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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Timeline and dwarf age alterations *Spoilers* from the Visual Companion
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DarkJackal
Rohan


Nov 20 2012, 10:03pm

Post #1 of 35 (1148 views)
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Timeline and dwarf age alterations *Spoilers* from the Visual Companion Can't Post

The Visual Companion by Jude Fisher revealed several spoilers, such as where Thrain disappeared to. This was discussed already in this thread. But I wanted to add a bit more about the changes made to the ages of the dwarves, and/or the moving around of events on the timeline.




Balin:
“Balin the most venerable dwarf of the Company, rumored to be 178 years of age at the beginning of the quest....Balin was there at the Front Gate of the Lonely Mountain with King Thrain and the young prince Thorin when Smaug descended in flame and fire, and he saw the town of Dale destroyed. He also accompanied Thrain on the doomed expedition to regain the kingdom of Khazad-dum, when his king was captured by Goblins and lost to his people.
Since then, Balin has been like a father to Thorin Oakenshield, and is the one Thorin turns to first for advice and support in times of doubt. And as the elder statesman of the group, he often acts as the second in command and drafter of official contracts.”


So at least here, Balin is the same age as in the Appendices. They also state that Oin is 167, and under the section about Gloin, that Gimli is 62 (and too young for the journey). They don't give an age on Dwalin, but he is older than Thorin.


Dwalin:
“Younger brother to Balin and another of the senior members of the Company is Dwalin. He and Thorin Oakenshield grew up as childhood friends, though he is some years older than the king-in-waiting. Together they have shared the bitter travails of exile, and plenty of hard action, having fought their way through innumerable Goblins and Orcs. Through it all, he remains Thorin's staunchest supporter and maintains an unshakeable belief in his friend's leadership.”


So Thorin is just as young as he looks, completely destroying my previous arguments about Durin's heir being older but looking younger due to good genes. Ah well.


With all of this in mind, I'm beginning to think that clip from vlog 8 of the younger Thorin leading an army up the steps of a place that looks like the set of Erebor, probably really is the Front Gate of Erebor at the coming of the dragon, as opposed to the Front Gate of Moria (which they are also supposed to have a go at). I've been assuming that “young prince” meant what it would have in the book, that Thorin was just a kid and too young to fight during Smaug's coming. But if we take the bit of information from the Hobbit app on the other thread (which has been moved to here) as film accurate, the dwarves have been waiting only 60 years for a chance to get back Erebor. (Wow. Where did that 100 extra years go?) So Thorin could still have been young for a dwarf (like Gimli at 62!) but not by our standards.


Of course this shortened timeline affects the people of Dale and Laketown most since it is within a human lifetime that they lost everything.


Oh, ShireHorse, if you are reading this. You were right. Wink I'm pretty sure you suggested all of this to me at some point, but I didn't want to accept it.

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Antalasse
The Shire


Nov 20 2012, 10:17pm

Post #2 of 35 (578 views)
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Looks like it [In reply to] Can't Post

While the Warner Brothers App (which offered to create one's image as a dwarf) was loading it said "The dwarves waited for 60 years to take back Erebor". I was confused when I saw this, but now looks like it is the official timeline.

...in every wood in every spring there is a different green...(c)


Shagrat
Gondor

Nov 20 2012, 10:18pm

Post #3 of 35 (630 views)
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This 'expedition to reclaim Khazad Dum'... [In reply to] Can't Post

Is anyone else worried they'll tie Azanulbizar in with this, i.e. Thrain gets captured and perhaps the Dwarves are locked outside the gate? Is Thror mentioned at all? I know he's been cast but it would be reassuring to read in the movie tie-in books about his fate.

I don't mind this thing about Thrain being captured in Moria but it must surely happen after Azanulbizar.


Macfeast
Rohan


Nov 20 2012, 10:27pm

Post #4 of 35 (554 views)
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Wondering about Bard. [In reply to] Can't Post

Is the change in timeline supposed to make things more personal for him, maybe making Girion a more direct relative than he was in the book, like his grandfather (or even father, perhaps)?


ShireHorse
Rohan

Nov 20 2012, 10:30pm

Post #5 of 35 (520 views)
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Here I am, DJ! [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, it's nice to be proved right, I suppose. I think it fits in with the requirements of film but I'm sorry if people are upset about it.

However, another prediction of mine is that, once we have all watched the three films and have seen how they all fit together, most people will agree that PJ has done the right thing in order to give the story a sensible coherency for the movie-going public. And I don't think this is necessarily pandering to the lowest common denominator.

