves and considering the team is encountering trolls, stone giants, goblins and wargs, I thnk it would make sense if a few were killed off in this movie. Having the entire team reach Erebor intact makes the journey less suicidal than it should be. I quite like the idea that in the final battle only like 7-8 of them are still alive. What is the point of them encountering all these dangers if they always get out of it safely?

Also, it would be really nice if Smaug got a few dwarves Before his eventual demise as well.


(This post was edited by Danielos on Nov 24 2012, 11:21am)


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Nov 24 2012, 11:26am

Post #2 of 36 (705 views)
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I've got my fingers crossed [In reply to] Can't Post

For all of the dwarves, Bilbo and Gandalf to be killed during the crockery scene at Bag End. No point messing about.

LR


jtarkey
Rohan


Nov 24 2012, 11:48am

Post #3 of 36 (664 views)
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I think the fact that they all make it to Erebor... [In reply to] Can't Post

Makes getting there sooooo much more of a shock. Sure they go through some perilous situations, but encountering Smaug is sort of their "oh sh**"" moment. It's part of the subtle humour that runs through the book. They were at least aware of all the other dangers, but they really couldn't fathom actually dealing with the dragon.

So I hope they all make it to Erebor intact (which, honestly, I am 99.9% sure will happen). If not though, I guess I wouldn't mind. I stopped comparing these films directly to the book a long time ago. I can still hope for some faithfulness though.

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"


Lightice
Lorien

Nov 24 2012, 12:09pm

Post #4 of 36 (583 views)
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What would it add? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I quite like the idea that in the final battle only like 7-8 of them are still alive. What is the point of them encountering all these dangers if they always get out of it safely?


Dramatic deaths lose their effectiveness if they are overused. What your suggestion would accompish would turn the dwarves from actual protagonists into disposable redshirts. After a first couple going down the audience would lose the emotional connection with them, and would just wait for the next one to drop. PJ already made the mistake of overusing fake deaths in the LotR trilogy. Actual deaths would have worse results still.

There's a reason why you usually only get dead protagonists in the ultimate climax of an epic, and The Hobbit is no exception.


BlackCountry
Rivendell


Nov 24 2012, 12:49pm

Post #5 of 36 (521 views)
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I pray that doesn't happen!!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Please no!!! Mind you it was something I feared that Sir PJ might do but I really hope it'll only be the ones in the book that die. Others don't need to meet that same fate really though I won't hold my breath especially what happened to poor Haldir!!! :(

I do not want what it is not mine.... I only want what comes from within....


Foromir
Rivendell


Nov 24 2012, 12:57pm

Post #6 of 36 (480 views)
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That post was surely made in jest. Was it not? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Danielos
Rohan

Nov 24 2012, 1:17pm

Post #7 of 36 (497 views)
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Silmarillion? [In reply to] Can't Post

Then I suppose you must hate Tolkien stories like "Children of Hurin"?


Lightice
Lorien

Nov 24 2012, 1:29pm

Post #8 of 36 (472 views)
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Different kinds of epics [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Then I suppose you must hate Tolkien stories like "Children of Hurin"?


The Silmarillion and its derivatives read like ancient sagas and don't have a modern-style narrative with a clear beginning, middle and an end. They have their own dramatic conventions that translate poorly to modern storytelling methods, which is one of the reasons why it would be next to impossible to do them justice in film.

But Children of Hrin also doesn't have other main protagonists besides Trin himself. All other characters are secondary, and thus more disposable for the sake of drama. Since it's a story about a tragic hero losing everything he loves, the death toll is acceptable, since each death adds to his anguish, and you can see that effect in his development. You can deduce from Trin's behaviour how the dwarves and Bilbo would actually react if their comrades dropped like flies in meaningless random encounters over the story.


Ffnir
Rohan


Nov 24 2012, 1:35pm

Post #9 of 36 (453 views)
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Why are you so cruel ? What have they done to you ? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 24 2012, 1:36pm

Post #10 of 36 (460 views)
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I don't think more deaths makes for a better film [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a shock enough that three of the company die! Boromir is the only major character to die in the LOTR.

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imin
Valinor


Nov 24 2012, 1:37pm

Post #11 of 36 (458 views)
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Haha brilliant! / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Danielos
Rohan

Nov 24 2012, 1:49pm

Post #12 of 36 (453 views)
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Pity [In reply to] Can't Post

What have Smaug, Great Goblin, Azog and Bolg ever done to you? I feel a little sorry for all these orchs/goblins. They are clearly a somewhat intelligent race and still in the movies they are described as a hideous race which are better wiped out with no remorse.


painjoiker
Grey Havens


Nov 24 2012, 2:00pm

Post #13 of 36 (451 views)
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A actually think Gandalf and Bilbo should die! [In reply to] Can't Post

Because then we will have a real shock when seeing them alive at the beginning of FotR with no explanation what so ever Wink

Vocalist in the semi-progressive metal band Arctic Eclipse


Tim
Tol Eressea


Nov 24 2012, 2:01pm

Post #14 of 36 (412 views)
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Nah. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

-Tim came by. Tim! If you had heard only a quarter of what I have heard about him, and I have only heard very little of all there is to hear, you would be prepared for any sort of remarkable tale.


