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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Thoughts on Apparent Film Changes to Dwarven History (Spoilers)
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Shagrat
Gondor

Nov 22 2012, 12:38pm

Post #1 of 29 (1238 views)
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Thoughts on Apparent Film Changes to Dwarven History (Spoilers) Can't Post

So we already knew about this change of Thrain being captured in Moria as he and Balin lead an expedition to reclaim Khazad-Dum. Now it emerged last night from the WETA book that Thror would appear to be taking part in the Battle of Azanulbizar (or Battle of Moria as it appears to be termed). I believe this tallies with what Richard Armitage said in an interview about Thror being decapitated or killed in battle by Azog. This is obviously another fairly big change. Thror's death will probably substitute for Nain's, and serve as a catalyst for a Dwarven push - on the soundtrack we hear some sad music before the pounding version of 'Thorin's Theme' with chanting behind it, as though he is leading the Dwarves in a charge. Of course that's just my interpretation of the music - it might be set to something completely different.

Personal feelings about these changes aside, I'm wondering how the film will reconcile these events. In one of the Vlogs we see Thorin and Thrain leading troops into combat, but this is almost certainly at Erebor given the architecture in the background, and so presumably during Smaug's attack. That got me wondering if they might change things so that Smaug's attack happened later, but I don't think this will be the case, since the track 'My Dear Frodo' contains what appears to be 'Smaug's Theme' at a relatively early stage. This would suggest that Thror might merely sit this one out. Plus we then have that footage of what appears to be Thror among Dwarven refugees. I suspect it might be here where Thrain loses an eye rather than at Azanulbizar, if he does at all.

Now I'm wondering if Thrain might take Thror's role in igniting the Dwarven conflict with the Goblins. Not in the sense that it'll be him killed and have 'AZOG' carved into his forehead, but that it is then he and Balin lead an expedition to Moria but Thrain is captured while Balin manages to escape and return to the tale, perhaps taking the role of Nar. Then it is Thror who leads the Dwarves to Moria in an effort to reclaim or avenge Thrain. Perhaps Thorin is even crowned following the victory.

Admittedly we have the issue of Thror's map and key - perhaps Thrain would take them and they'd be later found in Moria by Gandalf, providing he does indeed not encounter Thrain at Dol Guldur prior to the timeline of the films. But otherwise I struggle to see A) How they would explain the origins of the Dwarf-Goblin war without Thror's proper demise and B) Why Thrain and Balin would return to Moria so soon after Azanulbizar, especially if they adhere to the book in having a Dwarf (probably not Dain) sight the Balrog after the battle.

Anyway these are just my thoughts. I can't help but think they have only complicated things by changing the fates of Thror and Thrain, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it all pans out. This all hinges on whether or not these tie-in books are correct. Things may have changed since they were written.


(This post was edited by Shagrat on Nov 22 2012, 12:39pm)


Fardragon
Rohan

Nov 22 2012, 3:11pm

Post #2 of 29 (558 views)
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(re)order of events [In reply to] Can't Post

A couple of possibilities:

A:
1) Fall of Erebor
2) Thrain and Balin lead an expedition into Moria. They encounter the balrog. Thrain is captured, Balin escapes and brings word to Thror.
3) Thror leads an army against Moria. He falls in battle and is beheaded and mutilated by Azog.
4) Thorin takes command and defeats Azog. However, without the Arkenstone he cannot be crowned king, and as a result the dwarves won't follow him to reclaim Moria.
5) Gandalf enters Moria and finds Thrain prisoner.

or B:
1) Fall of Erebor
2) Thror leads an army to reclaim Moria. He falls in battle and is beheaded and mutilated by Azog.
3) Thrain takes command and defeats Azog.
4) Thrain and Balin lead an expedition into Moria. Young Thorin is left on the surface. They encounter the balrog. Thrain is captured, Balin escapes and brings word to Thorin.
5) Even though Thrain is presumed dead, without the Arkenstone, Thorin cannot be crowned king.
6) Gandalf enters Moria and finds Thrain prisoner.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...