I am interested now in seeing how the story of the men of Dale pans out.


Antalasse
The Shire


Nov 20 2012, 10:32pm

Post #6 of 35 (526 views)
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It just occured to me [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe that's why the Dale we saw in the Vlogs looked relatively intact? It could be they made it that way just for some flashbacks - but why did Alan Lee called it an "abandoned city"?

...in every wood in every spring there is a different green...(c)


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Nov 20 2012, 10:34pm

Post #7 of 35 (543 views)
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PJ seems to have a thing about 60 years... [In reply to] Can't Post

60 years between The Hobbit and his LotR - and now 60 years since Smaug descended on Erebor...does he think the cinema-going public can't digest a bigger time period than that??? Frown


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort






Welsh hero
Gondor


Nov 20 2012, 10:39pm

Post #8 of 35 (499 views)
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Let the film speak for it's self [In reply to] Can't Post

some of the facts in the book could just be wrong.

Just wait, we'll find out in a month or so

-Irfon

Twitter: @IrfonPennant
middle earth timeline FB: https://www.facebook.com/MiddleEarth1


DarkJackal
Rohan


Nov 20 2012, 10:44pm

Post #9 of 35 (519 views)
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I think Thror... [In reply to] Can't Post

...still gets done in by Azog. Or at least that was the plan as of July of this year. In the EW.com interview at Comic-con (about the middle of the video), Richard Armitage said that Thror was beheaded by Azog during battle.

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DarkJackal
Rohan


Nov 20 2012, 10:45pm

Post #10 of 35 (470 views)
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What would be the fun of that?? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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DarkJackal
Rohan


Nov 20 2012, 10:47pm

Post #11 of 35 (486 views)
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I would say that might be the very reason for the change, yes [In reply to] Can't Post

Just my guess.

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iduna
Rivendell


Nov 20 2012, 10:57pm

Post #12 of 35 (452 views)
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I'm glad to have this new timeline explained to me [In reply to] Can't Post

since I had been assuming that the information reported elsewhere was correct. I thought Thorin was older than he looked, that Dwalin was born after Smaug invaded Erebor, and so on. It's very confusing to keep all these different histories straight.

Thanks for clarifying this, DJ.


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Nov 20 2012, 11:01pm

Post #13 of 35 (456 views)
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Your topics are always worth clicking [In reply to] Can't Post

because you always have something substantial to say.

Interesting if they've modified the timeline. I too suspected the Dwarves of the line of Durin would look younger than their age due to heritage, but oh well.

They might have done this either to justify younger Thorin, or as mentioned above, to make it more personal for Bard and the rest of the Daleans.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


DarkJackal
Rohan


Nov 20 2012, 11:09pm

Post #14 of 35 (422 views)
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I only minded [In reply to] Can't Post

...the shrinking of the timeline because I felt they would make all the dwarves younger as a result. If most are still the same age, then I'm not as bothered. By human standards, dwarves have epically long lives, so I would hate to lose that overall feeling.

The changes to Thorin's age will matter to the character, but perhaps more in his interactions with Balin and Dwalin than anything else. In this case, I look forward to seeing how it will play out since it means burdening Thorin with yet more conflict by (most likely) not following the advice of his respected elders at certain crucial moments.

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Kassandros
Rohan


Nov 20 2012, 11:20pm

Post #15 of 35 (412 views)
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I find these age changes strange, but will give PJ a chance. [In reply to] Can't Post

In LOTR, one of the biggest changes was making Frodo much younger than in the book. I though Elijah Wood did a great job and that this change worked out, though I'd also be open to an older Frodo as well.

Gimli, on the other hand, felt too old in the movie compared to his portrayal in the book.

Perhaps Thorin would have not been believable as the oldest member and also still a great warrior and a bold leader. It's a change, but perhaps the new age better reflects the pathos of the character in the story. It's much more important to capture the spirit of the work than the details.

all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us...


Demosthenes
Sr. Staff


Nov 20 2012, 11:49pm

Post #16 of 35 (384 views)
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timeline compression [In reply to] Can't Post

"Of course this shortened timeline affects the people of Dale and Laketown most since it is within a human lifetime that they lost everything. "

Bard son of Girion? Grandson of Girion?

Erebor as a kingdom would seem less far legendary, and almost tangible. And that m,ight sway the townsfolk more easily to support Thorin when the company first arrives.

The oldest there might even remember Thorin.