Ffnir
Rohan


Nov 24 2012, 2:02pm

Post #15 of 36 (428 views)
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They never complained... [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Ffnir
Rohan


Nov 24 2012, 2:02pm

Post #16 of 36 (405 views)
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Good point haha ! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


sherlock
Gondor


Nov 24 2012, 4:59pm

Post #17 of 36 (342 views)
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Lol! (Spoiler in message) [In reply to] Can't Post

It's funny this came up becauseI I just recently realized that all the hot dwarves die-that's not good but I do think the movie should only have the dwarves die that die in the book. That sounds weird.


Arthael
Lorien


Nov 24 2012, 5:54pm

Post #18 of 36 (336 views)
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Death in Bo5A [In reply to] Can't Post

While I certainly hope all 13 make it to the Lonely Mtn, I've always found the aftermath of the Battle of Five Armies to pack a more emotional punch in the Rankin-Bass cartoon. Whereas in the book Thorin and his nephews die (which is no small blow), in the cartoon, only half of the company survives ("Soon there will be only 6...")

As much as I'm sure I won't want to see these characters go, I'm not going to complain if there is a similar bodycount in Jackson's film. Especially because it is a huge melee, not every death could be given the extended drama of Borimir's or Theoden's, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows pt2 proved you can still pack an emotional punch with quick or off camera deaths.

"There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go."


T_Meyers
Bree

Nov 24 2012, 6:02pm

Post #19 of 36 (322 views)
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If the trailer... [In reply to] Can't Post

...is any indication, then all 13 make it to TDOS. Someone has to die (maybe a dwarf, maybe not) at some point in the 2nd film to add some dramatic weight and give the quest a greater sense of gravity to make it seem more desperate. This could give Bilbo added motivation to steal the Arkenstone to try to end all of the fighting.

"Welcome to Novogard Where lands have been shattered from racial division. Where a powerful government has begun its encroachment onto unwilling societies. Where the magical and the technological collide."


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Nov 24 2012, 6:19pm

Post #20 of 36 (326 views)
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SPOILERS there seems to be [In reply to] Can't Post

quite enough added action without the need for a death to add depth to the situation. Killing some dwarves off during the action is very much a horror film mechanism, leaving only a few at the end...boring, predictable seen it all before.

Any deaths earlier or at the BOFA take away from the impact of the death of the 3 that die, especially given their relationship. I will find it quite unforgivable if that aspect of the story doesn't pan out as in the books. It would be so sad and potentially a scene for the ages (think final scene of Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid, Newman & Redford coming out guns blazing) to see Thorin fall and then Fili & Kili defending him to the death with their bodies.


T_Meyers
Bree

Nov 24 2012, 6:57pm

Post #21 of 36 (272 views)
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I'm reminded... [In reply to] Can't Post

...of a quote by PJ on the TTT EE documentary:

"We had the disadvantage of nobody dying at the end. Which sounds like a silly thing to say. But Boromir's death at the end of Fellowship gave us a powerful climax."

So, its not completely unfounded that there could be an unforeseen death at some point in the trilogy.

"Welcome to Novogard Where lands have been shattered from racial division. Where a powerful government has begun its encroachment onto unwilling societies. Where the magical and the technological collide."


There&ThereAgain
Rohan


Nov 24 2012, 7:52pm

Post #22 of 36 (249 views)
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yes [In reply to] Can't Post

thank you. My thoughts exactly.

It's a very comedic moment when Bilbo makes them very aware that they hadn't the slightest idea how to ACTUALLY take back Erebor.

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas


burgahobbit
Rohan


Nov 25 2012, 2:32am

Post #23 of 36 (169 views)
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Yes (spoiler) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Someone has to die (maybe a dwarf, maybe not) at some point in the 2nd film to add some dramatic weight


And that someone should be Radagast.

This task was appointed to youand if you dont find a way, no one will. Lady Galadriel


imin
Valinor


Nov 25 2012, 2:42am

Post #24 of 36 (163 views)
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what! [In reply to] Can't Post

why poor Radagast? Surely Tauriel would be a better candidate?


painjoiker
Grey Havens


Nov 25 2012, 2:58am

Post #25 of 36 (156 views)
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Why haven't I thought of that before?!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

It's simple... we kill the elf-woman! Wink

Vocalist in the semi-progressive metal band Arctic Eclipse

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