(This post was edited by Fardragon on Nov 22 2012, 3:12pm)


Shagrat
Gondor

Nov 22 2012, 3:33pm

Post #3 of 29 (478 views)
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A) is interesting [In reply to] Can't Post

I almost forgot about the Arkenstone in all of this.

The more I listen to 'My Dear Frodo' the more convinced I am that the prologue will actually consist of little more than Smaug's attack on Erebor. I suspect we'll get further flashbacks throughout the film chronicling what then became of Thorin's line and the Dwarf-Goblin conflict. Bilbo asking Thorin why they call him 'Oakenshield' serves as a great lead-in to Azanulbizar, for example.


Jago M
Bree

Nov 22 2012, 3:33pm

Post #4 of 29 (476 views)
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I would go with B [In reply to] Can't Post

But what about the map and the key?
And Gandalf fighting this dwarvish-character in what seems to be Dol Goldur? Is Thrain transported to Dol Goldur at one point?

BTW, when we see Thorin leading troops into combat in one of the vlogs, I don't think it is at Erebor. Or beter I don't think it is at Erebor prior to the quest, iow when Smaug attacks. It's at the Moria gates during battle of Azanulbizar, or at bo5a


DarkJackal
Rohan


Nov 22 2012, 3:47pm

Post #5 of 29 (467 views)
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Reason I think... [In reply to] Can't Post

...that the vlog image of Thorin and Thrain (so happy to get that confirmed finally) leading the army is really at Erebor is based on the rest of the clips in the vlog that appear to me to be of the same set. This in particular:
http://heirsofdurin.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/v8-32-copy.jpg

Looks to me like Thror on the throne. I can't see them sitting around like that in Moria.

The Hobbit Photo Gallery


Carne
Tol Eressea

Nov 22 2012, 3:51pm

Post #6 of 29 (468 views)
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The strong orange light seen in the vlog also makes me believe it's during Smaug's attack [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Elessar
Valinor


Nov 22 2012, 4:20pm

Post #7 of 29 (427 views)
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B makes more sense [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that's the likely path that we will see in just a few weeks.



Jago M
Bree

Nov 22 2012, 4:40pm

Post #8 of 29 (400 views)
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What vlog was that again? [In reply to] Can't Post

I need to see it again I think.
So would this be Thorin leading the army to meet Smaug? Although they make no chance at all against him?


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 22 2012, 4:42pm

Post #9 of 29 (407 views)
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Vlog #8 [In reply to] Can't Post

Here you are

Smile

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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Nov 22 2012, 5:19pm

Post #10 of 29 (402 views)
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According to the soundtrack... [In reply to] Can't Post

My interpretation of the music is a bit different to yours. During the first track "My dear Frodo" we hear different themes, that tells us a bit

ATTENTION! THERE ARE SEVERAL SOUNDTRACK-SPOILERS WITHIN THE FOLLOWING TEXT:

Of course it starts with the Shire-Theme (I'm sure it all will begin with Old Bilbo and Frodo just before FOTR) then it changes to a sad melody that also contains the dwarven-/Thorin-theme (which appears again and again through the whole soundtrack). At about 3:30 we got female voices and than it changes to dark male ones (dwarven or goblins). At 4:15 it changes dramaticallly to a dark/evil 6 note theme. I'm pretty sure it's Smaugs theme (heavy spoiler: it appears in the last seconds of "A Good Omen" just before Neil Finns credit song starts... what possibly means that we got a hint of Smaug at the end of AUJ). So one of the first things we possibly got to see in the prologue (what makes absolutely sense to me) is the attack of Smaug on Erebor and the unsuccesful try óf the dwarves to stop him
. I'm sure that the vlog#8-footage with Thorin leading a troop of dwarves into battle might be a try to stop the dragon. That's perhaps why it looks like Erebor. Later within this track we hear the music alternating between Thorins theme and Smaugs theme. And then it's over. I'm not sure if we are going to see the Battle of Azanulbizar in the prologue. According to the Soundtrack it is not.