Timeline compression is something Jackson indulges a lot. We see this in FOTR when Gandalf goes to Minas Tirith. We also have seen 60 years or so lopped off Gollum's age, too (according to Serkis)

TheOneRing.net Senior Staff
IRC Admin and Hall of Fire moderator


Demosthenes
Sr. Staff


Nov 20 2012, 11:50pm

Post #17 of 35 (364 views)
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+1 to comment /// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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sycorax82
Rohan

Nov 21 2012, 1:51am

Post #18 of 35 (313 views)
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This is going to work really well for the films [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it adds a lot more to Thorin's character if he isn't the oldest of the Dwarves. It creates a certain situation with Dwalin and Balin being wiser and more experienced than the King so he needs to look to them for advice. It makes Thorin more vulnerable.

In the book that wasn't needed at all, but the Dwarves are going to have much more depth, and Thorin in particular needs to come across as far more interesting than Tolkien ever described him!


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 21 2012, 2:44am

Post #19 of 35 (309 views)
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Either the Companion or the guide says Thorin is over 150 years old, [In reply to] Can't Post

so while he is younger than Balin's 178, he is not enormously younger.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


Nov 21 2012, 2:52am

Post #20 of 35 (305 views)
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Oh man oh man... these are --huge-- timeline changes!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Serious ramifications here...
an extra 100 years makes a -whole- lot of difference in Tolkien-timeline terms...
to see that disappear.. well... I find it frankly ridiculous....

buuut oh well... Just hope it works for the sake of the film lol.... -_-

--I'm a victim of Bifurcation--
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Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!
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Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


Nov 21 2012, 2:55am

Post #21 of 35 (300 views)
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Yep, that maketh sense... father or gramps... ... way too close for my liking.. [In reply to] Can't Post

as it would not mean that there would be enough time for the populace of Dale/Esgaroth to forget that Bard's family is of Royal lineage...
which is a part of the excitement of Bard coming to fruition if you know what I mean..
that his family had become much less known to other peeps...

--I'm a victim of Bifurcation--
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Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!
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Finrod
Rohan


Nov 21 2012, 3:12am

Post #22 of 35 (301 views)
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Frodo was *not* much younger in the film! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In LOTR, one of the biggest changes was making Frodo much younger than in the book. I though Elijah Wood did a great job and that this change worked out, though I'd also be open to an older Frodo as well.


That isn’t true. Frodo received the One when he “came of age” at 33, which is equivalent to our 21 — at which point he stops getting any older.

Sure, Elijah was a couple of years younger than that, but he was in no fashion “made much younger” than he was in the book.

He was supposed to look as though he were just barely old enough to order a beer. Which he did.

Why people keep repeating that Jackson made Frodo much younger I simply do not understand. It just isn’t true.

However, one thing that was lost was the generation gap between Frodo and the other hobbits.

…all eyes looked upon the ring; for he held it now aloft, and the green jewels gleamed there that the Noldor had devised in Valinor. For this ring was like to twin serpents, whose eyes were emeralds, and their heads met beneath a crown of golden flowers, that the one upheld and the other devoured; that was the badge of Finarfin and his house.
The Silmarillion, pp 150-151
while Felagund laughs beneath the trees
in Valinor and comes no more
to this grey world of tears and war.
The Lays of Beleriand, p 311




DarkJackal
Rohan


Nov 21 2012, 3:17am

Post #23 of 35 (286 views)
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I thought I read that somewhere [In reply to] Can't Post

But I can't find the exact source at the moment. If someone does happen to find it, let me know.

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Finrod
Rohan


Nov 21 2012, 3:17am

Post #24 of 35 (303 views)
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Thrór has been dethroned [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Balin was there at the Front Gate of the Lonely Mountain with King Thrain and the young prince Thorin when Smaug descended in flame and fire, and he saw the town of Dale destroyed.


Now I wonder why they made Thráin king instead of Thrór. Odd.

…all eyes looked upon the ring; for he held it now aloft, and the green jewels gleamed there that the Noldor had devised in Valinor. For this ring was like to twin serpents, whose eyes were emeralds, and their heads met beneath a crown of golden flowers, that the one upheld and the other devoured; that was the badge of Finarfin and his house.
The Silmarillion, pp 150-151
while Felagund laughs beneath the trees
in Valinor and comes no more
to this grey world of tears and war.
The Lays of Beleriand, p 311




DarkJackal
Rohan


Nov 21 2012, 3:19am

Post #25 of 35 (281 views)
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Bard [In reply to] Can't Post

That would be a change to the feel of Bard for sure.

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