BUT we know that the score wasn't completely finished when we first get the opportunity to hear the full score. Also there are the exclusive bonus tracks "Erebor" and "The Dwarf Lords" which I didn't hear yet (except the previews). Perhaps there is Azanulbizar stuff in. Perhaps a longer version of the prologue-music of "My dear Frodo"? Who knows?

PERHAPS it's because of one of the script-changes that we now got Erebor AND Azanulbizar in the prologue of AUJ what was not part of the plan earlier when Shore released the CD-Soundtrack?



"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."

(This post was edited by Lieutenant of Dol Guldur on Nov 22 2012, 5:19pm)


Jago M
Bree

Nov 22 2012, 5:27pm

Post #11 of 29 (357 views)
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Thanks a lot! [In reply to] Can't Post

It could be the same set, but I'm not convinced it is though.
If that's Thrain II flanking Thorin, and that really could be the case, why does he already has the eye-scar? (At least thats what it looks like to me).

Also the dwarven architecture is very similar in both Erebor and Moria, no? If you compare the collumns in Moria with the ones in Smaug's liar for instance

But I can't see the reason why they would lead an army in or outside Erebor. Smaug's attack on the mountain combined with an other enemy attacking? I can't come up with something plausible


Shagrat
Gondor

Nov 22 2012, 5:28pm

Post #12 of 29 (364 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

As I said in my second post friend I now concur that the track as appears on the soundtrack appears to score only Smaug's attack on Erebor. I think Azanulbizar might turn up elsewhere in the film, if the soundtrack is anything to go by.


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Nov 22 2012, 5:35pm

Post #13 of 29 (355 views)
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Oh yes! There it is ;-) [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry I overlooked your second post. But I think that the exclusive bonus tracks "Erebor" and "The Dwarf Lords" will tell us more about the history of the dwarves for sure!

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Shagrat
Gondor

Nov 22 2012, 5:43pm

Post #14 of 29 (345 views)
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Hopefully [In reply to] Can't Post

Their placement as 'Bonus Tracks' is certainly intriguing though. Hopefully we'll see the glory of the Dwarves in the film with this music accompanying the scenes.


Fardragon
Rohan

Nov 22 2012, 6:02pm

Post #15 of 29 (325 views)
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I agree. [In reply to] Can't Post

One thing to consider, if you are going to fight an airborne opponent, you would equip yourself with missile weapons, not melee weapons.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Grey Havens


Nov 22 2012, 6:06pm

Post #16 of 29 (344 views)
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Why Gandalf goes that way (Spoiler)? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is he entering Moria, I thought we went to DolGuldur and found Thrain, is there any confirmation that he will enter Moria?
They could just transport Thrain from Moria to DolGuldur?

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Nov 22 2012, 6:11pm

Post #17 of 29 (338 views)
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Why there will be 4 exclusive bonus tracks ;-) [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it is just because these scenes weren't part of the earlier script of AUJ. Know losing Beorn, Mirkwood, Thranduils palace to DOF Peter Jackson had to fill the gap in AUJ. I think he decided to put more of the dwarven history in AUJ. But Shore already composed the score for the earlier script version and also he released gave the original tracks over to the guys who produce the CDs. Before the tracklist was released PJ decided to change a little bit of the script (dwarven history etc).

Shore calling the CD producer-guys:

Shore: "Hey guys... what about the CDs?"
"We just finished the CD Standard and the 2CD Deluxe edition. Why?"
Shore: "Well... Peter decided to put in some more dwarven stuff and I composed one or two new tracks"
"One or two?"
Shore: "Four actually... is there any chance for me to release them?"
"Howard.. you know... it would be to expensive to change everything again... Bye"
Shore: "Wait...What about... calling them Exclusive Bonus Tracks?"
"Hmm.. yeah. Let's put them on our list but till the film is out we just can give a preview of them. Allright?"
Shore: "Great guys. Thanks!"

That's why there will be 4 exclusive bonus tracksTongue


"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Fardragon
Rohan

Nov 22 2012, 6:19pm

Post #18 of 29 (324 views)
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I don't think Gandalf will enter Dol Guldur before the film begins. [In reply to] Can't Post

Otherwise he will look like a bit of a twit when he gradually uncovers the evil later on.

So Gandalf's encounter with Thrain is transplanted to Moria. This also becomes Gandalf's previous trip through Moria that is mentioned in LotR.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Macfeast
Rohan


Nov 22 2012, 7:01pm

Post #19 of 29 (315 views)
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There's also... [In reply to] Can't Post

...this shot, which features what looks to be some sort of scribe's desk, with papers and pens (I shan't take credit for this discovery, I merely remembered someone else pointing it out). To me, that suggests firstly an indoor location, and secondly Erebor, as the orcs inhabiting Moria surely wouldn't set up a desk just past the gate to greet visitors.

Now, going against a foe like Smaug with melee weapons seems like a folly task, but it could just be that Smaug had come down to the ground for whatever reason (maybe to lure the dwarves out of the gate, or to crawl into Erebor), and the dwarves decided to take the opportunity to meet him head on. Alternatively, either as a distraction to buy time for the women and children, or just in a moment of desperation, they decided to throw everything they have against him, infantryman and archer alike.


DarkJackal
Rohan


Nov 22 2012, 7:26pm

Post #20 of 29 (278 views)
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Desk [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah I can't see a desk and quills having a place right at the gate of Moria, so more reason to doubt it is.

The Hobbit Photo Gallery


DarkJackal
Rohan


Nov 22 2012, 7:39pm

Post #21 of 29 (283 views)
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It would be a shame... [In reply to] Can't Post

...to lose the part of the story where Thror wanders like a total nutcase into Moria, and all the orcs are like "Can you believe this guy?" I think that's why they took a while to dispatch him. They were laughing too hard.

But joking aside, I think it would have made it interesting for the future of Thorin, and the safety of the Company. If we are shown that dwarf kings can go insane and do reckless things because they feel unfulfilled, then there is no telling what Thorin might choose to do.

The Hobbit Photo Gallery


Macfeast
Rohan


Nov 22 2012, 7:45pm

Post #22 of 29 (274 views)
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Whereas a desk just past the gate of a still inhabited Erebor, ... [In reply to] Can't Post

...greeting and registering new arrivals, makes much more sense. For it to be Moria, the desk would have to have been left untouched by both orcs, and time (it looks to be in a fairly good condition), and Thorin's battalion would somehow have to end up inside Moria. Possible, granted, but to me, it seems more likely that the desk is something they pass on their way out of Erebor, rather than something still standing unspoiled in Moria, a place which Thorin's batallion somehow end up entering.


Macfeast
Rohan


Nov 22 2012, 8:00pm

Post #23 of 29 (263 views)
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Not to mention what happens thereafter. [In reply to] Can't Post

Nár finding Thrór's branded head (or a more PG-friendly version of it), and the orcs mockingly throwing him a coinpurse for "begging". In my eyes, one of the most iconic moments of dwarven history, and something I would miss dearly if left out.

Good point about how it could play into Thorin's character-arc. Granted, we might get some of that still if Thráin is, at some point, depicted as going mad, but having both Thrór and Thráin doing so would just make it even more highlighted; Will Thorin avoid the fate that befell both his father, AND his grandfather?


(This post was edited by Macfeast on Nov 22 2012, 8:01pm)


DarkJackal
Rohan


Nov 22 2012, 8:14pm

Post #24 of 29 (264 views)
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With the name Defiler... [In reply to] Can't Post

...I would think Azog will have done something along those lines to earn it. People kill each other all the time, but not everyone gets creative afterward.

The Hobbit Photo Gallery


Ardamírë
Valinor


Nov 22 2012, 9:18pm

Post #25 of 29 (281 views)
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It is a shame [In reply to] Can't Post

I, too, love the imagery of a crazed Thror wanders around the in the wild. It'll be a shame if we do lose that.

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales

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